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Caltrops Change not recomended

KageNin
KageNin
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Hello all id like to discuss Caltrops change this patch.

1.Its a universal skill that every class has access to ( if we were to replace it with class skills it will create even more imbalance in Class DPS).
2. Unlike Soul trap which is apparently being changed next update (might be a typo but patch notes clearly say next update not next PTS Update) its not OP skill it deals decent amount of damage and fits perfectly in a stamina dd rotation.
3. For many years it has been a Must-Have for every stam dd adding extra damage without any extra effects.(Doesn't proc enchants or poisons,nor gives any extra buff once cast)
4. It seems to follow different pattern then any other DOT skill in the game for instance:
Poison arrow: Shoot an arrow coated in Baandari poison at an enemy, dealing 549 Poison Damage and an additional 1020 Poison Damage over 10 seconds
Twin Slashes : Slice an enemy with both weapons to cause deep lacerations, dealing 230 Physical Damage with each weapon and causing them to bleed for an additional 1275 Physical Damage over 10 seconds
Destructive Touch : Devastate an enemy with an enhanced charge from your staff, dealing 477 Magic Damage and an additional 610 Magic Damage over 8 seconds. Flame Touch knocks the enemy back. Frost Touch immobilizes the enemy. Shock Touch stuns the enemy.
And so on and so forth. But from those skills and many others we can assume that DOT ability standard should be ''Deals X amount of damage, and Y amount of damage over Zs''
Now true theres many other abilities that we may consider dots like Wall of elements, but firstly its a Weapon ability and given that it procs enchantements i understand lack of Damage upfront (Although Unstable Wall of Elements follows reversed yet the same pattern as it deals fixed amount of damage upon expiring, as well as procs enchants or poisons)
5.To be obtained it forces PVE players to venture into PVP areas,and yes im aware Undaunted and Alliance skill lines will be purchasable next patch but i hope DEV's will retract those changes as its healthy to players to venture into unknown sides of the game.
6.4 seconds of Major fracture is utterly useless as sets like Night Mother's Gaze or Necromancers ability Unnerving Boneyard exist. If this ability was to be used in PVP to actualy be useful it would require different buffs like Minor Breach and Minor Fracture.And yes there will be a set that provides that but at least you would be able to chose a set or put this skill.Now i understand that DEV's wanted this skill to be more used in PVP but at least please seperate the morphs so we can carry on using this skill in every stam dps rotation like we used to.

And for those who would say ,,ITS A PVP SKILL'' well so are orbs,blood altar and passives from Undaunted a PVE skill, so i dont care.
Edited by KageNin on July 27, 2019 10:26AM
  • Austinseph1
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    I don’t have to touch PvP to do well in PvE now? Sounds good to me.
    Edited by Austinseph1 on July 27, 2019 1:36AM
  • wheem_ESO
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    I just don't understand why they buffed the AOE snare for PvP, especially so soon after nerfing Magicka's AOE snare option(s).
  • Dusk_Coven
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    I think some kind of change is needed to make a PvP skill not be a go-to skill for all stamina characters. Alliance War skills should focus on the unique circumstances of Alliance War rather than generalized combat. But that's really a broader subject.
    If they want to rework Calthrops specifically, I'd recommend they start with that objective and redo the skill.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on July 27, 2019 2:50AM
  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    I think some kind of change is needed to make a PvP skill not be a go-to skill for all stamina characters. Alliance War skills should focus on the unique circumstances of Alliance War rather than generalized combat. But that's really a broader subject.
    If they want to rework Calthrops specifically, I'd recommend they start with that objective and redo the skill.

    Should warhorn purge andvigor get the same treatment?
  • D0PAMINE
    D0PAMINE
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    I liked using Caltrops.
  • satanio
    satanio
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    I hated caltrops. 10 out of 10 would somehow screw with Bar swap or weaved LA.
    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs)
    DW&Bow
    DW&2H
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow

    Current public mag parses on Iron Atro (esologs)
    (non cheese)
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • idk
    idk
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    I think some kind of change is needed to make a PvP skill not be a go-to skill for all stamina characters. Alliance War skills should focus on the unique circumstances of Alliance War rather than generalized combat. But that's really a broader subject.
    If they want to rework Calthrops specifically, I'd recommend they start with that objective and redo the skill.

    Should warhorn purge andvigor get the same treatment?

    That is not going to happen. Besides it being obvious Zos put those skills into AvA for a very specific reason, get people to try PvP if they want to be serious, they would have to destroy WH to make it not desirable and then it becomes junk and without purge it will limit what classes can truly heal some trials.
  • Nordic__Knights
    Nordic__Knights
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    idk wrote: »
    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    I think some kind of change is needed to make a PvP skill not be a go-to skill for all stamina characters. Alliance War skills should focus on the unique circumstances of Alliance War rather than generalized combat. But that's really a broader subject.
    If they want to rework Calthrops specifically, I'd recommend they start with that objective and redo the skill.

    Should warhorn purge andvigor get the same treatment?

    That is not going to happen. Besides it being obvious Zos put those skills into AvA for a very specific reason, get people to try PvP if they want to be serious, they would have to destroy WH to make it not desirable and then it becomes junk and without purge it will limit what classes can truly heal some trials.

    I think he was talking more about the fact that people want to say that this skill or that skill belongs in this area or that area not that it really wants it to be changed throughout all the skills from that skill line it's really becoming *** to always have to hear that that's a PVP skill or that's a PVE skill no they are a game skill it's all part of the same game just different aspects of the game you understand the word game PVP and PVE are not the game ESO is the game
    Edited by Nordic__Knights on July 27, 2019 4:58AM
  • leepalmer95
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    Its a pvp skill and is now more useful to pvp, like it used to be.

    It's now a good aoe frecture with a good snare.

    Don't see what the issue is.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • Saril_Durzam
    Saril_Durzam
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    Its a pvp skill and is now more useful to pvp, like it used to be.

    It's now a good aoe frecture with a good snare.

    Don't see what the issue is.

    +1
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    idk wrote: »
    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    I think some kind of change is needed to make a PvP skill not be a go-to skill for all stamina characters. Alliance War skills should focus on the unique circumstances of Alliance War rather than generalized combat. But that's really a broader subject.
    If they want to rework Calthrops specifically, I'd recommend they start with that objective and redo the skill.

    Should warhorn purge andvigor get the same treatment?

    That is not going to happen. Besides it being obvious Zos put those skills into AvA for a very specific reason, get people to try PvP if they want to be serious, they would have to destroy WH to make it not desirable and then it becomes junk and without purge it will limit what classes can truly heal some trials.

    I think he was talking more about the fact that people want to say that this skill or that skill belongs in this area or that area not that it really wants it to be changed throughout all the skills from that skill line it's really becoming *** to always have to hear that that's a PVP skill or that's a PVE skill no they are a game skill it's all part of the same game just different aspects of the game you understand the word game PVP and PVE are not the game ESO is the game

    You can dislike hearing it all you want.

    Doesn't mean it isn't true.

    Pvp gets 2 skill lines, so yeah the skills in them should be more useful for pvp and changes made should help that. If its useful in pve that that good too i guess.

    The only reason they changed it in the first place was because stamina was far behind magicka in regards to pve dps at the time and zos in their infinite wisdom decided to give stamina a non class, non weapon strong aoe dot. By changing one of 12 pvp skills to suit pve.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • LiquidPony
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    Really don't understand basically any of the points being made here.

    1. So is Soul Trap.
    2. There is not a significant difference in DPS between Soul Trap and Caltrops *except* against a single target buffed by Cruel Flurry.
    3. So? So is Soul Trap.
    4. Not really sure what this means. Plenty of DoTs have upfront damage, like Shadow Silk and Scalding Rune.
    5. What happened to #5?
    6. PvE Stam players are still going to have to PvP for Vigor.
    7. The Fracture isn't useless. Just because you can get AoE fracture elsewhere doesn't mean you always want to. The duration should be longer, though.

    Soul Trap is fine. It's a big sustain buff because Caltrops is expensive and Soul Trap is essentially free because it's an off-resource skill.

    This when post reads like you don't like the change because you simply don't like change. There's no convincing argument here.
  • Dusk_Coven
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    The only reason they changed it in the first place was because stamina was far behind magicka in regards to pve dps at the time and zos in their infinite wisdom decided to give stamina a non class, non weapon strong aoe dot. By changing one of 12 pvp skills to suit pve.

    So ZOS screws up stamina classes and piggy-backs a fix somewhere else where they could find room.
    Meanwhile, magicka PvE players breathe a sigh of relief that they don't have to grind PvP for a fix.
    Not the best planning, IMO. But I guess by then they'd dug themselves a hole.
    Looks like buying skill lines is going to be a hit.

    If it genuinely is a skill trying to rescue stamina builds with a skill -- how about tweaking to level 0 then and making it immediately available when you unlock the skill line? The XP needed to progress it doesn't necessarily have to change, just the skill line level at which it unlocks.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on July 27, 2019 9:25AM
  • KageNin
    KageNin
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    There fixed numeration error, now I'm not saying I don't like change for the sake of change I'm saying it's a good skill every class has access to , meaning if we were to find replacement which for now is soul trap but that will change , it will create more imbalance in DPS between class and for 4. Caltrops doesn't do any upfront damage just fracture,then damage over time.
  • Xogath
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    Did we all forget how the overall damage of Caltrops is dropping from around 38k on live to like 8.6k on the PTS?

    That's a large enough change to warrant never using it again for PvE.

    Unless numbers for it were raised, the maths for this is in numerous other threads discussing the changes to it and other abilities that will replace it.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    @LiquidPony are you saying soul trap and caltrops are the same damage? Because on my Stam toons, in the new patch, clatrops does way less, like 25% of the damage it used to be and at only 30% of the damage of soul trap does in the new patch.
  • LiquidPony
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    @LiquidPony are you saying soul trap and caltrops are the same damage? Because on my Stam toons, in the new patch, clatrops does way less, like 25% of the damage it used to be and at only 30% of the damage of soul trap does in the new patch.

    No.

    I'm saying that Soul Trap is a drop-in replacement for Caltrops in a parse from one patch to the next. Soul Trap does about the same damage that Caltrops did previously.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    @LiquidPony are you saying soul trap and caltrops are the same damage? Because on my Stam toons, in the new patch, clatrops does way less, like 25% of the damage it used to be and at only 30% of the damage of soul trap does in the new patch.

    No.

    I'm saying that Soul Trap is a drop-in replacement for Caltrops in a parse from one patch to the next. Soul Trap does about the same damage that Caltrops did previously.

    All right, you are close enough to the truth. Though I wish they didn't nerf caltrops so hard, it is by far the weakest ground AOE for now, talking like 40-50% weaker then the rest.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on July 27, 2019 1:34PM
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