John_Falstaff wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Damage means nothing imo
Speed is also nerfed rn

At it's core it's just basically an imperial with a different style.
There's a lot to consider when you look at racials, like how complimentary they are, and how effective they are practically, not just sheer numbers.

Another problem is it's convenient to say "oh based on my play style, these X things are imbalanced." Well maybe, but maybe your play style is the problem.

That's too many vague words. Damage is what most of ESO about, and with speed nerfed, racial speed bonus becomes all the more valuable.

No bonuses are more versatile than that of orc's. Health gives a way to use regen food and synergizes with the new money-grab class. Weapon damage is easy to translate into sustain when needed, and extra stamina is an indirect source of extra sustain too. Speed is useful both in PvP and PvE, more so on motion-heavy fights; wherever you sprint even for a second to change position, orc starts giving you an edge.

Even from PvP point of view, every playstyle is covered. Tank? Sure, here's your extra health, extra resources and damage that allows to swap one of offensive five-pieces for defensive one, orcs will feel the loss of 7th/Fury less than others. Brawler? Here's the weapon damage and health recovery. Ganker? Forget about khajiit, it was mentioned above that orc's higher base damage makes crits higher than 10% crit damage does, which is absurd as balancing goes - and speed bonus makes breaking the measure easier.

Most races have some sort of access to resource pool bonuses which have equitable synergy. PvE balance doesn't really matter. It's PvE. It only matters in like... vMA or if you are one of those super hard-on for trial numbers, and even then its not really a significant impact. Khajit have stronger stealth assets and their bonus affects all pool types. Orcs do not get a health recovery bonus anymore, and the notion that this gives you an ability to compensate in a different area is true of all races.

As for speed and damage, these things are more like style choices than gamebreaking imo at this point. You need to look at racials outside of their universal constants in that regard. You are probably perceiving racials as being stronger or weaker because they are more compatible with your style choices, or style choices that are meta-dictated.

Daus wrote: »

The fact that Orc is the go-to race for stam is ridiculous. I also hate the fact that Nords have been left in the dust since this game's inception as a DPS race even though they're supposed to be one of the best warriors if not the best. Heck in this game Dunmers are stronger warriors than them. Ridiculous.

Orc being the "go-to race" is not ridiculous. Whatever race is numerically superior is the one the min/max'ers will use.

IronWooshu wrote: »

Imperials need the love. Remove the health return and make it 500 stam and magicka every 5 seconds, also take 1000 stamina off and give them 1000 magicka while keeping the 2% cost reduction on everything.

Imperial isn't that bad. 3% cost reduction for everything and @100 regen for all three stats, combined with the highest possible health and stamina bonuses. It is just over 50% less raw damage/healing stat compared to Orc or Dunmer.

Orc is kind of perfect though. 2K stam and 258 weapon damage is 8% more raw damage stat than dunmer, and over 50% more than the other races, and it has just enough health to allow builds to fully load into max stam/dmg, compared dunmer

IronWooshu wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

The fact that Orc is the go-to race for stam is ridiculous. I also hate the fact that Nords have been left in the dust since this game's inception as a DPS race even though they're supposed to be one of the best warriors if not the best. Heck in this game Dunmers are stronger warriors than them. Ridiculous.

Orc being the "go-to race" is not ridiculous. Whatever race is numerically superior is the one the min/max'ers will use.

IronWooshu wrote: »

Imperials need the love. Remove the health return and make it 500 stam and magicka every 5 seconds, also take 1000 stamina off and give them 1000 magicka while keeping the 2% cost reduction on everything.

Imperial isn't that bad. 3% cost reduction for everything and @100 regen for all three stats, combined with the highest possible health and stamina bonuses. It is just over 50% less raw damage/healing stat compared to Orc or Dunmer

Imperial is bad compared to the other races..

Healers: Breton High Elf and Argonian
Tanks: Nord and Argonian
Magicka DPS: High Elf, Dark Elf, Breton
Stamina DPS: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Khajiit

Where would you slot an Imperial over any of those other races?

Stam PVP? Orc and Nord both have better racials

Imperial is just there. There not horrible but they dont hold weight in anything.

Personally, Imperial would be my 2nd choice for tanking and 3rd choice for healing. I think they outshine Argonians in both roles - mainly due to cheaper Warhorns. It's hard to pick either though when you have Nords as a tank option and Bretons for healing.

I do think that Imperials (and Argonians) could both use some love when it comes to tanking and it wouldn't hurt to make them a little better for DPS or healing too.

That said, I don't think the gap between Nords and Imperials is as big as the gap between Orcs and Dunmer.

OP is right. Orc heal can be 500 that is enough I guess.

Please just ******** the duck up. **** to shell. I love you but strongly disagree with your sentiments.

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Actually it’s not really that simple. For example in PvP I can’t leverage my extra health at all if I want the sustain from the food which I need. Basically I’m stuck at 28k health even though I’d gladly give up about 1-2k in favor of more stam, stam recovery or mag recovery. In fact I’d gladly trade say 500 health and the health return for stam or mag return. Also Orcs are in the no way the dominating race in PvP and in PvE there will always be a top DPS race. It was redguard for years now it’s orc. So imo there’s really no reason to go back and adjust races rn.

Spoken like true Orc :P Fact is, it takes about 5s to prove which race is simply best and there is no advantage (in PVE) to pick any other. In that sense I would say they failed to balance races correctly. Another fact is, that the only thing that separates Orc from other races, which are all on nearly equal ground is the added stat density of health passive. If they were stripped of it in favor of something more unique (and something not affecting pve dps) they would still remain on same level in PVE as the second best option. I think that is enough of proof.

Won’t argue with you there I’ve been an orc for PvE and PvP since I started 4+ years ago. Red guard was always top dps but a good margins and no one said ***. Once it went orc people got their whine on. And you know what? I’d give up some health for something more unique and useful any day. Not all of it but certainly a good chunk. I could benefit from more phys resist more stam regen even more mag regen or even more sprint reduction. My main point is that people are bitching over a couple of percent dps on a target dummy in optimal situations. I bet you and the OP couldn’t even tell the dps difference between orc and redguard on a dummy never mind in an actual raid.

Since you understand only PVP let me present you the data in simpler form:
Switching from Orc Necromancer to Bosmer Necro, you trade 395 weapon damage to get 178 recovery and 480 stamina

Where are you getting these numbers from? 395 more weapon damage? 178 recovery? 480 stam?...all 3 of these are wrong.

Orc gets 258 more weapon damage, 1k more health, then the completely negligible heal, plus the sprint bonuses.

Bosmer gets 258 more regen (completely offsetting the weapon damage difference), resistance to poison and its status effect (meh), and 10% move speed and 1500 pen after dodge rolling.

If you roll dodge a lot in a medium build, the case can easily be made for bosmer being as good or better than an orc.

I'm just very confused where you came up with the numbers I quoted. They get the exact same stamina bonus. And I don't know how you possibly reached the conclusion that orc gets 395 more weapon damage yet bosmer only gets 178 more recovery.

The 395 weapon comes from 258 * the general weapon multipliers you would have as a stamcro. That is 20% from major brutality from 2h or potions, 10% from minor brutality from a friendly dk, 10% from continous attack, 15% from med armor and 3% from dawnbreaker which comes out to be about 407 weapon damage (382 without a dk, 369 with heavy armor and with a dk around) math is mostly right

I am not sure where he is getting the stam regen difference of 178 regen and 480 stam from, even between foods. I can get a stam regen difference of 130 with dubious vs blue food and regen modifiers coming from 2h, 64 points in mooncalf cp, major endurance, 5 med armor, continous attack and vampire but this is the closest I can get without changing gear and even so, this favors orc

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Actually it’s not really that simple. For example in PvP I can’t leverage my extra health at all if I want the sustain from the food which I need. Basically I’m stuck at 28k health even though I’d gladly give up about 1-2k in favor of more stam, stam recovery or mag recovery. In fact I’d gladly trade say 500 health and the health return for stam or mag return. Also Orcs are in the no way the dominating race in PvP and in PvE there will always be a top DPS race. It was redguard for years now it’s orc. So imo there’s really no reason to go back and adjust races rn.

Spoken like true Orc :P Fact is, it takes about 5s to prove which race is simply best and there is no advantage (in PVE) to pick any other. In that sense I would say they failed to balance races correctly. Another fact is, that the only thing that separates Orc from other races, which are all on nearly equal ground is the added stat density of health passive. If they were stripped of it in favor of something more unique (and something not affecting pve dps) they would still remain on same level in PVE as the second best option. I think that is enough of proof.

Won’t argue with you there I’ve been an orc for PvE and PvP since I started 4+ years ago. Red guard was always top dps but a good margins and no one said ***. Once it went orc people got their whine on. And you know what? I’d give up some health for something more unique and useful any day. Not all of it but certainly a good chunk. I could benefit from more phys resist more stam regen even more mag regen or even more sprint reduction. My main point is that people are bitching over a couple of percent dps on a target dummy in optimal situations. I bet you and the OP couldn’t even tell the dps difference between orc and redguard on a dummy never mind in an actual raid.

Since you understand only PVP let me present you the data in simpler form:
Switching from Orc Necromancer to Bosmer Necro, you trade 395 weapon damage to get 178 recovery and 480 stamina

Where are you getting these numbers from? 395 more weapon damage? 178 recovery? 480 stam?...all 3 of these are wrong.

Orc gets 258 more weapon damage, 1k more health, then the completely negligible heal, plus the sprint bonuses.

Bosmer gets 258 more regen (completely offsetting the weapon damage difference), resistance to poison and its status effect (meh), and 10% move speed and 1500 pen after dodge rolling.

If you roll dodge a lot in a medium build, the case can easily be made for bosmer being as good or better than an orc.

I'm just very confused where you came up with the numbers I quoted. They get the exact same stamina bonus. And I don't know how you possibly reached the conclusion that orc gets 395 more weapon damage yet bosmer only gets 178 more recovery.

The 395 weapon comes from 258 * the general weapon multipliers you would have as a stamcro. That is 20% from major brutality from 2h or potions, 10% from minor brutality from a friendly dk, 10% from continous attack, 15% from med armor and 3% from dawnbreaker which comes out to be about 407 weapon damage (382 without a dk, 369 with heavy armor and with a dk around) math is mostly right

I am not sure where he is getting the stam regen difference of 178 regen and 480 stam from, even between foods. I can get a stam regen difference of 130 with dubious vs blue food and regen modifiers coming from 2h, 64 points in mooncalf cp, major endurance, 5 med armor, continous attack and vampire but this is the closest I can get without changing gear and even so, this favors orc

Well if you are going to count every single possible buff for weapon damage, you should do the same for the regen. His comparison is flat out wrong and is disingenuous. And it doesn't make sense to take food into account, 1k health isn't going to change what food you use in pvp

Edit: I see you did use multipliers for stam regen, but did so while accounting for using different food, which again doesn't make sense from a pvp perspective

This is mainly assuming that a bosmer would use blue food and an orc would use dubious. Even so, I am as skeptical as you are about it hence I noted that the regen and max stam numbers are dubious.

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The gap between races was never that big to begin with. Changes simply switched up the Meta. The difference between an Orc and the next best option now is a few thousand on even the best players and hardly noticeable on players who aren't as skilled.

I agree that many people probably couldn't tell a difference between parsing with an Orcs with a Dunmer. Honestly, lots of people probably couldn't tell the DPS difference in an Orc and a Breton with the same build. That doesn't mean we should just say "Screw it, balanced enough" when balance can be improved without hurting racial identity. If you can't tell the difference, then why do you care and if you can tell the difference, then why wouldn't you want more balance? It opens up options for those who currently enjoy endgame content and lowers barriers for those who might one day want to participate.

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Damage means nothing imo
Speed is also nerfed rn

At it's core it's just basically an imperial with a different style.
There's a lot to consider when you look at racials, like how complimentary they are, and how effective they are practically, not just sheer numbers.

Another problem is it's convenient to say "oh based on my play style, these X things are imbalanced." Well maybe, but maybe your play style is the problem.

That's too many vague words. Damage is what most of ESO about, and with speed nerfed, racial speed bonus becomes all the more valuable.

No bonuses are more versatile than that of orc's. Health gives a way to use regen food and synergizes with the new money-grab class. Weapon damage is easy to translate into sustain when needed, and extra stamina is an indirect source of extra sustain too. Speed is useful both in PvP and PvE, more so on motion-heavy fights; wherever you sprint even for a second to change position, orc starts giving you an edge.

Even from PvP point of view, every playstyle is covered. Tank? Sure, here's your extra health, extra resources and damage that allows to swap one of offensive five-pieces for defensive one, orcs will feel the loss of 7th/Fury less than others. Brawler? Here's the weapon damage and health recovery. Ganker? Forget about khajiit, it was mentioned above that orc's higher base damage makes crits higher than 10% crit damage does, which is absurd as balancing goes - and speed bonus makes breaking the measure easier.

Most races have some sort of access to resource pool bonuses which have equitable synergy. PvE balance doesn't really matter. It's PvE. It only matters in like... vMA or if you are one of those super hard-on for trial numbers, and even then its not really a significant impact. Khajit have stronger stealth assets and their bonus affects all pool types. Orcs do not get a health recovery bonus anymore, and the notion that this gives you an ability to compensate in a different area is true of all races.

As for speed and damage, these things are more like style choices than gamebreaking imo at this point. You need to look at racials outside of their universal constants in that regard. You are probably perceiving racials as being stronger or weaker because they are more compatible with your style choices, or style choices that are meta-dictated.

PvE balance matters to those of us who enjoy PvE, particularly endgame content. It's important that both combat oriented areas of the game be balanced as best as possible. In the case of Orcs it's not a matter of style or whether they are game breaking, it's a matter of basic math showing they get a quantifiable advantage with no tradeoffs when compared to other races. Meta aside, they simply get more health while enjoying the same or better damage bonuses of any other race. Do you really think the altmer resource passive is on par with 1000 extra health + health return?

Ok but in the context of PvE, advantage over what? What thing are they over-advantaging that is game breaking. Completing content?

In PvP, you can't "meta aside" with respect to racials because that plays a part in your choices.

Fundamentally I think altmer passives are on par, because if you look at over all complimentary values of altmer passives they align differently than orcs.

Removing the health bonus seems ideal. Highest damage, at the cost of some survivability.

Vapirko wrote: »

Actually it’s not really that simple. For example in PvP I can’t leverage my extra health at all if I want the sustain from the food which I need. Basically I’m stuck at 28k health even though I’d gladly give up about 1-2k in favor of more stam, stam recovery or mag recovery. In fact I’d gladly trade say 500 health and the health return for stam or mag return. Also Orcs are in the no way the dominating race in PvP and in PvE there will always be a top DPS race. It was redguard for years now it’s orc. So imo there’s really no reason to go back and adjust races rn.

It kind of is. I'm not one for min-maxing, especially in PVP when skill is about 98% of the battle. But you can play around with health in many ways and leverage it. Use lava food and a couple of health enchants - you get your max stam.

However, if you want to stack weapon damage, that 238 + multipliers from an orc cannot be replaced. I can't just run a Bosmer and enchant a 4th ring.

Cathexis wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Damage means nothing imo
Speed is also nerfed rn

At it's core it's just basically an imperial with a different style.
There's a lot to consider when you look at racials, like how complimentary they are, and how effective they are practically, not just sheer numbers.

Another problem is it's convenient to say "oh based on my play style, these X things are imbalanced." Well maybe, but maybe your play style is the problem.

That's too many vague words. Damage is what most of ESO about, and with speed nerfed, racial speed bonus becomes all the more valuable.

No bonuses are more versatile than that of orc's. Health gives a way to use regen food and synergizes with the new money-grab class. Weapon damage is easy to translate into sustain when needed, and extra stamina is an indirect source of extra sustain too. Speed is useful both in PvP and PvE, more so on motion-heavy fights; wherever you sprint even for a second to change position, orc starts giving you an edge.

Even from PvP point of view, every playstyle is covered. Tank? Sure, here's your extra health, extra resources and damage that allows to swap one of offensive five-pieces for defensive one, orcs will feel the loss of 7th/Fury less than others. Brawler? Here's the weapon damage and health recovery. Ganker? Forget about khajiit, it was mentioned above that orc's higher base damage makes crits higher than 10% crit damage does, which is absurd as balancing goes - and speed bonus makes breaking the measure easier.

Most races have some sort of access to resource pool bonuses which have equitable synergy. PvE balance doesn't really matter. It's PvE. It only matters in like... vMA or if you are one of those super hard-on for trial numbers, and even then its not really a significant impact. Khajit have stronger stealth assets and their bonus affects all pool types. Orcs do not get a health recovery bonus anymore, and the notion that this gives you an ability to compensate in a different area is true of all races.

As for speed and damage, these things are more like style choices than gamebreaking imo at this point. You need to look at racials outside of their universal constants in that regard. You are probably perceiving racials as being stronger or weaker because they are more compatible with your style choices, or style choices that are meta-dictated.

PvE balance matters to those of us who enjoy PvE, particularly endgame content. It's important that both combat oriented areas of the game be balanced as best as possible. In the case of Orcs it's not a matter of style or whether they are game breaking, it's a matter of basic math showing they get a quantifiable advantage with no tradeoffs when compared to other races. Meta aside, they simply get more health while enjoying the same or better damage bonuses of any other race. Do you really think the altmer resource passive is on par with 1000 extra health + health return?

Ok but in the context of PvE, advantage over what? What thing are they over-advantaging that is game breaking. Completing content?

In PvP, you can't "meta aside" with respect to racials because that plays a part in your choices.

Fundamentally I think altmer passives are on par, because if you look at over all complimentary values of altmer passives they align differently than orcs.

An advantage doesn't need to be "Game breaking" to be unbalanced. A trial group with 8 Orc stamcros is going to have an easier time clearing difficult content than an equally skilled group with 8 Dunmer stamcros. They will be able to score push to a significantly higher limit. Players trying to meet DPS requirements for guilds will have a noticeably easier time meeting them on an Orc stamcro than they would on a Dunmer. The gap gets even wider when you compare them to one of the lower tier stamina DPS oriented races. I'm using stamcros as an example because they are the class that makes the most use out of the health bonus but that's not to say that other classes wouldn't benifit either.

In PvE you can't "meta aside" for racial passives either. Race is a very impactful choice in PvE for every role. You can, however, compare raw stats that would be useful for a role as part of an analysis of overall racial balance, which is mostly meta independent. No matter the meta, more health is more health and more damage is more damage. You can't simply throw this fact to the side.


Could you elaborate on/provide an example of what you mean when you say "Fundamentally I think altmer passives are on par, because if you look at over all complimentary values of altmer passives they align differently than orcs."? I want to understand your point of view but that statement is fairly vague.

Cathexis wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Damage means nothing imo
Speed is also nerfed rn

At it's core it's just basically an imperial with a different style.
There's a lot to consider when you look at racials, like how complimentary they are, and how effective they are practically, not just sheer numbers.

Another problem is it's convenient to say "oh based on my play style, these X things are imbalanced." Well maybe, but maybe your play style is the problem.

That's too many vague words. Damage is what most of ESO about, and with speed nerfed, racial speed bonus becomes all the more valuable.

No bonuses are more versatile than that of orc's. Health gives a way to use regen food and synergizes with the new money-grab class. Weapon damage is easy to translate into sustain when needed, and extra stamina is an indirect source of extra sustain too. Speed is useful both in PvP and PvE, more so on motion-heavy fights; wherever you sprint even for a second to change position, orc starts giving you an edge.

Even from PvP point of view, every playstyle is covered. Tank? Sure, here's your extra health, extra resources and damage that allows to swap one of offensive five-pieces for defensive one, orcs will feel the loss of 7th/Fury less than others. Brawler? Here's the weapon damage and health recovery. Ganker? Forget about khajiit, it was mentioned above that orc's higher base damage makes crits higher than 10% crit damage does, which is absurd as balancing goes - and speed bonus makes breaking the measure easier.

Most races have some sort of access to resource pool bonuses which have equitable synergy. PvE balance doesn't really matter. It's PvE. It only matters in like... vMA or if you are one of those super hard-on for trial numbers, and even then its not really a significant impact. Khajit have stronger stealth assets and their bonus affects all pool types. Orcs do not get a health recovery bonus anymore, and the notion that this gives you an ability to compensate in a different area is true of all races.

As for speed and damage, these things are more like style choices than gamebreaking imo at this point. You need to look at racials outside of their universal constants in that regard. You are probably perceiving racials as being stronger or weaker because they are more compatible with your style choices, or style choices that are meta-dictated.

PvE balance matters to those of us who enjoy PvE, particularly endgame content. It's important that both combat oriented areas of the game be balanced as best as possible. In the case of Orcs it's not a matter of style or whether they are game breaking, it's a matter of basic math showing they get a quantifiable advantage with no tradeoffs when compared to other races. Meta aside, they simply get more health while enjoying the same or better damage bonuses of any other race. Do you really think the altmer resource passive is on par with 1000 extra health + health return?

Ok but in the context of PvE, advantage over what? What thing are they over-advantaging that is game breaking. Completing content?

In PvP, you can't "meta aside" with respect to racials because that plays a part in your choices.

Fundamentally I think altmer passives are on par, because if you look at over all complimentary values of altmer passives they align differently than orcs.

An advantage doesn't need to be "Game breaking" to be unbalanced. A trial group with 8 Orc stamcros is going to have an easier time clearing difficult content than an equally skilled group with 8 Dunmer stamcros. They will be able to score push to a significantly higher limit. Players trying to meet DPS requirements for guilds will have a noticeably easier time meeting them on an Orc stamcro than they would on a Dunmer. The gap gets even wider when you compare them to one of the lower tier stamina DPS oriented races. I'm using stamcros as an example because they are the class that makes the most use out of the health bonus but that's not to say that other classes wouldn't benifit either.

In PvE you can't "meta aside" for racial passives either. Race is a very impactful choice in PvE for every role. You can, however, compare raw stats that would be useful for a role as part of an analysis of overall racial balance, which is mostly meta independent. No matter the meta, more health is more health and more damage is more damage. You can't simply throw this fact to the side.


Could you elaborate on/provide an example of what you mean when you say "Fundamentally I think altmer passives are on par, because if you look at over all complimentary values of altmer passives they align differently than orcs."? I want to understand your point of view but that statement is fairly vague.

I won't disagree with your issue about trial groups. That's fine, but that is indicative of a problem with trial scoring and not racials. Trial scoring is substantially easier and more fair to adjust than racials or pvp content. Trial scoring variables are significantly less complex systems that are an independent subset of game mechanics. Racials on the other hand interact with all content, and pvp itself is a significantly more delicate balance.

When I say complimentary values what I mean to say is that they are variables that have a much higher degree of effective stacking, and how this impact plays out across classes and intended play styles.

Look at it this way, let's say you are playing I don't know... (This is a hypothetical, non factual example) A medium armor high elf dragon knight. Maybe that spec is OK, maybe its bad. But an orc is going to look mighty appealing to you because it makes you tanky in a lot of ways you wouldn't be on a medium armor high elf. Because a medium armor high elf dragon knight isn't going to be optimized for a play style that say a heavy armor orc dragon knight might be, they aren't the same thing.

Trials scoring is a much more simple formula, I can agree on that, but the variables in that equation are also much more rigid compared to PvP variables. If a group clear a trial faster, all other things being equal, they should get a better score, and that's exactly what a DPS advantage does, it lets you clear faster. Short of reworking every trial to punish excessive DPS I don't see how that can really be adjusted without breaking the entire system.

On the other hand, from my point of view, adjusting the Orc max health passive to something that can't be as easily leveraged for a DPS gain in PvE but still keeps them tankier to maintain their playstyle throughout the game. Physical and/or spell resistance seems like the easiest choice to me but I'm open to other, more creative solutions.

I think I get the gist of what you are saying - that an Orc and a highelf can't be compared directly because light, medium, and heavy builds in PvP play so differently from each other? I will admit that that is a valid point. The value of a utility passive in PvP can change quite a bit with different builds and make raw stat bonuses seem weaker in comparison. My hope though is that, by adjusting that health bonus to something that is still valuable in PvP and not so valuable in PvE, the PvP balance can be minimally disrupted while PvE balance is brought more in line.

From the PvE perspective that extra health really is a big deal, particularly when it comes to stamina necromancers.