Trials use case: Magsorcs only DPS class forced to use healing staff in trials?

Vahrokh · July 2019

There are several roles to be played in trials. Typically, stamina classes need to melee and thus are left DPSing "in peace" at the boss.

Talented players who play ranged specs are usually asked to perform key roles: go in portals (vCR and similar), go to attract damage (vAS second boss), go in vMOL "backyard", kite vMOL meteors, go at upper vHoF floor (second boss) and so on and on.
Magsorcs, due to their their ability to self heal (and average damage on actual, dynamic encounters), have traditionally been tasked to perform these tasks.

I am one of them, most trial guilds I play in, send me to do those "pesky" backdoor / portal mechanics that can easily cause a wipe. I am talking about high level gaming, vCR +2 / +3, vAS +2 / +3, hm vMOL and so on.

Those "you are alone in a portal / trap plane / backyard" situations, usually feature an hostile environment, some times Oblivion Damage (bypassing all defenses), where you must fight and survive on your own means.

Now, due to the never ending stream of nerfs, often PvP induced, we have lost most of our shields. Our "heal on DPS" abilities (Power Surge and an handful others) have been nerfed too.

Whereas other classes have ways to effectively self heal even against Oblivion Damage, magsorcs who do "mechanics" tend to dual slot the matriarch pet and use that to keep themselves alive. Even with that, certain portal situations are quite challenging to survive to. Power Surge is not enough and also cripples our DPS compared to slotting something like Inner Light.

With the PTS patch, however, we cannot use healing matriarch any more. The loss of DPS is way too huge and magsorcs are not exactly DPS champions to begin with.

So, what can we do? We have two choices and they are all negative to say the least.

Completely give up on our guild assigned role and our preferred playstyle. Drop matriarch and ... drop Tormentor too. Because it's so low DPS that slotting any other two DPS skills greatly outDPS it anyway. So, from "utility trial member", we become just another, single target and single task NB copy.
Take an healing staff and become off-healer hybrid or something? So we have an atrocious DPS but we can do portals and off-heal when out of portals?

So, how are we supposed to play trial mechanics without a proper self heal when we are inside?

Couldn't you just ad a simple:

if (in PvP zone) {
MatriarchDamageModifier = -69%
}

and let us be useful in trials like we are now?

Nifty2g · July 2019

Simple solution.

Log off, hit create a character & slide over to Orc and pick Necromancer.

bigelle.x3_ESO · July 2019

The loss of dps is too huge to use matriarch, so we must lose even more dps in comparison by running resto staff. Bruh

Fyi magsorc got massively buffed. Can easily pull 40k+ on a 6 mil and not heavy attack once on the worst sustain build in the game. I cry tears of joy.

Tannus15 · July 2019

Dark conversion obviously

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

Have you tried Crit Surge? It heals more than Power Surge and keeps me alive just fine for Nahvii HM downstairs (no shield). Sorcs also do well for vMoL backroom because streak can be more reliable than jumping (although I still prefer jumping over giving up a skill slot).

I do agree that Magblade is better equipped to do vCR portals, since they have Swallow Soul for healing, as well as single target DoTs with useful debuffs (Lotus Fan and Debilitate). That has been the case for most of the time since Summerset released, with Sorcs only pulling ahead for a few months.

kalunte · July 2019

with two slot freed you can slot skills to do matriarch cheese. welcome to common folks issues. the tools are here, you just dont want to use them.

ZeroXFF · July 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

Dark conversion obviously

If it was instant, this would be a valid suggestion. 1 DoT + 1 instant heal will do what the matriarch was supposed to deliver by virtue of taking up 2 skill slots. But since it's not instant, using it in PvE for a heal is suicidal.

Evito · July 2019

That's just silly, you can still get 90k+ with the matriarch.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

Dark conversion obviously

Not until gets instant. Lose 2 GCDs for just heal for 8k, would mean that you will have probably to cast it twice, becoming a huge loss of DPS.

I already suggested that instant Dark Conversion should be the Sorc heal and sustain skill for PvE Sorcs (noone would use it in Pvp, stamina too valuable, apart from Streak+Streak combos). This way we could finally leave pets out, that skill that enrages so many people.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Slot critsurge and some other dot in place of the matriarch if you Need self healing somewhere where you can hit a target, in vmol backyard you´d prob have to run dark conversion and a Shield.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

About the OP... i dunno if it could be doable a Sorc with resto staff in PvE. Let me think about it...

Skills you would slot at back bar:

- Healing Ward
- Combat Prayer? i know healers will use but it´s a good AOE heal and berserker...
- Rapid regeneration
- Channeled Acceleration
- (one more buff). Not Surge: you get Major Sorcery off Degeneration and healing off Resto Skills.

Front bar would be something like:

- Elemental Weapon
- Crystal Fragments
- Degeneration
- Soul Trap
- Unstable Wall of Elements

I´m sure it can be optimized alot; still, looks like we´re playing with one bar and miss alot of passive skills. On not damage received rotation, there would be few reasons to go to backbar (hence doing less animation cancel with weapon swap, which is a well known tactic used for increasing DPS).

idk · July 2019

We have always had to use builds that suited the needs of the team. What OP is talking about is really no different that doing what is needed.

OP falsely states this is giving up on their playstyle as they chose to do the playstyle the team needed. Everyone who chooses to competitively raid, to clear the more challenging content is choosing to do what is needed.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Completely give up on our guild assigned role and our preferred playstyle. Drop matriarch and ... drop Tormentor too. Because it's so low DPS that slotting any other two DPS skills greatly outDPS it anyway. So, from "utility trial member", we become just another, single target and single task NB copy.

The above is a great example of what I am saying. OP is claiming one of their choices it to give on their guild assigned role or prefered playstyle yet what they are realy doing is exactly what their guild/raid team is asking.

Somehow we have been trudging through these trials requireing us to keep ourselves alive since MoL was released in 2016 and we seem to be doing a great job about it. Some more challenging than others but we get it done.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

Im okay on building whats the best for the team. The right question would be, is a Sorc with Resto staff what a vet trial team needs?

miawmiaw1337 · July 2019

yeah now magsorcs dps have no usable "oh ***" emergency burst heal and tiny flimsy shields with huge cost are useless ;-; was thinking about slotting resto staff and using steadfast ward but that's also gonna get nerfed....maybe i should just switch to stamsorc to get that new juicy op vigor that all stamina chars get

Vahrokh · July 2019

idk wrote: »

We have always had to use builds that suited the needs of the team. What OP is talking about is really no different that doing what is needed.

OP falsely states this is giving up on their playstyle as they chose to do the playstyle the team needed. Everyone who chooses to competitively raid, to clear the more challenging content is choosing to do what is needed.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Completely give up on our guild assigned role and our preferred playstyle. Drop matriarch and ... drop Tormentor too. Because it's so low DPS that slotting any other two DPS skills greatly outDPS it anyway. So, from "utility trial member", we become just another, single target and single task NB copy.

The above is a great example of what I am saying. OP is claiming one of their choices it to give on their guild assigned role or prefered playstyle yet what they are realy doing is exactly what their guild/raid team is asking.

Somehow we have been trudging through these trials requireing us to keep ourselves alive since MoL was released in 2016 and we seem to be doing a great job about it. Some more challenging than others but we get it done.

OP truely gets told to do the portals and other mechanics, THAT is the role the guild assigned me.

Runefang · July 2019

Time to roll a Magplar if you want to keep your role.

Evito · July 2019

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

About the OP... i dunno if it could be doable a Sorc with resto staff in PvE. Let me think about it...

Skills you would slot at back bar:

- Healing Ward
- Combat Prayer? i know healers will use but it´s a good AOE heal and berserker...
- Rapid regeneration
- Channeled Acceleration
- (one more buff). Not Surge: you get Major Sorcery off Degeneration and healing off Resto Skills.

Front bar would be something like:

- Elemental Weapon
- Crystal Fragments
- Degeneration
- Soul Trap
- Unstable Wall of Elements

I´m sure it can be optimized alot; still, looks like we´re playing with one bar and miss alot of passive skills. On not damage received rotation, there would be few reasons to go to backbar (hence doing less animation cancel with weapon swap, which is a well known tactic used for increasing DPS).

This is a pretty laughable 'cut your nose off to spite your face' deal. If you run this build the DPS will be garbage and you're barely half a healer. It's just useless. The matriarch damage is nerfed, the heal is the same.

I'll just add this to my earlier statement.
https://i.imgur.com/7F3I73X.png

I made a build to try haunting curse, the experiment ended up being redundant (the idea was to run no pets, but I could barely get 90k without one), but this does prove you can easily pull 90k+ with the matriarch, and it's still the best self heal we have.

LiquidPony · July 2019

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Dark conversion obviously

Not until gets instant. Lose 2 GCDs for just heal for 8k, would mean that you will have probably to cast it twice, becoming a huge loss of DPS.

I already suggested that instant Dark Conversion should be the Sorc heal and sustain skill for PvE Sorcs (noone would use it in Pvp, stamina too valuable, apart from Streak+Streak combos). This way we could finally leave pets out, that skill that enrages so many people.

Dark Conversion works fine for vMoL backyard. You have plenty of spare GCDs while moving. Same with vHoF upstairs.

For vCR portals and even vSS portals, what about Structured Entropy + Surge?

I understand that both of those skills require you to be doing damage to heal, but that's the tradeoff. If you don't like it, you can eat the DPS loss and run the Twilight instead of the Scamp. Consider that if a magblade wants to have an on-demand heal (Dark Cloak) rather than a heal from damage (Swallow Soul), they've got to waste a bar slot on a pure heal.

Honestly the idea that any of this content is going to require magsorcs to run a resto backbar is pretty laughable

ThePedge · July 2019

Can still be done just requires more skill, don't see the issue.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Dark Conversion works fine for vMoL backyard. You have plenty of spare GCDs while moving. Same with vHoF upstairs.

For vCR portals and even vSS portals, what about Structured Entropy + Surge?

I understand that both of those skills require you to be doing damage to heal, but that's the tradeoff. If you don't like it, you can eat the DPS loss and run the Twilight instead of the Scamp. Consider that if a magblade wants to have an on-demand heal (Dark Cloak) rather than a heal from damage (Swallow Soul), they've got to waste a bar slot on a pure heal.

Honestly the idea that any of this content is going to require magsorcs to run a resto backbar is pretty laughable

Pretty much this, on magplar I have to run htd/bol since i can hardly use sweeps, the hot from ritual isnt enough (yet? we´ll see I guess) and purifying light is unreliable in General. On magdk I had to run coag for vCR Portal since embers are too unreliable while running the orbs.

Grandma · July 2019

What others have said basically.

1) Matriarch sucks now, true. but you can still hit ~ 90k with it on a parse. How high would that be in an actual raid with a downstairs? probably around 50-60k right? this is fine, if you really want to but there are other options.

2) now that we have 2 empty slots, let's just throw critical surge and degeneration in the mix. now you have major sorcery and a stronger hot. The only catch is dealing damage, but unless you're afking in downstairs vcr you will be fine.

3) do what your guild leaders ask you to. they might have better ideas or tell you what you need to slot. Dark conversion is usually hated because it's 2 gcds but honestly in a situation where you have to wait to do damage or walk to mechanics i don't see why you couldn't sneak that in, for example vmol back yard.

Tyrion87 · July 2019

These were my fears as well.

While I will still be able to do vmol backyard/vhof upstairs/vss downstairs - since surge+shield is enough here to keep you alive...

...I just can't see myself doing vcr portals anymore. There you need burst heals and - which many of ppl here seem to forget - you can't rely on heals that are dependant on dealing dmg. In portals you just dont have any targets anymore to reliably get heals from surge. On the other hand dark conversion slows you down so it's not the best option to use while carrying the orb. Realistically, sometimes shards spawn on the opposite side of the room so carrying orbs to them requires you to heal yourself on the way or you're dead. Lets not forget that if you choose to still use matriarch for such occasions, you lose 2 bar slots just to have an emergency heal. Absurd.

I really think every class should have an access to burst insta-cast heal that is not a double-barred pet.

WuffyCerulei · July 2019

I understand the concerns, but sorcs have been doing vAS, vCR, and vMoL before the matriarchs became meta. They used power surge, mostly. The new reduced shield amount won’t even affect pve, as Ward’s/Other shield’s max is never hit due to the health caps. In pvp though, you can get high af shields if you have high health. And that’s pretty easy to get in CP pvp.
Sorcs will adapt and learn to self heal when needed. Just because a strong burst heal was nerfed doesn’t mean I’m gonna have to use a resto staff.

heng14rwb17_ESO · July 2019

GO TEMPLAR OR GO CRY !

Pallio · July 2019

Psst. Everyone here hates sorc cause they died in pvp one time to a sorc, don't expect any help or sympathy for the unending nerfs to sorc, on these forums.

MartiniDaniels · July 2019

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO TEMPLAR OR GO CRY !

I guess with current known dps numbers from PTS and fact that even stamblades are off-meta, magplars will be a new top dog target in terms of nerf requests. (after sorcs ofc)

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I guess with current known dps numbers from PTS and fact that even stamblades are off-meta, magplars will be a new top dog target in terms of nerf requests. (after sorcs ofc)

Why would you nerf magdps if stamdps exists. All you Need to know About dps numbers from pts is that stamcro still does high dps so stamcro stacking it is.

Vahrokh · July 2019

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I understand the concerns, but sorcs have been doing vAS, vCR, and vMoL before the matriarchs became meta. They used power surge, mostly. The new reduced shield amount won’t even affect pve, as Ward’s/Other shield’s max is never hit due to the health caps. In pvp though, you can get high af shields if you have high health. And that’s pretty easy to get in CP pvp.
Sorcs will adapt and learn to self heal when needed. Just because a strong burst heal was nerfed doesn’t mean I’m gonna have to use a resto staff.

Not at all. Matriarch have ALWAYS been meta (vastly above Tormentor) for sorcs that went pets spec.
Most of all, Matriarch and pet specs have been good enough to be used since vAS and vCR were created.

For vMOL the situation is somewhat more articulate:

vMOL, back at the time, has indeed been done without pets BUT at the time magsorcs had triple the shields strength!
hm vMOL: I understand few here have experience with hard mode, so here it is:
- backyard is still doable, but when you come out you cannot cleanse and your receive an healing debuff. Guess what Matron can do here!
- Void Combustion: unlike normal mode, these appear all the time and you are insured you'll get several of them.
- Meteors kiting, traditionally done by magsorcs (sometimes, by healers) is 3 times harder. Meteors in hard mode are almost always 1 shot. You get constantly harassed by stun-happy Void Combusions that shall get you hit by a meteor and die.
- In hard mode you get assassins. Those are big damage adds that some times you have to run close by while you are kiting meteors.
- Void sphere "rays" (the "black rain" coming from the center) can easily 1 shot someone who is not full health, and they stack on top of all the rest: assassins AoE, void combustions and so on.
- In all of this, the magsorc deals ZERO damage (since you are kiting away from trial group), so no healing from "DoT => heal" abilities.
- Post (last) nerf magsorc shield is a joke and is immediately annihilated by any of the effects listed above. Basically, you get just one of the "things" above hitting you and, even with max shields - if you are not dead you are down to 5k health or so. Ready to die to the next effect (they can come at any time and all together). Guess what's the post-shield-nerf magsoc lifesaver here? Matron, of course!
To compound all of the above, hm vMOL really tests your guild DPS. You cannot bring an underperformer there. You cannot bring a -69% matron magsorc there.

SeaUnicorn · July 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO TEMPLAR OR GO CRY !

I guess with current known dps numbers from PTS and fact that even stamblades are off-meta, magplars will be a new top dog target in terms of nerf requests. (after sorcs ofc)

Nerf on the class goes round and round, round and round...

idk · July 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

idk wrote: »

We have always had to use builds that suited the needs of the team. What OP is talking about is really no different that doing what is needed.

OP falsely states this is giving up on their playstyle as they chose to do the playstyle the team needed. Everyone who chooses to competitively raid, to clear the more challenging content is choosing to do what is needed.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Completely give up on our guild assigned role and our preferred playstyle. Drop matriarch and ... drop Tormentor too. Because it's so low DPS that slotting any other two DPS skills greatly outDPS it anyway. So, from "utility trial member", we become just another, single target and single task NB copy.

The above is a great example of what I am saying. OP is claiming one of their choices it to give on their guild assigned role or prefered playstyle yet what they are realy doing is exactly what their guild/raid team is asking.

Somehow we have been trudging through these trials requireing us to keep ourselves alive since MoL was released in 2016 and we seem to be doing a great job about it. Some more challenging than others but we get it done.

OP truely gets told to do the portals and other mechanics, THAT is the role the guild assigned me.

Yes, and all of us get assigned a role and are expected to use builds that help us achieve the goal we are asked to take on.

When vMoL was released it was common that DPS DKs were asked told to slot chains, even if they were stamina builds. They were tasked with pulling in the adds. That lowered their damage but they did what was needed to help the team reach it's goal.

Concerning your claim that Matriarch has always been meta for pet specsd I can easily say that is not the case. Since you are talking about vMoL above, I remember when pet sorcs were BiS and most pet sorc builds I saw in vMoL HM during that first year it was out did not run a second pet to begin with. They only ran the volatile familiar only. Some would run the Tormentor.

I do not know why you go through a list of different sources of damage found in the Rakkhat fight but considering non sorcs seem to manage this fight without access to their own matriarch I do not see your point. Especially since vMoL is significantly easier today than when it was first released due to the huge power creep we continuously experience.

Vahrokh · July 2019

idk wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

idk wrote: »

We have always had to use builds that suited the needs of the team. What OP is talking about is really no different that doing what is needed.

OP falsely states this is giving up on their playstyle as they chose to do the playstyle the team needed. Everyone who chooses to competitively raid, to clear the more challenging content is choosing to do what is needed.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Completely give up on our guild assigned role and our preferred playstyle. Drop matriarch and ... drop Tormentor too. Because it's so low DPS that slotting any other two DPS skills greatly outDPS it anyway. So, from "utility trial member", we become just another, single target and single task NB copy.

The above is a great example of what I am saying. OP is claiming one of their choices it to give on their guild assigned role or prefered playstyle yet what they are realy doing is exactly what their guild/raid team is asking.

Somehow we have been trudging through these trials requireing us to keep ourselves alive since MoL was released in 2016 and we seem to be doing a great job about it. Some more challenging than others but we get it done.

OP truely gets told to do the portals and other mechanics, THAT is the role the guild assigned me.

Yes, and all of us get assigned a role and are expected to use builds that help us achieve the goal we are asked to take on.

When vMoL was released it was common that DPS DKs were asked told to slot chains, even if they were stamina builds. They were tasked with pulling in the adds. That lowered their damage but they did what was needed to help the team reach it's goal.

First of all, Matriarch has not always been meta for pet specs and I can say that easily. Since you are talking about vMoL above, I remember when pet sorcs were BiS and most pet sorc builds I saw in vMoL HM during that first year it was out did not run a second pet to begin with.

I do not know why you go through a list of different sources of damage found in the Rakkhat fight but considering non sorcs seem to manage this fight without access to their own matriarch I do not see your point. Especially since vMoL is significantly easier today than when it was first released due to the huge power creep we continuously experience.

Non sorcs who kite meteors are usually healers. Guess what they use?