Bosmer were never stealthier than Khajiit starting out. Usually the opposite. Both hit the same stealthiness cap all races hit when optimally leveled.

Still the stealth detect has gotten me more kills in PvP than the smaller detection radius ever did. It could be nerfed and reverted to "lore friendly" sneak "buff" that matters much less.

darkblue5 wrote: »

Bosmer were never stealthier than Khajiit starting out. Usually the opposite. Both hit the same stealthiness cap all races hit when optimally leveled.

Still the stealth detect has gotten me more kills in PvP than the smaller detection radius ever did. It could be nerfed and reverted to "lore friendly" sneak "buff" that matters much less.

To add to what BlueRaven said, if you group all skills/abilities into Combat, Magic, and Stealth catagories (as had been done in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim) and factor in racial skill and ability bonuses then you can see that Bosmer were always either as good at stealth skills overall as Khajiit (Morrowind) or better than them (Oblivion and Skyrim). Currently, Bosmer have not any bonus whatsoever to any kind of stealth skill at all. None.

So you are factually incorrect when you say Bosmer were never stealthier. Note, also, that the ability bonuses would allow for effective skill values to exceed 100 in Oblivion and Morrowind which means that for some stealth skills Bosmer, Khajiit, and male Argonians could have some skills (such as sneaking) be better than the max for other races.

It blows my mind that people could be in such an uproar about such a minor change. This is ridiculous. You know that detection radius doesn't matter hardly at all if you steal from BEHIND the person right? I've played stam NB on just about every race there is and I only noticed the tiniest difference in stealth capability between a redguard and a bosmer. If losing 3m detection radius completely destroys the game for you and is such a big deal it's worth starting a movement over...


L2P

baronzilch wrote: »

thegreatme wrote: »

Okay but here's a question for you. How often do you actually use stealth to run content? If the answer is "I never stealth for PvE (except maybe in those quests where stealth is the primary game-given directive)", then of course you aren't going to find it useful.

Quite often. I hate (or rather am bored by) PvE. I use stealth to complete quests, move by trash (when I solo dungeons), gather resources and sometimes just for fun. Legerdemain and TG are the couple of PvE things I actually enjoy.

thegreatme wrote: »

Bottom line is that people shouldn't have to be forced into equipping 2+ sets (Night Terror & Darloc Brae) to regain our effectiveness at something we always had, and now don't, because ...

This is bs. No one's forcing anything, you can do it all without anything special; if I am specifically doing a stealth quest, I might add some stealth gear for convenience. Lots of players swap gear and some even respec to do different things, that's pretty normal.

There are 8 other races besides Bosmer (of old) or Khajit and they can all stealth or complete stealth objectives just fine.

thegreatme wrote: »

Mind you, that's not an accusation. I just never found many people to go through PvE content doing anything other than charging through at breakneck speed...

Why do you want to complete stealth objectives at break-neck speed then? I seriously can't believe there is anything in this game you can't do without that stealth passive. Again 8 other races manage just fine.

thegreatme wrote: »

...which means a lot of people say "this is useless" and it gets taken away from those who it was actually useful to.

So, you want to take away detection, which I use every day? Good on you for being a hypocrite.

Your baseless essay on why you can't be cool stealth boy anymore, has definitely cemented my position. The stealth passive was garbage, anything is better, and I like (and use) what we have now.

What? This makes zero sense. Stealth detect is used in only one aspect of the game while improved stealth radius is used in both. You have a way of the air set. Use it, you can get it cheap because its stealth detect bonus is pointless.

The only one being hypocritical about any of this is you. You don't understand lore. You don't want to allow passives that everyone can use. And you want passives that restrict it to the minority of the player base, pvp players. That is the problem with pvp players in general, they only care about themselves, not balance or lore.

No one here who is pro stealth wants passives to benefit one style of game play. Improved stealth can be used by everyone, meanwhile MOST of Hunters Eye is a dead passive for PvE. No one in PvE needs stealth detect, no one needs armor pen, and using a roll to activate a passive is a dps loss anyway. It is such a horribly constructed passive on so many levels it's actually incredible that it made it off a white board. But then again the guy calling the shots cares only for PvP anyway so it should not be a surprise.

Yet most of the pro stealth people are willing to allow to keep the abysmal armor pen **** because most of the greedy pvp players would just whine about it.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

At this point, and after reading some lore, I think that there is no bosmers as playable race in ESO.

We are clearly ohmes - fall damage decrease, speed on roll-dodge (acrobatics), detection as side effect of cat's night vision etc, penetration (sharp claws). Even looks - in previous games bosmers were much more distinctive from humans, there was something squirrel-like about all of them. In ESO we are basically short humans with sharp features, sharp ears and pack of khajiiti's racial perks.

Lore-wise this satisfies me. If I'm ohme, that's ok, we are all Azura's childs anyway and relatives to each other (i.e. altmers, ohmes, khajiits, bosmers).

I would have gone with uncorrupted Falmer, but your suggestion is good too. 😐 /sigh

BlueRaven wrote: »

The only one being hypocritical about any of this is you. You don't understand lore. You don't want to allow passives that everyone can use. And you want passives that restrict it to the minority of the player base, pvp players. That is the problem with pvp players in general, they only care about themselves, not balance or lore.

No one here who is pro stealth wants passives to benefit one style of game play. Improved stealth can be used by everyone, meanwhile MOST of Hunters Eye is a dead passive for PvE. No one in PvE needs stealth detect, no one needs armor pen, and using a roll to activate a passive is a dps loss anyway. It is such a horribly constructed passive on so many levels it's actually incredible that it made it off a white board. But then again the guy calling the shots cares only for PvP anyway so it should not be a surprise.

Yet most of the pro stealth people are willing to allow to keep the abysmal armor pen **** because most of the greedy pvp players would just whine about it.

Dead wrong. I never asked for the change, but, in the end I like it. Am entitled to that as much as you. Nothing hypocritical about that. Do you even know what that word means?

I understand the lore just fine, played all the SP games - a lot. But, the lore ship sailed when they made classes for ESO. Online is a different game and using examples from SP is silly and insincere.

Lore fixation really seems like a really odd hill to die on. Your argument is all about "feelings" and auxiliary, cosmetic nuances that really don't matter to gameplay.

No one has offered any evidence that extra stealth is even useful. Extra stealth is unnecessary for anything in PvE. Again, all non-stealth passive races can complete the content without it.

In PvP detect is 1000x more useful than extra stealth radius (it's a top tier PvP passive at the moment).

The dodge roll bonus is meh in PvP also; so nice of you to "let" them keep it. Really big of you.

Calling PvPers 'greedy whiners', what a jerk statement to make. Seriously, you've lost all credibility at that point.

You want something else for PvE so your lore feelings don't get hurt, fine whatever, but stop advocating for the removal of something that is actually useful.

BlueRaven wrote: »

AND it [stealth detection]is only good in PVP where the old passive was good in both PVE and PVP. That alone make the old passive better.

anadandy wrote: »

And this is the only argument that even needs to be made. They took a passive that had utility, no matter how minor, in both game modes and replaced it with one that has utility in only one.

Exactly. They took what a few people want to call a "niche playstyle/passive" and made one that's not even niche -- its exclusive to PvP. The Devs couldn't even be bothered to hide that fact in their patch notes for the racial changes.

Blinkin8r wrote: »

It blows my mind that people could be in such an uproar about such a minor change. This is ridiculous. You know that detection radius doesn't matter hardly at all if you steal from BEHIND the person right? I've played stam NB on just about every race there is and I only noticed the tiniest difference in stealth capability between a redguard and a bosmer. If losing 3m detection radius completely destroys the game for you and is such a big deal it's worth starting a movement over...

L2P

I love the "learn to play" response. I really do. Its so original and intelligent. Almost as intelligent as "Adapt".

Jaraal wrote: »

And not only do Bosmer have zero stealth bonus, but they are actually the least stealthy race in ESO because passive stealth detection alerts hidden enemies to the presence of a Bosmer (by opening their "hidden" eye indicator) before any other race.

Somebody did a visual test of this in another thread, from both perspectives, and the hidden enemy could tell he was in detection range before the Bosmer could even see him.

I've tested this as well and its frankly BS. This passive is clumsily utilized at best because there is nothing to tell you when YOU have "detected" someone else, only something that tells THEM when you've detected THEM. You might as well stick a bell on us so they hear us coming too.

I'd be better off not using stealth at all with that passive on because in a PvP environment its more likely to screw me over when some hidden ganker goes "oh someone is right here, TIME TO JUMP AND KILL THEM."

baronzilch wrote: »

This is bs. No one's forcing anything, you can do it all without anything special;

Now you're just cherry-picking semantics. Yes I can just go around doing stealth objectives without the racial bonuses and without equipping gear to do it.

Or I can equip different sets to get the stealth bonuses while doing stealth objectives.

The point being, if I want to have the same stealth radius reduction as I had before the racial changes <--and this is the key thing of what I was saying, which was somehow completely missed -- then I have to equip sets in order to get it back. So yes, in a very loose use of the word "forced" -- I am forced to use sets to make up the difference, because there is no alternative way to get my stealth reduction radius back to what it was, except for equipping sets that give these bonuses.

No one is putting a gun to my head and saying "do this or die", but its a choice of either going without it completely or making up the difference with sets. Its one or the other.

Its actually very simple to understand.

baronzilch wrote: »

So, you want to take away detection, which I use every day? Good on you for being a hypocrite.

The stealth passive was garbage, anything is better, and I like (and use) what we have now.

Found the PvPer.

You managed just fine without it for the last 5 years didn't you? If you didn't use sets like Way of Air to get better detection before this change because of how absolutely-amazing-detection-actually-is, there's not even an argument to be made here.

Am I equipping stealth sets when I need them in order to make up the difference, even though I hate to do it? Yes. Sparingly. And only when absolutely required, and having to completely change my playstyle in every other facet of the game because the Dev's decided "screw your stealth playstyle, only PvP matters." And yes, this is what they're saying when they give us a skill they flat out spell out is completely useless for all facets of PvE.

Would you start stacking Way of Air on your toon if they took detection away from you because its Just-That-Useful you'd rather have that then other sets that give you other, better bonuses? Again if the answer is No, you're not making a point, you're just here to argue for the sake of arguing.

Jaraal wrote: »

Just add the stealth back in and keep the detection for those who actually think it's beneficial.

Having stealth might offset the "Bosmer alert" side effect of passive detection. If the enemy is now aware of your presence 3 meters earlier, adding in 3 meters of actual stealth would even it back to zero.

Everybody wins.

Seems like the most logical solution but I doubt it would ever happen. The fact that they swapped them and made them exclusive to one another is honestly a pretty dumb move imo for reasons I've already explained. Detection doesn't matter if your enemy is alerted faster than you are, which means they're going to act/react faster.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Considering that staying true to the lore was a primary consideration in their own comments

^Exactly this. If they don't want to get called on it, don't use it as the reason in the first place.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

It's not useful: magelight, flare, hunter, and potions remain much more reliable means for detection. Seriously, you are literally the ONLY person who has come to any thread about this to say that the detect is actually worth anything. Ever. And we have had people who took the passive who actually tried to get any use out of it in PVP-land, and it was completely unreliable there. Even in a cramped location where the enemy player was in a known location, the detection passive did not work. It took magelight to reveal them.

I've been to PvP, quite recently actually. I used my almighty-OP-Bosmer-Detection-Skills-Nobody-Can-Compete-With to help a few groups try to sniff out gankers hiding in recently taken keeps, several times. Know what it got me? Killed. Every time. Know why? Because my detection skill alerts them first and myself second. I can't kill someone who sees me first under this hypothetical in-a-perfect-world scenario that my detection bonus means they just pop up right in front of me like a sitting duck just waiting to be picked off, because that's not how it works.

If that's how it works for you, maybe you're just playing against really bad PvPers then patting yourself on the back for how "absolutely amazing" you are, which is rather ironic.

Its not a matter of "learn to play", its a matter of bad mechanics sloppily shoehorned in under a blatant lie of "well its lore-friendly!", which has been proven time and again to be absolutely ludicrous.

And again, its been said before, if we're going by lore, Detection makes more sense on khajiit than Bosmer because they have had abilities like Night Eye in previous TES games, and no, I absolutely would not wish this ability be dropped on khajiit players instead because frankly its terrible.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

But if it is sooooooooooooooooooooo essential for you, just stack sentry + way of air. The sets are insanely cheap to buy so no grind needed. As a bonus -- enjoy the extra meter of OP awesomeness.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

If it was, then Sentry and Way of Air sets would sell like hotcakes.
Pro-tip -- they don't (Epic Jack of Air for under 200, Sentry is even cheaper).

And in any case the detection passive remains 100% useless in PVE.

^And this.

If you (the general "you") weren't using Sentry and Way of Air when they are supposedly So-Useful and wouldn't switch to using them if the Bosmer Detect passive was revoked, then you don't have an argument to make. I will and have (reluctantly, but I have) stacked sets to get my stealth bonus back.

Would you stack Sentry and Way of Air to get your detection back because of how OP it supposedly is? Yes or no? I'm guessing no.

thegreatme wrote: »

I lol'ed.

thegreatme wrote: »

Literally the only time my Hunter's Eye has found anyone is when they were literally standing right on top of me, and then immediately they cloak away because -- again -- they have more warning that I'm there than I do to prepare their counter measure.

Often, we said "still better than nothing".
The funny thing is that we can't even say it with this half of the passive. At least, "nothing" wouldn't be detrimental.

But maybe that's the real reason ?
They believed that bosmers where too stealthy, even without the stealth radius, and added the detection radius to make it easier for our opponents to spot us. So in fact, from the devs point of view, our reaction would be the proof of their success ; that's why they don't answer and consider it Working as Intended. (this forum lack a "mad" and a "sarcastic" smileys)
Now, all is clear... We have discovered the truth !

It's a pity the Bosmer have a useless stealth detect bonus instead of a far more useful wallet detection bonus. I can't seem to find any means to buy anything during the upcoming sale. Guess I'll just do without.