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Disparity Between Mag and Stam DPS: Focused on Sets

wills43b14_ESO
wills43b14_ESO
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Hello Everyone,

I'm sure a lot of people have seen discussions regarding how stam sets are better than mag sets. This has mostly been a problem since Summserset with the release of Relequen and Siroria (although Velidreth, which is getting nerfed on PTS in favor of Maarselok, is still a contentious point too compared to Zaan).

Long Version:
Relequen is pure damage gained from simply stacking LAs on a target (and allowing mobility) whereas magicka relies on staying stagnant to build up stacks of siroria which add SD. This in itself isn't a problem and if Siroria were a stam set, 600 WD would go a long way with WD modifiers stam has (granted, the nerf to Flawless DB goes a long ways here). However, magicka tends to scale poorly with SD as most magicka modifers are resource (max magicka) based rather than SD based... this disparity resurfaces through the ages with the introduction of sets such as Spell Strategist as well. Keep in mind magicka rarely are offered the chance to stay stagnant and thus keeping this set up and running requires extreme amounts of effort (if possible) relative to keeping relequen going with bow LAs on transitions or mechanics. Compared to other magicka sets (such as FGD in Elsweyr or Spell Strategist, which does lack cleave) Siroria is oftentimes used purely for parse fights and mechanics and creates disparity between dummy parses and actual raid encounters where mag is scarce at the score pusher level anyways. Relequen, on the other hand, can be used in most fights (albeit lacking cleave, which is usually not an issue for most trials/encounters) even if they require extreme amounts of movement and gives a flat damage boost rather than a boost to skill damage (i.e. it's more of a proc set). If we consider monster helms, magicka's counterpart to velidreth, zaan, suffers from the same problems as Siroria and additionally requires mag to be in melee distance which may not always be possible. With the release of Wrathstone and Elsweyr, the set disparity has only gotten worse with the release of Tzogvin and Tooth of Lokkestiiz, both VERY powerful sets in their own right with no counterpart in mag. Mag Crit % is also low enough that sets like Mother's Sorrow (possibly w/ the exception of Magcro in certain sets/circumstances) are still required to maximize magicka dps. Stam does not suffer from these problems and only benefits from sets such as Tzogvin, which provides NEARLY EQUAL crit compared to Mother's Sorrow as well as Minor Force (and synergizes well w/ stam's lack of pen on the fights it's typically used in over Relequen). Lokkestiiz just added to the punishing disparity mag faces vs. every stam, as it is a high uptime source of Major Slayer on self with complementary sources of weapon damage and crit (all help make up for the lack of AY, which is not as important on Stamcro).

Tl;dr:
Stam sets provide more utility, are easier to use or require less skill to maintain generally (Relequen vs. Siroria), and generally cohesive with stam identity and modifiers (weapon damage and weapon damage modifiers vs. SD and max magicka modifiers). Example set disparities include Zaan (melee range only), Siroria, False God's Devotion, and Mother's Sorrow. Stam counterparts that are generally better (in order of their mag counterparts) include Velidreth/Maarselok (Maarselok on PTS), Relequen, Lokkestiiz, and Tzogvin's Warband.


As an example of how powerful Lokkestiiz is, here's an example of a friend's magcro parses comparing Mother's Sorrow to Lokkestiiz:
in8xe9qdg4qx.png

Notes:
1. Mother's Sorrow PROBABLY performs a bit better than Lokkestiiz, but the number of Light Attacks (and LA ratio) on the Lokke parse increased, which led to a DPS increase there
2. Magcro has internal crit added in execute (not shown on CMX) which helps to offset the loss of Mother's Sorrow a bit, but other classes wouldn't fail as well
3. Magcro has its own synergy which allowed for an amazingly high Major Slayer uptime (this would not be as common in a trial and lead to a dps reduction relative to Mother's Sorrow)
4. The point here is that a Stam set can provide so much utility that it's actually viable on magicka without losing extraordinary amounts of dps - something that is NOT conversely true for stam sets using magicka sets... point being stam sets provide a lot of utility that mag sets do not get (or counterpart sets just provide less utility in general; ex. Tzogvin's Warband and Mother's Sorrow)
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  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    Another example he posted with Relequen and Siroria (for reference the highest PTS parse I've seen w/ magcro is ~ 94k from a GOOD mag player - this guy posting this parse is a stam main and hasn't played mag quite awhile)
    h8rnm4ozy36b.png
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  • kalunte
    kalunte
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    meh.
    Edited by kalunte on July 17, 2019 9:20PM
  • wills43b14_ESO
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    Yes he overcritted in execute (and is overpenned slightly), but when you consider how close that is it is still ridiculous. Overpenning aside, A STAM SET SHOULD NOT BE VIABLE LIKE THAT ON MAG. IF YOU REALLY WANT: I can provide something similar on magsorc or other classes. The point here was to illustrate the power of stamina sets vs. magicka sets, which you seem to have completely missed on a detail which does not change that conclusion.
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  • MartiniDaniels
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    That's best explanation i've seen - if lokkestiz on magtoon is comparable to BiS magicka set, then something is very wrong with set balance..
  • Kolzki
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    Mag necros should be expected to over crit. Their execute passive doesn’t appear on their stat sheet. It’s a modifier on targets that are in execute, not a character stat increase.
  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    When I say comparable it is a DPS loss, but it should be a much larger DPS loss than what it actually is (after some practice w/ ideal sets, the person in question doing these parses is at 90k now, but the idea still stands). I would guess those hitting 94k on magcro would hit about 87-89k w/ Lokke. If I tested the same w/ magsorc (with some adjustments for spell crit) it would probably only perform about 5-7k dps lower as well. That's how powerful Major Slayer and Stam utility is.
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  • wills43b14_ESO
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    Yeah I'd say him overcritting by a max of 8% (iirc, would need to check passives and mafs) isn't too much of a loss given the length of pre-execute generally.
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  • wills43b14_ESO
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    Take out a source of minor prophecy and he's no longer overcritting anyways....
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  • wills43b14_ESO
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    Another note I'd like to add:

    Mag is very homogenous on PTS and the gap b/w stam and mag on a parse dummy will likely get a bit smaller than it currently is. However, the reality is support choose b/w stam support and mag support sets/skills and the gap b/w stam and mag is still quite large in trials, so I predict even w/ some advances in mag dps we're likely gonna see a stam meta still.


    With all the dots parsing on mag atm is quite crazy too relative to stam (a lot are abandoning spammables completely in their parses)
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on July 17, 2019 9:48PM
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  • WrathOfInnos
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    I agree with a lot of your points. It actually seems like some sets are intentionally given to the build type that benefits the least from it. You mention Siroria and Spell Strat, both which have specific requirements that are not ideal for Magicka (typically ranged, moving around to do mechanics, and doing most of the splash damage required to kill adds). Stamina DPS look at these sets longingly since they are often stationary and focused on a single target, while having an excellent multiplier on any Weapon Damage bonuses. Tzogvin’s is exactly the opposite situation, it’s relatively good for stamina DPS, but with rearming/barbed trap they don’t really need the Minor Force and with daggers they aren’t really lacking in crit. Magicka DPS would love a set like Tzogvin’s because they don’t have as many good option for increasing Spell Crit (which is why Mother’s Sorrow has become a necessity for so many Magicka builds) or obtaining Minor Force (nobody likes having to pause their rotation and slowly cast Channeled Acceleration, a skill which does no damage). Similar logic applies to Advancing Yokeda, which is starting to fall out of use on Stam DPS with all the newer, better options. Magicka DPS would kill for a set that gives more crit than Mother’s Sorrow and could be run on front bar only without losing any uptime.

    Zaan also suffers from build envy, since a melee-range single target monster set would be incredible for a Stamina DPS, but instead it’s wasted with a Spell Crit bonus and a Magicka-based damage type (Fire). Sure Magicka builds get some use out of it, but in many cases they cannot. Stormfist is the opposite, a great proc that works from any range and deals mostly lightning damage, with some AoE splash. It would be an excellent choice for a Mag Sorcerer, except that it has a useless Stamina Recovery 1pc bonus instead of something like Spell Damage or Spell Crit (the stam recovery might be ok for PvP, but a stationary proc set is not going to win any fights in that environment anyway).

    False Gods is another funny example, since VO has been largely forgotten by Stamina DPS, but the new Magicka equivalent has quickly become one of the favorite sets (sure it’s slightly more powerful with the additional Perfected set bonus, but even the non-perfect version seems to get more use than VO these days). Hopefully they bring some other sets over to the opposite build type, since there are plenty above that would be great candidates.

    Lokkestiiz is a strange one that doesn’t really fit into the pattern. I don’t like the way it was implemented, since it really only served to kill off War Machine and Master Architect. It could have been an interesting damage set, buffing the user after synergy use just like Moondancer. But for some reason it was given the Major Slayer buff instead, introducing redundancies and effectively killing off the low-ulti cost buff builds that had such a significant role in trial groups up until the release of Elsweyr.
  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    I completely agree with all of your points, many of which were explained better than mine (ex. I just hinted at how mag would like tzogvin, but stam uses it when they must). Lokke is the the counterpart I put in there that didn't have a direct mag counterpart. I didn't make comparisons in my long version, but in my TL;DR I did compare it to FGD, which really doesn't make sense except temporally. I think a big reason WHY mag runs FGD right now is a clear lack of better sets LIKE Lokke and general lack of support sets (worm, a magicka version of sentinel, etc.) and uptimes on ele drain (in worse groups). All in all, support are set up to support stam and supporting magicka is definitely harder when groups bother to support mag. pFGD helps make mag lives easier than Siroria (with little damage loss) and can make up for poor sustain situations where healers do not keep up ele drain well, throw orbs well, or have symphony (an unreliable source of regen). Or, in general, trials tend to have mechanics that drain mag, but a stam counterpart doesn't really exist except for occasional blocking/roll dodging in some trials.

    As far as MA/WM go.... I agree. On the mag side, magsorc vs magplar is contentious on live (some sorcs help w/ the atro buff and minor prophecy, but in general magplar is probably the better option w/ cleave and dps), but magplar can provide MA reasonably well (or magblades, which are the king for MA uptimes, but unfortunately nerfed pretty hard at the moment). On the stam side there's no need of course, but it would have made stamblades a good choice to include w/ stamcros in terms of group utility/buffs. Is 5-7% major vuln (and a bit more solo dps) better than 30% major slayer on a significant portion of the group? Probably not. Lokke is an odd set without a counterpart that killed diversity like you said.
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  • md3788
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    3. Magcro has its own synergy which allowed for an amazingly high Major Slayer uptime (this would not be as common in a trial and lead to a dps reduction relative to Mother's Sorrow)

    Actually should have no issue getting better uptimes in a raid with a half decent group with all the various synergies floating around
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  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    To build on the earlier points: Mother's Sorrow is just another example of VO. Mag lacked VO for years and Mag has also lacked something like AY and now lacks Tzogvin, so we use Mother's Sorrow an "outdated" (but good) set.
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on July 17, 2019 10:50PM
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  • wills43b14_ESO
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    @md3788 how many groups meet that level of skill? It's less than what you probably think. Most of the time, major slayer will be less than 95-100% probably. That's not to say the potential isn't there, but only a fraction of the groups have probably optimized to that point... and they're probably the score/HM pushing groups. One synergy is still pretty powerful, however, so 80-90% should still be pretty easy to achieve for the most part.

    I could be underestimating player/group skill as well, that's just an opinion w/ little to back it up other than a gut feeling. 95-100% should be every groups goal as it doesn't take too much with proper setups.

    Edit: for reference I was assuming in a trial he would have less than 96% uptime (which would make the set definitively worse on mag), but you're very right to where 96% could be pretty realistic for some groups/players.
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on July 17, 2019 10:49PM
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  • akray21
    akray21
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    I think it's important that melee DPS remains higher than ranged.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    akray21 wrote: »
    I think it's important that melee DPS remains higher than ranged.

    but, like, why? and how much more? because if it even 2% more, people will be mag is trash, elder stam online, blah blah blah, like they are now.


    then explain bow/bow builds and magdk too, what do you feel about them?
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on July 17, 2019 10:55PM
  • MartiniDaniels
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    akray21 wrote: »
    I think it's important that melee DPS remains higher than ranged.

    Make magicka dds parse from 16 meters of dummy and difference in dps with stamina will be notably higher then already big gap. I mean it's ok when stamina is slightly better. But if this patch goes live as it is, stamina is far superior in everything. Couple of magicka dds will be useful for additional utility and when additional spam of purge is required... but other then that.. no point.

    Also like many mentioned with current lag, distant light attacks are often disappearing in nowhere, while melee light attacks are instant and much more stable... also new vigor...
  • wills43b14_ESO
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    I know a lot of people say that, and to some degree I agree tbh. Yes that means score pushers will all choose melee. I think in trials though, a 5k dps difference is more than sufficient (w/ bow/bow being the same or worse than mag; imo it should do 3-4k worse than mag to encourage variety). Think about it this way @akray21, support have to ensure maximum uptimes on engulfing and ele drain for mag to min-max... it makes a difference. In this sense if the difference is 3-4k in trials I'm still okay w/ that. However, I didn't discuss the OTHER disadvantages mag has here.

    As a quick example: DPS sources. Stam traditionally has let dots and relequen do the talking for their dps (still the same mostly). Mag has let their LAs do the talking. During mechanically/movement intense phases, mag also lose out on more dps due to a loss of LAs, which make up 20% of your DPS at the higher end on live (and PTS too I believe). Any sort of mistake, lag, or other influences compound this fact pretty quickly. Most end-game players can pick up stamsorc rn and hit upper 90ks and into the 100ks fairly easily as long as they nail the rotation. Assuming a static rotation on mag (lul at this point on PTS atm), this isn't necessarily the case, cause a bad LA ratio is MUCH more influential here than on stam.

    Overarching point: In a pure parse fight stam dps should be 3-4k dps higher.... but mag is also heavily punished for doing anything besides parsing as well, so melee vs. ranged isn't as bad as you think it is. Stam can leave dots ticking w/o losing much dps whereas mag loses dps quite drastically (i.e. a higher skill gap for mechanics from a parsing standpoint).

    For posterity: I suppose the new vMA dagger rapid strikes spam sorta negates this point now, but I have a feeling that's not gonna make it to live unchecked lol
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on July 17, 2019 11:07PM
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  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    3-4k doesn't mean much without context. 3-4k at 100k DPS is 3-4%, 3-4k at 50k DPS is 6-8% more.

    You say bow/bow ought to do even less then that, which is insane.
  • Kolzki
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    Definitely sad to see the death of war machine/master architect. I should add war machine to my “nerfed gear” chest next to my old night mother’s gaze and sunderflame gear. I should rename that chest to “dead stamina support sets”.
  • Strider__Roshin
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    Okay I'm not a PvEer but I don't agree with the idea of the DPS meta being determined by the potency of armor sets that give away free damage. Abilities, skill rotation, and proper timing should be what determines who's on top. I also believe that there should be a reciprocal relationship between damage and survivability, and I also believe that the more difficult something is the more rewarding it should be as well.
  • Sanguinor2
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    Yeah Relequen and Lokke are in their own league for single target, Nothing mag has Comes close to the power of those two sets.
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  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    For what it's worth @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO I don't mean on a 6m test dummy and I should clarify I'm speaking of a pure linear value (assuming DPS increases/decreases linearly in various situations), so from 100k dps it would narrow down by 0.5 at 50k dps (100k dps is 50k dps and 97k dps is 48.5k dps - linear shrinkage). I should have clarified that from the start. For future reference, I'm pretty much referencing the 21m iron atro when talking about parsing unless I specifically mention trials as well ^_^.

    Also, I wouldn't apply a % of dmg there, it's rather confusing in the wrong way.


    Ex. I ate 2g of protein for breakfast and then ate 4g for lunch. I can now say I'm eating 200% of the protein I ate for breakfast (100% from breakfast, i.e. the 2g, plus the additional 2g for lunch, i.e. the other 100%). If I said I was eating 200% more protein, most people would be like "wow". In reality that % means nothing.
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on July 18, 2019 12:11AM
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  • wills43b14_ESO
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    Daus wrote: »
    Okay I'm not a PvEer but I don't agree with the idea of the DPS meta being determined by the potency of armor sets that give away free damage. Abilities, skill rotation, and proper timing should be what determines who's on top. I also believe that there should be a reciprocal relationship between damage and survivability, and I also believe that the more difficult something is the more rewarding it should be as well.

    @Daus the parses I speak of generally reflect the avg differences (and this holds true for the top end of each spec - i.e. the "best" mag parses I've seen and the "best" stam parses I've seen). This damage difference can be seen as directly attributable to something different b/w mag and stam that way unless stam players are mostly inherently better than mag (which isn't necessarily true as many play both, which helps alleviate that point). Immediately, when losing sets such as lokke and relequen for other sets, the dps drop is notable whereas losing siroria for FGD or SS is much less noticeable. It doesn't take much looking into to determine this.

    If you mean you don't agree w/ ZOS letting stam sets carry this way then my bad for misunderstanding XD. In which case, that's why I argue Siroria is a skill-capped set (skill makes a difference) whereas Relequen is more proc oriented (non-skill or at least less skill to maintain). As for survivability, in the past mag had the upper hand, but next patch w/ shield cost increases/weakening and buffs to stam major evasion skills/vigor (ntm inherently higher armor from medium armor over light), I'd say stam will easily have the upper hand there too.
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  • md3788
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    @wills43b14_ESO he reached 96% on the dummy parse? I assumed he was much lower which is why I stated it shouldn’t be hard. So yeah you may be right - really depends on the group
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  • ecru
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    akray21 wrote: »
    I think it's important that melee DPS remains higher than ranged.

    I agree with this, and mag necro has to be played in melee range already to reach it's full potential, so mag necro should clearly do as much as melee ;)
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  • wills43b14_ESO
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    Yeah if you look in the posted parse he's at 96% lol. @ecru then all mag w/ zaan and siroria should be equal to stam since that's pretty much the same condition XD. Nah stam (if fully melee) SHOULD be higher, but not by what it is right now. In that sense, MagDK also needs a buff.
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  • Seraphayel
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    Stamina being something like 5-10% ahead? Okay, I am fine with that.

    Now please compare Stamina vs Magicka builds for the classes. The differences in the overwhelming amount of parses will be much more than just 10%. In some cases it’s rather towards 20% which should never be the case yet it’s normal for quite some time now and seems to be normal for at least another 3 months when U23 is live.
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  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    @Seraphayel %s are vague. Like we said earlier, 4-5k at 50k dps is not the same at 100k dps. At 100k dps 10% is 10k dps, which is significant. Multiply that value by 8 and that's a whopping 80k group dps (that's big as all get out in trials). I digress though, cause the actual difference is higher than 10k anyways in actual trial situations.
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  • wills43b14_ESO
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    That can mean the difference between skipping mechanics like maze in vMoL or not skipping.
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