Ive found many Sorcs fighting at my side or against me in BGs. It´s a large player base so makes sense. In one vs one i fear them much less than any tank build with s&b. I hate NBs much more than Sorc pets. Need to play counter vs them, vs sorcs i just need to dodgeroll fast, leave pets behind and then attack them from close distance.

Sorcs still bring a few unique things to a trials group. A group of 8 Sorcs is not going to be the best, but I believe 1-2 Sorcs make the entire group perform better.

Conduits

In a time where Stamina DPS wearing Lokkestiiz is the meta, synergies are incredibly valuable. Each Mag Sorc can provide a Conduit every 8s with Lightning Flood (don’t use Liquid Lightning for a group synergy build). With a typical stack of 4 DPS (half the group, split for mechanics and/or buff uptimes) the Sorc can provide a Conduit to each of the other 3 DPS every 24s. The damage of the Conduit is about equal to one spammable attack, without requiring a global cooldown, and it gives back 4% of each resource (health, mag, and stam) through the Undaunted Command passive. This is usually around 1400-1500 primary resource restored, so each Sorc provides around 60 mag or stam per second to 3 other DPS.

Now back to Lokke uptime, any Stamina DPS wearing this set can get 15/24 = 62% Major Slayer uptime from just Conduits if they have a Sorc in their stack. Now I doubt they were only getting 38% uptime without a Sorc, so they probably will not see this full gain, but it can definitely make a large difference in getting from current uptime to 100% Major Slayer. If synergies are plentiful, then Stam Necro's may also be able to drop Boneyard from their bars (as a Magicka-based skill it doesn't really do much damage for them).

Storm Atronach

While objectively less powerful than other group DPS ultimates (like Necromancer Colossus), the Storm Atronach remains one of the most powerful single-target DPS ultimates in the game (if you are using Daedric Prey to buff it). The Major Berserk it provides for a group member is not bad either. While active it's around 17% DPS gain for the recipient, and at an uptime of about 14% seconds it can increase one group member's DPS by ~2.4%. Not a massive impact on a group scale, but if there are 1-2 DPS in group that are pulling more than their weight, its always nice to give them a boost for some impressive parses.

Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance

For bosses, this is typically covered by a healer in IA, so there is not much to be gained. On trash, however, IA does not work well since a healer cannot possibly heavy attack every enemy. A single Sorc using Shock Ring with a Charged Lightning Staff can easily approach 100% uptime on all enemies, resulting in a group DPS increase of nearly 8% when clearing trash. If you have 2 Sorcs then you don't even need the Charged trait, and Sharpened or Precise can be used instead. The other nice thing about the Minor Vuln caused by the Concussion status effect is that it makes targets susceptible to off-balance from the next tick of a Lightning Wall of Elements. Since trash does not have an off-balance immunity period like bosses, high uptime of this can be a massive group DPS increase from the Exploiter passive that gives 10% bonus damage (which all Stamina and some Magicka DPS should have unlocked from CP's). And while groups with no Sorc can have a Stam Necro use Scythe for Off-Balance, the area is much smaller and they lose a lot of damage if they're not spamming Reverse Slice, Acid Spray, or Whirling.

Another situation where Minor Vuln is beneficial is for mechanics that separate DPS from a healer, such as fighting the Eternal Servant in vSS. When I do this fight on my Sorc, I can keep around 80% Minor Vuln and 25% Off-Balance on the Servant, resulting in about 8-9% more DPS from all 3 players downstairs.

Off Heals

With the current Twilight Matriarch meta, every Sorc should have access to a powerful burst heal whenever needed. While it may not be needed on a perfectly smooth run, I can't count the number of times this has prevented a wipe. That Matriarch can easily save the tank when healers are focusing something else, or help with a variety of other situations. When a healer or tank ends up in an Ice Cage during Lokkestiiz HM, the Matriarch is key to getting them out quickly. Or going back to Nahvii downstairs, the burst heal has saved many runs where someone got clipped by too many Call Lightning's, and were unable to heal themselves quick enough (in a negate or just taking damage faster than HoTs could restore health).

Range

Probably less quantifiable than the benefits listed above. But I believe there are definitely some advantages to having some ranged DPS. It is certainly safer for the individual to be at range, but I'd argue it's also safer for the melee stack when a few people move out to ranged distance. When everyone is clumped together in melee range it becomes difficult to see any mechanics or enemy telegraphs. It also ensures that all the AoE mechanics fall in one place (things like Meteors, or enemies jumping to a random player), when its actually much safer for everyone to spread these mechanics over a larger area (they are literally designed to be anti-stack mechanics). Additionally, having a few people outside of a melee stack (and not taking much damage) ensures that heals go to the ones who need them.

Negate

While extremely situational, Negate can be very useful in some places. In vAS for example, it can be used to remove the poison pools left behind after Llothis teleports. I wouldn't recommend trying to use it on every pool since that would be a large DPS loss, but if there is one in a particularly inconvenient place that would lead to hazardous kiting for Storm of the Heavens then having a Negate can save lives. It is also nice for some things like Yolnahkriin HM Fire Atronachs, which can be stunned for 12s by a Negate, buying a lot of time to kill them before they enrage (turn blue and kill everyone nearby). There are a handful of other situations where Negate can be used, but I won't list them all here.

Minor Prophecy

This was once the most important thing Sorcs brought to the table, but it's definitely become less valuable in the age of Stamina. Still if there are any other Magicka DPS of other classes in group, the 6% Spell Crit is very nice to have, resulting in around 4% DPS increase for anyone casting spells. Even without any Mag DPS, the 6% Spell Crit can make things easier for healers, since their heals also get a boost from Spell Crit.


So in summary, it is true that Sorcs are not top DPS, and you won't see them breaking any parse records on a boss like Yolnahkriin. However they still bring a lot of utility to a group, and can increase group DPS overall, while also creating a situation where trial runs go smoother and have lower risk.

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Everyone knows that MagSorc has been brutally nerfed in this last update. It was no longer that strong over the last year or so anyway. Agreed that at one time it was OP and needed tweaking, and this was definitely done. But most abilities have now had dps, healing and cc reduced even further, and drastically so. And you may as well forget about PetSorcs, who have had both dps and healing viciously slashed, thus rendering PetSorcs pretty much useless.

It's almost as if a part of the population have a vendetta against Sorcs, and ZOS devs have been taken in by the persuasion. I cannot think of any other explanation why a class should be so comprehensively destroyed.

So, does MagSorc have anything to bring to the table anymore? If you were compiling a PVE group, would you include a MagSorc? What will happen if many players abandon their Sorcs due to their current unplayability? What will that do to the balance of the game?

couldn't agree more, and this is coming from a pvp perspective! we've had 3 cc's in the last year alone gutted no one wants to acknowledge this and that isnt including my entire back bar nerfed, healing ward hardened harness dark deal, overload ,resto ult. survival ability is a joke on non pet, and even pet the class doesn't have much to offer! Pets are bad for the game and the play style is cheese but they rewarded it offer traditional sorc . LOGIC!

There’s rally only one loss to the MagSorc and that’s

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Sorcs still bring a few unique things to a trials group. A group of 8 Sorcs is not going to be the best, but I believe 1-2 Sorcs make the entire group perform better.

Conduits

In a time where Stamina DPS wearing Lokkestiiz is the meta, synergies are incredibly valuable. Each Mag Sorc can provide a Conduit every 8s with Lightning Flood (don’t use Liquid Lightning for a group synergy build). With a typical stack of 4 DPS (half the group, split for mechanics and/or buff uptimes) the Sorc can provide a Conduit to each of the other 3 DPS every 24s. The damage of the Conduit is about equal to one spammable attack, without requiring a global cooldown, and it gives back 4% of each resource (health, mag, and stam) through the Undaunted Command passive. This is usually around 1400-1500 primary resource restored, so each Sorc provides around 60 mag or stam per second to 3 other DPS.

Now back to Lokke uptime, any Stamina DPS wearing this set can get 15/24 = 62% Major Slayer uptime from just Conduits if they have a Sorc in their stack. Now I doubt they were only getting 38% uptime without a Sorc, so they probably will not see this full gain, but it can definitely make a large difference in getting from current uptime to 100% Major Slayer. If synergies are plentiful, then Stam Necro's may also be able to drop Boneyard from their bars (as a Magicka-based skill it doesn't really do much damage for them).

Storm Atronach

While objectively less powerful than other group DPS ultimates (like Necromancer Colossus), the Storm Atronach remains one of the most powerful single-target DPS ultimates in the game (if you are using Daedric Prey to buff it). The Major Berserk it provides for a group member is not bad either. While active it's around 17% DPS gain for the recipient, and at an uptime of about 14% seconds it can increase one group member's DPS by ~2.4%. Not a massive impact on a group scale, but if there are 1-2 DPS in group that are pulling more than their weight, its always nice to give them a boost for some impressive parses.

Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance

For bosses, this is typically covered by a healer in IA, so there is not much to be gained. On trash, however, IA does not work well since a healer cannot possibly heavy attack every enemy. A single Sorc using Shock Ring with a Charged Lightning Staff can easily approach 100% uptime on all enemies, resulting in a group DPS increase of nearly 8% when clearing trash. If you have 2 Sorcs then you don't even need the Charged trait, and Sharpened or Precise can be used instead. The other nice thing about the Minor Vuln caused by the Concussion status effect is that it makes targets susceptible to off-balance from the next tick of a Lightning Wall of Elements. Since trash does not have an off-balance immunity period like bosses, high uptime of this can be a massive group DPS increase from the Exploiter passive that gives 10% bonus damage (which all Stamina and some Magicka DPS should have unlocked from CP's). And while groups with no Sorc can have a Stam Necro use Scythe for Off-Balance, the area is much smaller and they lose a lot of damage if they're not spamming Reverse Slice, Acid Spray, or Whirling.

Another situation where Minor Vuln is beneficial is for mechanics that separate DPS from a healer, such as fighting the Eternal Servant in vSS. When I do this fight on my Sorc, I can keep around 80% Minor Vuln and 25% Off-Balance on the Servant, resulting in about 8-9% more DPS from all 3 players downstairs.

Off Heals

With the current Twilight Matriarch meta, every Sorc should have access to a powerful burst heal whenever needed. While it may not be needed on a perfectly smooth run, I can't count the number of times this has prevented a wipe. That Matriarch can easily save the tank when healers are focusing something else, or help with a variety of other situations. When a healer or tank ends up in an Ice Cage during Lokkestiiz HM, the Matriarch is key to getting them out quickly. Or going back to Nahvii downstairs, the burst heal has saved many runs where someone got clipped by too many Call Lightning's, and were unable to heal themselves quick enough (in a negate or just taking damage faster than HoTs could restore health).

Range

Probably less quantifiable than the benefits listed above. But I believe there are definitely some advantages to having some ranged DPS. It is certainly safer for the individual to be at range, but I'd argue it's also safer for the melee stack when a few people move out to ranged distance. When everyone is clumped together in melee range it becomes difficult to see any mechanics or enemy telegraphs. It also ensures that all the AoE mechanics fall in one place (things like Meteors, or enemies jumping to a random player), when its actually much safer for everyone to spread these mechanics over a larger area (they are literally designed to be anti-stack mechanics). Additionally, having a few people outside of a melee stack (and not taking much damage) ensures that heals go to the ones who need them.

Negate

While extremely situational, Negate can be very useful in some places. In vAS for example, it can be used to remove the poison pools left behind after Llothis teleports. I wouldn't recommend trying to use it on every pool since that would be a large DPS loss, but if there is one in a particularly inconvenient place that would lead to hazardous kiting for Storm of the Heavens then having a Negate can save lives. It is also nice for some things like Yolnahkriin HM Fire Atronachs, which can be stunned for 12s by a Negate, buying a lot of time to kill them before they enrage (turn blue and kill everyone nearby). There are a handful of other situations where Negate can be used, but I won't list them all here.

Minor Prophecy

This was once the most important thing Sorcs brought to the table, but it's definitely become less valuable in the age of Stamina. Still if there are any other Magicka DPS of other classes in group, the 6% Spell Crit is very nice to have, resulting in around 4% DPS increase for anyone casting spells. Even without any Mag DPS, the 6% Spell Crit can make things easier for healers, since their heals also get a boost from Spell Crit.


So in summary, it is true that Sorcs are not top DPS, and you won't see them breaking any parse records on a boss like Yolnahkriin. However they still bring a lot of utility to a group, and can increase group DPS overall, while also creating a situation where trial runs go smoother and have lower risk.

Great summary of their current strengths now.

The issues that come in with the new patch:
Conduit: A DPS loss to run this on single target bosses now so MagSorcs will generally be reluctant to do so.
Off Heals: Matriarch is a huge DPS loss and won't be run any more.

It just weakens them.

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Do you play sorc? I do often. I don't think I'll be playing it next patch tho. It takes nerfs repeatedly, and has no survivability now. Most sorcs are now running double sustain sets or defence and sustain set combos. There are to to many classes in this game to waste your time playing a glass bb gun that can streak

My main DPS is a Magsorc. The survivability is huge and always has been. A very strong heal. An excellent damage shield and Power Surge (and the heal pet if you run it, I dont). Thats before we put any sets on!

Magsorcs also happen to be a go to class for folk learning vMA... because of their survivability.

Honestly Ive no idea where some folk get these ideas from, its like they are in an alternate universe.

Sorcerers are one of the few classes you are complete versatile. You can do many kind of different builds, with pets, without, magicka, stamina and etc. In Bgs sometimes is very hard to fight a sorc that does a lot of damage, have dmg shields and teleport from one side to the other.

For funsies I suppose. Elden Root is still teeming with Matriarchs, sooooo...

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

mag sorcs still pulling 90k+ on PTS.

What are normal players doing, though?

Not trying hard enough.
Xynode's Easy Sorc still works. Slap additional Degen or Soul Trap with Power/Critical Surge and you get your damage back.

Easy Sorc ( which has inferior DPS to petsorc, magsorc, every stam build of the game, btw. Ive played it and left it due inferior DPS, group utility and reliance on HAs ) has reliance on these skills:
1- Elemental Blockade (nerfed)
2- Liquid Lighning (nerfed)
3- Daedric Tomb
4- Mage´s wrath.

The idea of this guy was to do loads of AOE. He uses Lightning staff. He uses Infallible Aether and Undaunted Infiltrator sets to get maximum HA damage. With AOE Skills nerfed, are you sure this build will retain good DPS compared with other builds? I disagree. Actually, Degen or Soul Trap wont get the Lightning Staff bonus. We´re forced to use Fire now.

If you expect Sorcs use so subpar builds means you either have no idea about Sorcerers or you want Sorcerers in the dirt.

Having played Easy Sorc on PTS over the last two weeks, I can say authoritatively that not only has this build not been hit very hard at all by the changes (I recreated my Easy Sorc from Live directly to PTS, changing nothing - CPs, gear, enchants, traits, skills, rotation, etc., and even with the current tri-focus bug I was still sleepwalking my way to 43k single target) with the inevitable tweaks that Xy will be making to the build to reflect the changes once it hits Live I am expecting it to get stronger. Already on PTS by only changing two morphs I’m back up to where I was on Live - and again, I’m still using the exact same CPs and everything else.

YMMV.

As far as “group utility” goes...not sure where you’re coming from there, TBH. Since I’m aheavy attack with lightning staff-ing, wall of elements dropping, IA-wearing Shock Sorc, I can just about guarantee 100% uptime on concussion and consistent off-balance off cooldown, plus I supply minor prophecy every rotation (guaranteeing a 100% uptime), plus though my single target damage is good, my AOE damage (and yes, I’m talking on PTS, with the current “nerfs”, and with tri-focus currently bugged) is insane. Adds melt.

Plus, I’m usually the DPS rezzing the squishy glass cannons, given the build’s high resists.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Everyone knows that MagSorc has been brutally nerfed in this last update. It was no longer that strong over the last year or so anyway. Agreed that at one time it was OP and needed tweaking, and this was definitely done. But most abilities have now had dps, healing and cc reduced even further, and drastically so. And you may as well forget about PetSorcs, who have had both dps and healing viciously slashed, thus rendering PetSorcs pretty much useless.

It's almost as if a part of the population have a vendetta against Sorcs, and ZOS devs have been taken in by the persuasion. I cannot think of any other explanation why a class should be so comprehensively destroyed.

So, does MagSorc have anything to bring to the table anymore? If you were compiling a PVE group, would you include a MagSorc? What will happen if many players abandon their Sorcs due to their current unplayability? What will that do to the balance of the game?

Um... as a noob player, I play a Pet Sorc because I find it to be fun. I don't find it to be Unplayable or useless. Just my opinion. Yours may vary.

Also congratulations on winning my personal Buzz Word Bingo Game. You used both "Useless" and "Unplayable" in the same post.

Future changes to Orbs (Orbs wont dissapear once people use synergy, and will bring synergy to everyone able to perform a synergy) will mean every Stamina DPS will have always a synergy ready, meaning magicka classes which are synergy providers will be less and less useful.