Off-meta healer identity crisis

BennyButton · July 2019

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

Dragonknight:
Cinder storm should add something else to the heal or increase the radius for it to be competitive with templar's ritual

Enjoy!!

giantpixie · July 2019

Cinder storm needs a synergy maybe giving a small damage shield to stick with the dks shielding theme.

Sorcs I’m not sure about lightning form as you would always need to be stacked on your tank for them to benefit. But I agree sorc needs something

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2019

Make daedric tomb a ground AOE hot. Last for 20 seconds and heal every second, to match the duration of the sorc crit passive.

Royaji · July 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Make drastic tomb a ground AOE hot. Last for 20 seconds and heal every second, to match the duration of the sorc crit passive.

"Drastic Tomb" sound like the kind of spell that seeks out the nearest dead ally, puts a pretty tombstone on their location with something like "I'm sorry for failing you as a sorc healer, next time I will come on a Templar like Brian Wheeler wants me to" written on it.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2019

Royaji wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Make drastic tomb a ground AOE hot. Last for 20 seconds and heal every second, to match the duration of the sorc crit passive.

"Drastic Tomb" sound like the kind of spell that seeks out the nearest dead ally, puts a pretty tombstone on their location with something like "I'm sorry for failing you as a sorc healer, next time I will come on a Templar like Brian Wheeler wants me to" written on it.

Right. You know I meant daedric tomb, no reason to be so cringy about it.

sindalstar · July 2019

Ok, so lets look at what all the off meta healers have, purely in the healing department. They have other strengths like more synergies or being more offensive focused etc but looking at the pure 'not let other people die' area...

There's nightbalde.
-Soul siphon (Aoe ult heal)
-Funnel health (Psudo heal)
-Offering (HoT transfer)
-Refreshing Path (Aoe heal)

Dragon knights
-Cinder storm (Aoe heal)
-Magma shell (Shield for allies, still counts)
-Cauterize (Weird auto tracking heal)
-Obsidian shard (Weird enemy related heal)
-Fragmented sheild (Major mending and shield)

and Sorcerers
-Twilight Matriach (2 person strong heal)
-Absorbtion field (AOE heal ult)
...and thats it.

So lets ask
What abilities do they current have that could be changed to make way for 'emergency group healing' Since that's the only places the current aparent catastrpohy is showing up. All the healers should currently be able to handle the amount of healing required for a 4 man more or less. I don't know about numbers since I'm a Warden healer and thus am not an off meta.

All of them seemed to have a theme. Or atleast wanted to have a theme.

Templar healers are, which i imagine to be, cleric style. Pure on get dem hp. The 'white mage'
Warden healers are buffers, characterized by strengthening the party while responding quickly to threats.
Necros have the obvious corpse thing going on, plus having the only ultimate that fixes a wipe. Clear focus.

Now DK's. I imagine they were supposed to be the CC and shield healers. Mitigation boys.
Would it be strange if Either Cauterize or shard (on the healer morph) repeatly pulsed to targets around them?
Every couple seconds the shield keeps refreshing itself and possibly stacking. Looking at Cauterize, it's such a strange (every 5 second) limitator.

Nightblades, I imagine, where the offensive healers. Dark healers. Setting up the debuffs like lifesteal. They sound like the healer that would have a 'put curse on enemy, your allies deal your damage' kinda deal. Specificly a healer one so that other guys don't capitalize on it.
Why don't they get the first exclusive to 'major' lifesteal? To emphasis that they heal by praying on the enemy. That could be what Funnel's turned into, when shifting it to s supportive healer focus.
They have path, and that's getting buffed so no real qarms there.

Sorcerer...
Sorceror is the odd kid whne it comes to healing...
Their kit is so inherently...selfish. Self sufficient.
Get pets so that you can help 'me' out. Bargain for power for 'me'

Some ideas (that are probably not original): Encase or rune prison getting a friendly version.
Something like 'roots allies infront of you briefly, allowing daetric energy to revitatlize them. Breaking the root is free, but if they stay still, they get extra healing. Alternatively, they get bonuses to their mitigation while they are encased instead of being able to break it, though that would get possibly griefy if the sorceres are able to root people and prevent them from doing a mechanic. This could really add into the whole 'we need to stack and stand still' sorta deal (Winter wyvern from Dota does this)

The daedric mines are a nice idea too. Place a bunch of healing spots in an area. They could either be consumed, or heal targets that are standing on them while the healpads are active. Could call it Daedric Nodes

Those are my suggestions anyway.

Iskiab · July 2019

sindalstar wrote: »

There's nightbalde.
-Soul siphon (Aoe ult heal)
-Funnel health (Psudo heal)
-Offering (HoT transfer)
-Refreshing Path (Aoe heal)

Nightblades, I imagine, where the offensive healers. Dark healers. Setting up the debuffs like lifesteal. They sound like the healer that would have a 'put curse on enemy, your allies deal your damage' kinda deal. Specificly a healer one so that other guys don't capitalize on it.
Why don't they get the first exclusive to 'major' lifesteal? To emphasis that they heal by praying on the enemy. That could be what Funnel's turned into, when shifting it to s supportive healer focus.
They have path, and that's getting buffed so no real qarms there.

I know NB best so I’ll give my thoughts on the NB class.

You forgot sap essence. NBs technically have just as many healing abilities as Templars but in practice not really.

NB in general:
NB healers work well by not using all the abilities that fall into the ‘Dark Healer’ category you describe. Only Healthy Offering, Refreshing Path and Soul Siphon work well, sap essence only in dungeons, and funnel health sucks.

Healthy Offering: zero complaints... except the values of aoe heals have been increased diminishing its value
Soul Siphon: zero complaints
Refreshing Path: values are great, small size can be an issue
Sap Essence: great in pve dungeons, impractical to use anywhere else
Funnel Health: complete trash. Heals for less than half of other abilities and does less then half the damage of other abilities, why would I ever slot or cast this?

I love your idea for the class, I think that would be a great way for the class to get back to it’s theme.

What’s typically held the class back is magblade dps can dip into the healer abilities which create issues. Healers don’t stack pure damage stats, and those damage stats translate into higher healing tooltips, so the healing abilities can be higher on a pure damage magblade then a NB healer.

I’ve been thinking about how to circumvent this issue and think the best way is to use %health healing abilities. They don’t scale with damage stats but will scale with %healing modifiers and crit. So abilities that when you use them heal the target for a % of the target’s health.

Another way to get around the issue is to jack up the power and magicka cost of healer abilities. Magblade dps will always steer clear of high cost magicka abilities so they can stack damage stats. Maybe change funnel health to heal 6 targets and double the magicka cost.

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

Kesstryl · July 2019

I agree with many of the other proposed changes in this thread, but don't touch lightning form on sorcs. My sorc tank needs that for damage mitigation.

sindalstar · July 2019

Kesstryl wrote: »

I agree with many of the other proposed changes in this thread, but don't touch lightning form on sorcs. My sorc tank needs that for damage mitigation.

I agree. If there was a 'tree' for healing and utility, the dark magic tree is the one that should take the bill since it's where the most space for utility is. Daedric summoning can dip, and lighting should be all about damage. Sorcerers strike me as 'unconventional' healers. Almost like experimenters. They'll heal you, but almost like your a test subject in their latest genius idea.

Templars do it out of presumably holy benevolence.
Wardens do it out of a need to protect the land and watch people grow
Nightblades want to see their enemies suffer and thus make it easier for you.
Dragonknights want to be beefy strong boys and stop the damage from even touching you.
And Necromancers...well, necromancy is the movement of life force. If they can take it away, they can put it back.

@Iskiab
Thanks! Sorry, i missed Sap. Ma bad.
Yeah funnel looked very odd to me. It has this 'do damage but affect more people to heal' thing going on but the heal depends on their offensive stats instead of their healing stats. Was out of place. If it was given a proper focus like my suggestion of major lifesteal or your 'heal 6 people' thing I feel it would be better accepted as a tool for healers. It's actually interesting that the class called 'nightblade' is technically the closest runner up in the healer race. Not that I have a say but I feel like that would help alot.

Dk healers? Sorcs? What are your thoughs on what you would change in your kits?

idk · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

It does seem your understanding of the Sorc is lacking. Sorcs have a heal they can use with one of the twilight morphs which works well for an off heal speck and does some damage as well. Burst heal serves an off heal speck much better than an AoE HoT.

It also seems odd you want to remove the magicka damage morph of lightning form and only leave a stamina damaging morph. This alone shows the though has lacked consideration for the game as a whole which is required for suggestions to have a solid basis.

Edit; and while yes, Zos is homogenizing many things I do not think they need our help as the above really seems to be homogenizing skills across classes.

Excelsus · July 2019

Royaji wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Make drastic tomb a ground AOE hot. Last for 20 seconds and heal every second, to match the duration of the sorc crit passive.

"Drastic Tomb" sound like the kind of spell that seeks out the nearest dead ally, puts a pretty tombstone on their location with something like "I'm sorry for failing you as a sorc healer, next time I will come on a Templar like Brian Wheeler wants me to" written on it.

Im dead. This is the best comment I have ever seen in these forums.

Faulgor · July 2019

sindalstar wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I agree with many of the other proposed changes in this thread, but don't touch lightning form on sorcs. My sorc tank needs that for damage mitigation.

I agree. If there was a 'tree' for healing and utility, the dark magic tree is the one that should take the bill since it's where the most space for utility is. Daedric summoning can dip, and lighting should be all about damage. Sorcerers strike me as 'unconventional' healers. Almost like experimenters. They'll heal you, but almost like your a test subject in their latest genius idea.

Templars do it out of presumably holy benevolence.
Wardens do it out of a need to protect the land and watch people grow
Nightblades want to see their enemies suffer and thus make it easier for you.
Dragonknights want to be beefy strong boys and stop the damage from even touching you.
And Necromancers...well, necromancy is the movement of life force. If they can take it away, they can put it back.

Sorcerers make deals with dark forces, such as Daedra or Ideal Masters. As such, their healing/support should probably come with a cost or downside, similar to Nightblades' Malevolent Offering or Necromancers' Render Flesh.

e.g.

Change Shattering Prison to Daedric Blessing: Heals every ally in the area for x and y over 10 seconds and grants Minor Ward and Minor Resolve. Applies Minor Breach and Minor Fracture to yourself.
Change Daedric Tomb to Soul Cairn: Ground Target AoE; Grants Minor Vitality for 12 seconds. When allies in the area fall below x% health, heal for x. Consumes 1 filled Soul Gem.

exeeter702 · July 2019

Before any elaborate discussions on healer balance, its important to understand that with how rigid ESO is designed, having certian class / role combos excel at certain encounters, while seems fine on paper just doesn't work in practice, simply because content in this game is not made to be so dynamic. Contrast this with older mmos such as ff11 where some jobs simply had no place in certain activities yet were mandatory in others which worked because of how lateral horizontal it was.

That being said, class roles in eso, any of the three, are inherently designed (as they should be) to function uniquely from one another. Meaning its not what the templar healer brings to the group, its how the templar acheives viable healing vs the other healers. Mechanical functionality is simply what needs to differentiate the healers. Any further depth attemped creates glaring issues and makes clear the rigidity of ESO end game design. This is the parity that ZOS refers so often. The SECOND one of the classes had exclusive access to an addtional synergy, or a critical support utility, every other healer is invalidated, as was the case for many years in ESO with templar healers until ZOD rightly began remedying the situation.

Dk healers need to take over from dk tanks in the group shielding department. Solve this by having fragmented shield scale more generously with magicka (obviously not annulment or ward ally levels) to provide a net positive return on group mitigation per GCD. They should player around a stricter resource managment thanks to battle roar and play proactive with mitigating damage with the occasional emergency heal. Synergy needs to be given to cinder storm.

NB healers unfortunately cant do inherently more damage than other healers as that sets an undesirable precedent. Major life steal and active healing through the damage they do and managing high risk vs high reward spells like healthy offering should be the name of their game. Synergy needs to be given to refreshing path.

BennyButton · July 2019

idk wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

It does seem your understanding of the Sorc is lacking. Sorcs have a heal they can use with one of the twilight morphs which works well for an off heal speck and does some damage as well. Burst heal serves an off heal speck much better than an AoE HoT.

It also seems odd you want to remove the magicka damage morph of lightning form and only leave a stamina damaging morph. This alone shows the though has lacked consideration for the game as a whole which is required for suggestions to have a solid basis.

Edit; and while yes, Zos is homogenizing many things I do not think they need our help as the above really seems to be homogenizing skills across classes.

you seem to have even less of an understanding of a sorcerer! I did not want to replace hurricane's form because it's STAMINA based which means it belongs to the identity of a STAMINA sorcerer. Why would i want to remove the ONE class ability that provides stamina sorcerers with a sense of identity?

I ignored the twilight matriarch heal because its a BURST heal. Adding a HoT (Heal over time) is the best way to bring it in line with templar healers, as they have both a BURST heal and a HoT.

BennyButton · July 2019

giantpixie wrote: »

Cinder storm needs a synergy maybe giving a small damage shield to stick with the dks shielding theme.

Sorcs I’m not sure about lightning form as you would always need to be stacked on your tank for them to benefit. But I agree sorc needs something

nah, the HoT would be primarily to make it fall in line with templar ritual, which you currently don't cast on tank as it is.

BennyButton · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

This has always been a synergy, unless you're talking about non-magicka healers...then i guess yeah.

Iskiab · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

This has always been a synergy, unless you're talking about non-magicka healers...then i guess yeah.

Yea, I just mean now it’s usable.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Before any elaborate discussions on healer balance, its important to understand that with how rigid ESO is designed, having certian class / role combos excel at certain encounters, while seems fine on paper just doesn't work in practice, simply because content in this game is not made to be so dynamic. Contrast this with older mmos such as ff11 where some jobs simply had no place in certain activities yet were mandatory in others which worked because of how lateral horizontal it was.

That being said, class roles in eso, any of the three, are inherently designed (as they should be) to function uniquely from one another. Meaning its not what the templar healer brings to the group, its how the templar acheives viable healing vs the other healers. Mechanical functionality is simply what needs to differentiate the healers. Any further depth attemped creates glaring issues and makes clear the rigidity of ESO end game design. This is the parity that ZOS refers so often. The SECOND one of the classes had exclusive access to an addtional synergy, or a critical support utility, every other healer is invalidated, as was the case for many years in ESO with templar healers until ZOD rightly began remedying the situation.

Dk healers need to take over from dk tanks in the group shielding department. Solve this by having fragmented shield scale more generously with magicka (obviously not annulment or ward ally levels) to provide a net positive return on group mitigation per GCD. They should player around a stricter resource managment thanks to battle roar and play proactive with mitigating damage with the occasional emergency heal. Synergy needs to be given to cinder storm.

NB healers unfortunately cant do inherently more damage than other healers as that sets an undesirable precedent. Major life steal and active healing through the damage they do and managing high risk vs high reward spells like healthy offering should be the name of their game. Synergy needs to be given to refreshing path.

Last time I checked my Templar actually did the most damage in PvE because shards was so strong.

They buffed debilitate with minor magic steal and now nerfed shards, I’m not sure how things stack up. Just hitting shards on mobs during any healing downtime is great dps.

Taleof2Cities · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

This has always been a synergy, unless you're talking about non-magicka healers...then i guess yeah.

Yea, I just mean now it’s usable.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Before any elaborate discussions on healer balance, its important to understand that with how rigid ESO is designed, having certian class / role combos excel at certain encounters, while seems fine on paper just doesn't work in practice, simply because content in this game is not made to be so dynamic. Contrast this with older mmos such as ff11 where some jobs simply had no place in certain activities yet were mandatory in others which worked because of how lateral horizontal it was.

That being said, class roles in eso, any of the three, are inherently designed (as they should be) to function uniquely from one another. Meaning its not what the templar healer brings to the group, its how the templar acheives viable healing vs the other healers. Mechanical functionality is simply what needs to differentiate the healers. Any further depth attemped creates glaring issues and makes clear the rigidity of ESO end game design. This is the parity that ZOS refers so often. The SECOND one of the classes had exclusive access to an addtional synergy, or a critical support utility, every other healer is invalidated, as was the case for many years in ESO with templar healers until ZOD rightly began remedying the situation.

Dk healers need to take over from dk tanks in the group shielding department. Solve this by having fragmented shield scale more generously with magicka (obviously not annulment or ward ally levels) to provide a net positive return on group mitigation per GCD. They should player around a stricter resource managment thanks to battle roar and play proactive with mitigating damage with the occasional emergency heal. Synergy needs to be given to cinder storm.

NB healers unfortunately cant do inherently more damage than other healers as that sets an undesirable precedent. Major life steal and active healing through the damage they do and managing high risk vs high reward spells like healthy offering should be the name of their game. Synergy needs to be given to refreshing path.

Last time I checked my Templar actually did the most damage in PvE because shards was so strong.

They buffed debilitate with minor magic steal and now nerfed shards, I’m not sure how things stack up. Just hitting shards on mobs during any healing downtime is great dps.

I think I've asked you this before, @Iskiab ... how much are you actually healing on all of your off-heals DPS characters?

Because the thread title is asking about how to improve healing gameplay on classes that don't have an innate heal in their skill lines.

The thread title is not about asking how much DPS you can pull while "healing" at the same time.

idk · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

idk wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

It does seem your understanding of the Sorc is lacking. Sorcs have a heal they can use with one of the twilight morphs which works well for an off heal speck and does some damage as well. Burst heal serves an off heal speck much better than an AoE HoT.

It also seems odd you want to remove the magicka damage morph of lightning form and only leave a stamina damaging morph. This alone shows the though has lacked consideration for the game as a whole which is required for suggestions to have a solid basis.

Edit; and while yes, Zos is homogenizing many things I do not think they need our help as the above really seems to be homogenizing skills across classes.

you seem to have even less of an understanding of a sorcerer! I did not want to replace hurricane's form because it's STAMINA based which means it belongs to the identity of a STAMINA sorcerer. Why would i want to remove the ONE class ability that provides stamina sorcerers with a sense of identity?

I ignored the twilight matriarch heal because its a BURST heal. Adding a HoT (Heal over time) is the best way to bring it in line with templar healers, as they have both a BURST heal and a HoT.

You comment does not reflect anything my knowledge of a sorcerer and is a pretty weak comment as such.

Further, you seem to have not read my first post in it's entirety even though you quoted it. You seem to repeat what I stated was poorly thought out as though it was good without offering anything to suggest real benefit outside of this is what you want. You are not looking beyond yourself which is why you are not seeing how bad this idea is.

And your last sentence exemplifies you are just trying to homogenize the classes. If you want the heals a templar has then play a templar but do not take away magicka sorc skills because you want to be able to heal like a templar.

Iskiab · July 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

This has always been a synergy, unless you're talking about non-magicka healers...then i guess yeah.

Yea, I just mean now it’s usable.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Before any elaborate discussions on healer balance, its important to understand that with how rigid ESO is designed, having certian class / role combos excel at certain encounters, while seems fine on paper just doesn't work in practice, simply because content in this game is not made to be so dynamic. Contrast this with older mmos such as ff11 where some jobs simply had no place in certain activities yet were mandatory in others which worked because of how lateral horizontal it was.

That being said, class roles in eso, any of the three, are inherently designed (as they should be) to function uniquely from one another. Meaning its not what the templar healer brings to the group, its how the templar acheives viable healing vs the other healers. Mechanical functionality is simply what needs to differentiate the healers. Any further depth attemped creates glaring issues and makes clear the rigidity of ESO end game design. This is the parity that ZOS refers so often. The SECOND one of the classes had exclusive access to an addtional synergy, or a critical support utility, every other healer is invalidated, as was the case for many years in ESO with templar healers until ZOD rightly began remedying the situation.

Dk healers need to take over from dk tanks in the group shielding department. Solve this by having fragmented shield scale more generously with magicka (obviously not annulment or ward ally levels) to provide a net positive return on group mitigation per GCD. They should player around a stricter resource managment thanks to battle roar and play proactive with mitigating damage with the occasional emergency heal. Synergy needs to be given to cinder storm.

NB healers unfortunately cant do inherently more damage than other healers as that sets an undesirable precedent. Major life steal and active healing through the damage they do and managing high risk vs high reward spells like healthy offering should be the name of their game. Synergy needs to be given to refreshing path.

Last time I checked my Templar actually did the most damage in PvE because shards was so strong.

They buffed debilitate with minor magic steal and now nerfed shards, I’m not sure how things stack up. Just hitting shards on mobs during any healing downtime is great dps.

I think I've asked you this before, @Iskiab ... how much are you actually healing on all of your off-heals DPS characters?

Because the thread title is asking about how to improve healing gameplay on classes that don't have an innate heal in their skill lines.

The thread title is not about asking how much DPS you can pull while "healing" at the same time.

Well in pve dungeons there’s no need to be a 100% healer. I’ve healed all vet dungeon, all trials and most of the trials in vet. In BGs I’m maybe 80% healing and 20% dps.

Basicly there isn’t that much healing required in 4 person content, even while adding full buffs/debuffs, so mixing in damage is important for group efficiency. People who full heal dungeons are the reason groups prefer 3 dps to 2 dps and 1 healer.

Full healing is only required in trials and large group cyrodiil. Otherwise damage is relevant, and was brought up by the post I quoted.

SirMewser · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

All healers had access to this ability and its synergy when it was a magicka skill. The health cost is just a health cost, instead of magicka now. The synergy is nothing new and it was always a % of the activator's health, so there is no new 'scaling' factor either.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

BennyButton · July 2019

idk wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

idk wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

It does seem your understanding of the Sorc is lacking. Sorcs have a heal they can use with one of the twilight morphs which works well for an off heal speck and does some damage as well. Burst heal serves an off heal speck much better than an AoE HoT.

It also seems odd you want to remove the magicka damage morph of lightning form and only leave a stamina damaging morph. This alone shows the though has lacked consideration for the game as a whole which is required for suggestions to have a solid basis.

Edit; and while yes, Zos is homogenizing many things I do not think they need our help as the above really seems to be homogenizing skills across classes.

you seem to have even less of an understanding of a sorcerer! I did not want to replace hurricane's form because it's STAMINA based which means it belongs to the identity of a STAMINA sorcerer. Why would i want to remove the ONE class ability that provides stamina sorcerers with a sense of identity?

I ignored the twilight matriarch heal because its a BURST heal. Adding a HoT (Heal over time) is the best way to bring it in line with templar healers, as they have both a BURST heal and a HoT.

You comment does not reflect anything my knowledge of a sorcerer and is a pretty weak comment as such.

Further, you seem to have not read my first post in it's entirety even though you quoted it. You seem to repeat what I stated was poorly thought out as though it was good without offering anything to suggest real benefit outside of this is what you want. You are not looking beyond yourself which is why you are not seeing how bad this idea is.

And your last sentence exemplifies you are just trying to homogenize the classes. If you want the heals a templar has then play a templar but do not take away magicka sorc skills because you want to be able to heal like a templar.

Yes, Zos is homogenizing the classes as it is so might as well try and get them to make something useful

Iskiab · July 2019

SirMewser wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

All healers had access to this ability and its synergy when it was a magicka skill. The health cost is just a health cost, instead of magicka now. The synergy is nothing new and it was always a % of the activator's health, so there is no new 'scaling' factor either.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I’m saying it’s now worth a slot. Health cost plus no cast time means I’ll be using it in pve.

stritzi · July 2019

Give Cinderstorm a synergy so that it centers around the activator and let DKs activite it by themselves, thous it would make DK a versatile frontline healer and give one of they few heal skills a dk has a spot. DK Healers are could be so much more fun

exeeter702 · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

This has always been a synergy, unless you're talking about non-magicka healers...then i guess yeah.

Yea, I just mean now it’s usable.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Before any elaborate discussions on healer balance, its important to understand that with how rigid ESO is designed, having certian class / role combos excel at certain encounters, while seems fine on paper just doesn't work in practice, simply because content in this game is not made to be so dynamic. Contrast this with older mmos such as ff11 where some jobs simply had no place in certain activities yet were mandatory in others which worked because of how lateral horizontal it was.

That being said, class roles in eso, any of the three, are inherently designed (as they should be) to function uniquely from one another. Meaning its not what the templar healer brings to the group, its how the templar acheives viable healing vs the other healers. Mechanical functionality is simply what needs to differentiate the healers. Any further depth attemped creates glaring issues and makes clear the rigidity of ESO end game design. This is the parity that ZOS refers so often. The SECOND one of the classes had exclusive access to an addtional synergy, or a critical support utility, every other healer is invalidated, as was the case for many years in ESO with templar healers until ZOD rightly began remedying the situation.

Dk healers need to take over from dk tanks in the group shielding department. Solve this by having fragmented shield scale more generously with magicka (obviously not annulment or ward ally levels) to provide a net positive return on group mitigation per GCD. They should player around a stricter resource managment thanks to battle roar and play proactive with mitigating damage with the occasional emergency heal. Synergy needs to be given to cinder storm.

NB healers unfortunately cant do inherently more damage than other healers as that sets an undesirable precedent. Major life steal and active healing through the damage they do and managing high risk vs high reward spells like healthy offering should be the name of their game. Synergy needs to be given to refreshing path.

Last time I checked my Templar actually did the most damage in PvE because shards was so strong.

They buffed debilitate with minor magic steal and now nerfed shards, I’m not sure how things stack up. Just hitting shards on mobs during any healing downtime is great dps.

Im not sure what point you are making here. I never implied otherwise. The comment on nb damage was in regards to a comment about NBs being able to dps while healing which for the longest time resulted in them having the highest dps throughput while matching other healers in HPS. Thus people often advocate for NBs to be the damage dealing healer. There is a reason ZOS nerfed funnel health down to 1 other target when it used to be 2 other targets, then forced NBs out of the benefit of dps while healing with both the more recent nerfs to path and funnel health. My suggestion was using active damage dealing to net them their viable healing is the right approach. They attempted this by making funnel health how it is on live and missed the mark completely.

Lapin_Logic · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

Dragonknight:
Cinder storm should add something else to the heal or increase the radius for it to be competitive with templar's ritual

Enjoy!!

"Why is My Sorc not a Templar like all the other Templars, ZOS Take the skills that other people use and that define the class and replace them all with clones of Templar ones but with different particle effects"

If you really want to play a Templar you could... Play a Templar? other than that there is the Healing Staff, a weapon with just One job.

HaemaMagus · July 2019

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

Dragonknight:
Cinder storm should add something else to the heal or increase the radius for it to be competitive with templar's ritual

Enjoy!!

"Why is My Sorc not a Templar like all the other Templars, ZOS Take the skills that other people use and that define the class and replace them all with clones of Templar ones but with different particle effects"

If you really want to play a Templar you could... Play a Templar? other than that there is the Healing Staff, a weapon with just One job.

I both agree and disagree with this. Yes if we want to play a Templar we should play a templar, but what the post is trying to do is give off meta healers their own niche. For example, warden is a stack healer, templar burst, nb HoT, DK, shield etc.

We aren't asking for X skill to be made in Y class' format; we're asking for new ways to heal that seem to fit the theme of the class. In a few other threads I've mentioned that its much easier to do with NB than the others because the theme is literally there in our faces and not being used. I've also said in those same threads that its harder for Sorc because they literally have 1 class heal and I can't comment on DK or Necro because I don't have either as a high level healer.

To give you a better idea lets look at these skills a NB healer has that are pain points:

Funnel Health
Sap Essence
Refreshing Path

Funnel Health is here because it is a worse Mutagen/Rapid. It ticks every 2 seconds (for 10s) and only heals 2 people at a time healing for half the damage dealt. In a trial its a horrible skill and thus not slotted. Here's how I would tweak it: It ticks every second (for 10s) healing 3 people at a time for half the damage dealt. Would this be enough for a slot in a trial? Honestly I don't know. Maybe the damage it does needs to be increased. Maybe it needs to scale off of something else, but at least its a start to putting it into a better spot.

Sap Essence is horrible but can have potential. Instead of a burst heal it could be an area HoT, upping the range from 8m to 15. Like funnel there would need to be more testing to see if it'd even work, but again its something.

Refreshing Path got a buff with an increase in its healing. Cool. Still doesn't address the pain point that its area is too small. This skill can go one of two ways. The first is that its area is increased so that its bigger than Combat Prayer. (Path is 17mx7 while Prayer is 20mx8m) A more unique idea I've seen is to have the HoT linger for 4s along with Major Expedition.

With these changes or more NB healer can find its role as a primarily HoT healer. Different from Templar and Warden and all to its own. This is what I believe the post is trying to achieve and honestly something I'm interested in seeing. Does that make sense? @Lapin_Logic

BennyButton · July 2019

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

Dragonknight:
Cinder storm should add something else to the heal or increase the radius for it to be competitive with templar's ritual

Enjoy!!

"Why is My Sorc not a Templar like all the other Templars, ZOS Take the skills that other people use and that define the class and replace them all with clones of Templar ones but with different particle effects"

If you really want to play a Templar you could... Play a Templar? other than that there is the Healing Staff, a weapon with just One job.

ignorance is fun - they buffed templar's ritual while taking away the only thing that could prove useful for sorc (orb/springs spam). I simply evened the playing field to ensure sorc healers were viable!

Thanks a bunch!

SirMewser · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing to add to the thread that I think you guys have missed. Blood alter or whatever that ability’s called costs health now to use instead of stamina or magicka. That means every healer class now has a non-class ability that gives a synergy if I read the changes right.

All healers had access to this ability and its synergy when it was a magicka skill. The health cost is just a health cost, instead of magicka now. The synergy is nothing new and it was always a % of the activator's health, so there is no new 'scaling' factor either.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I’m saying it’s now worth a slot. Health cost plus no cast time means I’ll be using it in pve.

Awesome.

I don't personally see any change to it, players always applied blood altar first before initiating combat (just like Elemental Drain, which is why they were both adjusted to not pull aggro awhile back ago).

Mobs are usually dead before the ability times out.

Healers don't really have a rotation so taking a second to cast while any HoT or safe window is up is a well earned cast anyways.

I just found the changes redundant.

Lapin_Logic · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

Dragonknight:
Cinder storm should add something else to the heal or increase the radius for it to be competitive with templar's ritual

Enjoy!!

"Why is My Sorc not a Templar like all the other Templars, ZOS Take the skills that other people use and that define the class and replace them all with clones of Templar ones but with different particle effects"

If you really want to play a Templar you could... Play a Templar? other than that there is the Healing Staff, a weapon with just One job.

ignorance is fun - they buffed templar's ritual while taking away the only thing that could prove useful for sorc (orb/springs spam). I simply evened the playing field to ensure sorc healers were viable!

Thanks a bunch!

CAN every class heal a vet trial? Yes
SHOULD every class be the best / Meta Healer for every Vet HM trial? No.

The Sorc shines in it's Twilight Bust heal... It's also one of the Sorcs highest damage single target DoTs, it means It is fantastic at 4 man content where you don't need a million cleanses if you can just burn through the mechanics.

Same with a Nightblade, Funnel health is a "Pain Point" for a dude wanting to replace mutagen (why would you remove a cleanse on a class without one?) when running his trial, But it is fantastic for a small scale or 2 v X PVP group who want to remain stealthy and mobile.

"Change a morph of Lightning form into a HoT and leave the stam morph" is a terrible idea when you consider a Pet sorc build is already double slotting the pets leaving precious bar space for other damage skills, is he supposed to give up even more for a resistance buff that now does no damage, he already has a HoT in Surge.
at the end of the day you would have no one to heal if all the classes sucked at DPS in order to make them all Meta niche Healers.

The game is fantastic and flexible, you can run any class and any armour, even a Heavy armour Stamina healer (Warden Biased Meta), but not all builds are going to be "The Meta" especially when Raid leads are balancing for Orlarime Blah blah blah meta set, meta set, meta set.

2 healers running Springs, Mutagen and Orbs are usually enough for Trials, any class heal is just gravy, templar clap heal is not often used, Ritual is a 2 second tick so that is helping no one so that leaves POTL (for the tank) and BOL and we already addressed the Sorc has a BOL equivalent, NB actually can put out more HoT heals than a Templar

CC @HaemaMagus

Iskiab · July 2019

HaemaMagus wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

Dragonknight:
Cinder storm should add something else to the heal or increase the radius for it to be competitive with templar's ritual

Enjoy!!

"Why is My Sorc not a Templar like all the other Templars, ZOS Take the skills that other people use and that define the class and replace them all with clones of Templar ones but with different particle effects"

If you really want to play a Templar you could... Play a Templar? other than that there is the Healing Staff, a weapon with just One job.

I both agree and disagree with this. Yes if we want to play a Templar we should play a templar, but what the post is trying to do is give off meta healers their own niche. For example, warden is a stack healer, templar burst, nb HoT, DK, shield etc.

We aren't asking for X skill to be made in Y class' format; we're asking for new ways to heal that seem to fit the theme of the class. In a few other threads I've mentioned that its much easier to do with NB than the others because the theme is literally there in our faces and not being used. I've also said in those same threads that its harder for Sorc because they literally have 1 class heal and I can't comment on DK or Necro because I don't have either as a high level healer.

To give you a better idea lets look at these skills a NB healer has that are pain points:
Funnel Health

Sap Essence

Refreshing Path

Funnel Health is here because it is a worse Mutagen/Rapid. It ticks every 2 seconds (for 10s) and only heals 2 people at a time healing for half the damage dealt. In a trial its a horrible skill and thus not slotted. Here's how I would tweak it: It ticks every second (for 10s) healing 3 people at a time for half the damage dealt. Would this be enough for a slot in a trial? Honestly I don't know. Maybe the damage it does needs to be increased. Maybe it needs to scale off of something else, but at least its a start to putting it into a better spot.

Sap Essence is horrible but can have potential. Instead of a burst heal it could be an area HoT, upping the range from 8m to 15. Like funnel there would need to be more testing to see if it'd even work, but again its something.

Refreshing Path got a buff with an increase in its healing. Cool. Still doesn't address the pain point that its area is too small. This skill can go one of two ways. The first is that its area is increased so that its bigger than Combat Prayer. (Path is 17mx7 while Prayer is 20mx8m) A more unique idea I've seen is to have the HoT linger for 4s along with Major Expedition.

With these changes or more NB healer can find its role as a primarily HoT healer. Different from Templar and Warden and all to its own. This is what I believe the post is trying to achieve and honestly something I'm interested in seeing. Does that make sense? @Lapin_Logic

Actually I was messing around on PTS and here’s my thoughts on each ability:

Refreshing Path: the healing was buffed but less then some other healing abilities. I might keep using it in pvp purely to get the shadow passives but will probably stop in dungeons. The healing value is relatively lower then other abilities now. If I were to heal a trial I likely would use it, just not in 4 person content.

Sap Essence: the only place I use this ability is 4 man dungeons. It’s great for trash packs, wouldn’t use it anywhere else

Funnel health: with other healing abilities being buffed it’s actually worse on PTS then live, so no change, I’ll never slot it

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

I will attempt to do your job ZoS and give some good ideas for adding class heals to each of the non-meta healing classes!

Sorcerer:
Lightning form - have one morph give you an AoE HoT (balance it with the current buffs), and the other be what hurricane is currently

Dragonknight:
Cinder storm should add something else to the heal or increase the radius for it to be competitive with templar's ritual

Enjoy!!

"Why is My Sorc not a Templar like all the other Templars, ZOS Take the skills that other people use and that define the class and replace them all with clones of Templar ones but with different particle effects"

If you really want to play a Templar you could... Play a Templar? other than that there is the Healing Staff, a weapon with just One job.

ignorance is fun - they buffed templar's ritual while taking away the only thing that could prove useful for sorc (orb/springs spam). I simply evened the playing field to ensure sorc healers were viable!

Thanks a bunch!

Same with a Nightblade, Funnel health is a "Pain Point" for a dude wanting to replace mutagen (why would you remove a cleanse on a class without one?) when running his trial, But it is fantastic for a small scale or 2 v X PVP group who want to remain stealthy and mobile.

Are you kidding me? I think funnel health is the worst ability in the game. Even in 2vX pvp I wouldn’t slot it. The ability is just terrible.

I’d rather hit mutagen twice and use a real damage ability, or do nothing that GCD to recovery magicka. I think spamming light attacks does more damage then light attack weaving funnel health.