Shuffle/Elude changes, and the implication on pulsing aoe skills.

glavius · July 2019

While a buff to medium armor maneuverability in general isn't a bad thing, I'm not sure I'm sold on this change. Effectively, it will make using pulsing aoe skills in pvp a bad thing.
For stam sorc especially, this is a huge nerf, since their trademark is pretty much hurricane.
It's also a bad thing for blade cloak, twisting path, wall of elements, caltrops, and probably several other skills I can't think off right now.

Yiko · July 2019

glavius wrote: »

While a buff to medium armor maneuverability in general isn't a bad thing, I'm not sure I'm sold on this change. Effectively, it will make using pulsing aoe skills in pvp a bad thing.
For stam sorc especially, this is a huge nerf, since their trademark is pretty much hurricane.
It's also a bad thing for blade cloak, twisting path, wall of elements, caltrops, and probably several other skills I can't think off right now.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483939/evasion-base-morph-of-shuffle-5-1-0-major-expedition-too-much/p1

Will also affect some armor sets. Maybe we'll see some changes tomorrow.

Vapirko · July 2019

Not only is it not a bad thing, it’s 100% needed and it’s not a nerf to stam sorc. If anything it’s a buff as they’ll now have increased mobility which goes great with hurricane. What do you mean by “pulse” anyway? You mean DoTs? People have gotten so lazy in PvP, way too used to just setting up wide areas of obscenely hard hitting abilities and letting the skills do the work while they hold block/spam heals.

Crixus8000 · July 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Not only is it not a bad thing, it’s 100% needed and it’s not a nerf to stam sorc. If anything it’s a buff as they’ll now have increased mobility which goes great with hurricane. What do you mean by “pulse” anyway? You mean DoTs? People have gotten so lazy in PvP, way too used to just setting up wide areas of obscenely hard hitting abilities and letting the skills do the work while they hold block/spam heals.

I fail to see it as a buff, it won't increase stamsorcs ability to kill or survive since if we chase for the kill we will be giving our enemy 30% more speed than us and they escape, and if we are trying to los to survive then we will still be giving our enemy 30% more speed to have an easier time catching us.

And if they are chasing and even using aoe of their own it would be best in these situations to not even cast aoe so you have just 30% more speeds than they do, but that isn't an option for stamsorc, so for us we either go slower than our enemy or just have our speed boost from the buff negated since we make our enemy move the same speed.

Plus now that all stam chars have major evasion it means hurricane deals less damage. But hey, it wouldn't be a patch without more indirect nerfs to stamsorc I guess.

glavius · July 2019

Exactly. Stam sorc will be providing 30% speed to people they chase and people they get chased by.

akray21 · July 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Not only is it not a bad thing, it’s 100% needed and it’s not a nerf to stam sorc. If anything it’s a buff as they’ll now have increased mobility which goes great with hurricane. What do you mean by “pulse” anyway? You mean DoTs? People have gotten so lazy in PvP, way too used to just setting up wide areas of obscenely hard hitting abilities and letting the skills do the work while they hold block/spam heals.

Stamsorc has a constant AoE around them ensuring that they will give major expedition to every medium armor opponent they fight. How is this a buff?

Vapirko · July 2019

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Not only is it not a bad thing, it’s 100% needed and it’s not a nerf to stam sorc. If anything it’s a buff as they’ll now have increased mobility which goes great with hurricane. What do you mean by “pulse” anyway? You mean DoTs? People have gotten so lazy in PvP, way too used to just setting up wide areas of obscenely hard hitting abilities and letting the skills do the work while they hold block/spam heals.

I fail to see it as a buff, it won't increase stamsorcs ability to kill or survive since if we chase for the kill we will be giving our enemy 30% more speed than us and they escape, and if we are trying to los to survive then we will still be giving our enemy 30% more speed to have an easier time catching us.

And if they are chasing and even using aoe of their own it would be best in these situations to not even cast aoe so you have just 30% more speeds than they do, but that isn't an option for stamsorc, so for us we either go slower than our enemy or just have our speed boost from the buff negated since we make our enemy move the same speed.

Plus now that all stam chars have major evasion it means hurricane deals less damage. But hey, it wouldn't be a patch without more indirect nerfs to stamsorc I guess.

So you’re referring specifically to the Major expedition granted by shuffle? Why not say that then? Because medium armor does need some more mobility. But also it will only be to medium armor users, I mean Templars get jabs reduced by major evasion and we survive. I think you can figure it out. Plus as a medium stam sorc you’ll have major expedition from hurricane and shuffle if it goes live so that could be a huge plus. Is it a huge nerf to stam sorcs, idk if I’d go that far. I think the benefits to medium changes will outweigh that small detail vs other medium users. Besides, chasing people down is never really a good thing. If people really want to run away from you that badly then who cares, they’ll probably be so bad that a bit of expedition won’t save them. So people will have to turn and fight you and be forced into hurricane anyway. And if you’re zerging someone down, well, more expedition to them.

akray21 · July 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Not only is it not a bad thing, it’s 100% needed and it’s not a nerf to stam sorc. If anything it’s a buff as they’ll now have increased mobility which goes great with hurricane. What do you mean by “pulse” anyway? You mean DoTs? People have gotten so lazy in PvP, way too used to just setting up wide areas of obscenely hard hitting abilities and letting the skills do the work while they hold block/spam heals.

I fail to see it as a buff, it won't increase stamsorcs ability to kill or survive since if we chase for the kill we will be giving our enemy 30% more speed than us and they escape, and if we are trying to los to survive then we will still be giving our enemy 30% more speed to have an easier time catching us.

And if they are chasing and even using aoe of their own it would be best in these situations to not even cast aoe so you have just 30% more speeds than they do, but that isn't an option for stamsorc, so for us we either go slower than our enemy or just have our speed boost from the buff negated since we make our enemy move the same speed.

Plus now that all stam chars have major evasion it means hurricane deals less damage. But hey, it wouldn't be a patch without more indirect nerfs to stamsorc I guess.

So you’re referring specifically to the Major expedition granted by shuffle? Why not say that then? Because medium armor does need some more mobility. But also it will only be to medium armor users, I mean Templars get jabs reduced by major evasion and we survive. I think you can figure it out. Plus as a medium stam sorc you’ll have major expedition from hurricane and shuffle if it goes live so that could be a huge plus. Is it a huge nerf to stam sorcs, idk if I’d go that far. I think the benefits to medium changes will outweigh that small detail vs other medium users. Besides, chasing people down is never really a good thing. If people really want to run away from you that badly then who cares, they’ll probably be so bad that a bit of expedition won’t save them. So people will have to turn and fight you and be forced into hurricane anyway. And if you’re zerging someone down, well, more expedition to them.

Hurricane will give medium armor opponents major expedition, not the stamsorc. The issue is being able to hit anyone with dizzy swing while they have major expedition and the stamsorc only has minor expedition from hurricane itself. This is a huge disadvantage for stamsorc, which would be obvious for anyone who has played the class.

Crixus8000 · July 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

So you’re referring specifically to the Major expedition granted by shuffle? Why not say that then? Because medium armor does need some more mobility. But also it will only be to medium armor users, I mean Templars get jabs reduced by major evasion and we survive. I think you can figure it out. Plus as a medium stam sorc you’ll have major expedition from hurricane and shuffle if it goes live so that could be a huge plus. Is it a huge nerf to stam sorcs, idk if I’d go that far. I think the benefits to medium changes will outweigh that small detail vs other medium users. Besides, chasing people down is never really a good thing. If people really want to run away from you that badly then who cares, they’ll probably be so bad that a bit of expedition won’t save them. So people will have to turn and fight you and be forced into hurricane anyway. And if you’re zerging someone down, well, more expedition to them.

I agree medium needs more mobility, I just don't agree with how they have handled it.

Because stamsorc is supposed to be the fast class yet with this change against any medium user we will be at a disadvantage. We give the people chasing us 30% speed or the people we are trying to chase 30% speed, either way it's a loss.

Rianai · July 2019

Just replace hurricane with immovable/chudan, class skills are so 2018 anyway

HackTheMinotaur · July 2019

2 second major expedition seems about right. That gives mobility to medium when you need it the most: while taking damage and being under pressure.

However, 7 seconds or whatever the new total will be with Elude is way too much. Most active skills are capped at 4 seconds of expedition and this is just a passive. I don’t know what they are thinking.

Lyar09 · July 2019

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

2 second major expedition seems about right. That gives mobility to medium when you need it the most: while taking damage and being under pressure.

However, 7 seconds or whatever the new total will be with Elude is way too much. Most active skills are capped at 4 seconds of expedition and this is just a passive. I don’t know what they are thinking.

30 seconds of major expedition against a Stamsorc. Still “seem about right”? This change has to go.

Aedrion · July 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Not only is it not a bad thing, it’s 100% needed and it’s not a nerf to stam sorc. If anything it’s a buff as they’ll now have increased mobility which goes great with hurricane. What do you mean by “pulse” anyway? You mean DoTs? People have gotten so lazy in PvP, way too used to just setting up wide areas of obscenely hard hitting abilities and letting the skills do the work while they hold block/spam heals.

Look at this. You didn't even understand what he meant, then proceed to claim the very thing he is mentioning as a problem, is going to be a buff.

A pulsing AoE is going to proc this with 100% uptime. This means anyone who gets near a stamsorc with this will get it permanently. This isn't a buff to stamsorc, this means everybody will escape from them.

And for the record, there's a lot of pulsing AoE, not only hurricane.

Vapirko wrote: »

If people really want to run away from you that badly then who cares, they’ll probably be so bad that a bit of expedition won’t save them.

Do you even PvP? People running away aren't just running away because they're bad. They might be trying to evade attacks until they're healed up or have some resources back, then they'll turn around and fight. In PvP, finishing a fight by killing somebody is huge. Running away is a tactic to ensure that doesn't happen.

This skill sounds nice but is going to cause huge problems unless it gets a nifty internal CD or doesn't proc from every type of AoE