New player, 5 months later and...

Nerhesi · July 2019

Afternoon all,

I'm going to try to qualify my experience here and why I think I'm going to be ending my subscription. I can say I had a lot of fun, but as someone that plays games primarily for pvp (but enjoys many/all the other aspects of this game), I find I'm trying to force myself to like the pvp - but failing. Perhaps Im doing something wrong and perhaps you can give me some advice if I am. Or perhaps we'll agree on things and come to the conclusion there is no easy fix for this due to the mechanics of ESO.

First, the background context: (skippable)

-I started playing 5 months ago.
-I have leveled and PvP'd extensively as a MagSorc, StamBlade, Magcro, StamSorc.
-I have accumulated in the range of 15 million AP.
-Most of this was gotten in Battleground, but I have also dueled a lot to help improve my skillset.

-I have always played games for their PvP element, but thoroughly enjoyed other aspects of the game (PvE, player homes, crafting, whatever).
-I have been playing pvp games, both action MMOs and more traditional MMOs for some time - since Everquest (AO, DaoC, City of Heroes, WoW, Neverwinter, etc).
-Played a lot of other PvP games across many genres and themes (from league of legends to planet side, to dead by daylight).
-I'd firmly place my skill level as very competent (decreasing with age - I jokingly blame the wife and kid ). Fond memories of never losing duels as a necro in EQ or a Cabalist in DaoC, to 2200+ rating in 3s in Wow (and not running mage or priest during those seasons either, mostly rogue lock shaman)...

Blah blah - yeah, I'm not going to be competing in eSports but I'd like to think I put in effort, and had good hand-eye coordination and reflexes. Ok enough background.

The observations:

-There is a higher level of homogeneity,despite the availability of more options in this game. Example, despite the sheer amount of end-game gear and skills, - more so than most MMOs, you end up with very similar skills or gear sets.
-This is of course nothing new, usually referred to as the "meta". But there doesn't seem to be a counter-meta even if it less effective against other builds.
-All builds that are successful in PvP must have good sustain, mobility, burst and heals. There is not other successful model... like an attrition build, or a sustained dps build. Everything is all about quick timely burst... oh you didnt get it? ok reset and try again.
-Attestation of the above is evident both in the commentary of cool 1vX or 1v1 or BGs available from many youtube streamers.
Evidence of the hyper-tuned builds is also available in the "dueling tournaments". I've never happened across a game with the sheer depth of dueling rules of what is and is not allowed.
-You gotta cancel. Like seriously - whether it is weaving in light attacks or cancelling defensively with block/roll/weapon swap. A big thing that wasn't intended by design is absolutely critical for high end play.

Conclusions:
-As you do better in BGs, or run into more skilled players in Cyrodil, or duel those folks that enjoy dueling - you're going to need to run meta. Again - this no surprise, but the lack of creativity and counter meta (even if it is crap in most other situations), just kinda dulls the environment.
-This is just me, but the lack of immersion with bar-swapping. Especially when as magsorc you're swapping to S&B or so (without a single skill being used)- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I do it too... and sometimes maybe to be cool (but slightly less effective), I'll bar swap to a frost staff so it looks better!
-The Sustain and use a burst-window game mechanic leaves no alternate approaches to "killing" your target.

All this leads to me not being as interested in PvP . Am I being particularly unfair to ESO? I dont think so... but does anyone else have the same sort of fatigue? Is it soon for me to arrive at this fatigue? Am I missing some cool totally non-meta builds that counter meta but suck against most other genericish builds? Is there a mag-sorc dot build out there? Is there a competitive soul-assault build for magsorc or magnb?

Thanks for your responses ahead of time

Waffennacht · July 2019

The "play as you want" means a class has access to all variable abilities - making it actually less diverse than those games that have different sub categories and inaccessibility to everything.

ESO essentially gives you the freedom to fail in anyway you want.

I do agree with your analysis. However I just don't see any other MMO PvP comparing in speed/reactivity

Davadin · July 2019

how much time u spent in CP Cyrodiil?

Iskiab · July 2019

You’re doing duels and solo queuing BGs, they tend to be more solo focused in starter BGs. Basicly the ‘tank meta’ complaints you see in the forums are from people having difficulty adjusting from the playstyle you’ve been doing to higher MMR BGs where it’s about longer games where people don’t eat bursted in 3 seconds.

You might like cyrodiil in a pvp guild. There are lots offense different size groups; think large scale 24+, medium scale similar to DAoC 12 mans, and even smaller.

What it sounds like you’re bored of is the solo dueling aspect of pvp. I’d try some cyrodiil or premade BGs, if you stick it out past the middle tiers players are more specialized and less cookie cutter, it gets more interesting. Some things will always be more powerful then others, but I like the group comps and specialized roles in larger scale pvp.

If solo’s your thing I’d try cyrodiil 1vX. It’s not my thing but it looks interesting. It revolves around building a little tankier, using line of sight, and taking advantage of cookie cutter specs that lack sustain and self healing. The most important thing for this playstyle is you have to be good at video editing and make videos afterwards to brag, that’s half the fun.

Wing · July 2019

I can agree.

in reality there are dozens upon dozens of sets in this game, dozens of monster helms, hundreds of options.

in actuality everyone is running the same couple sets, the same skills, the same builds.

I have been predominantly a CP player (but do play BG's) but I find myself terribly bored as that has become more and more a stack person meta.

Iskiab · July 2019

Well in cyrodiil I mix it up depending on what I’m doing, but cycle between 6 different sets.

In BGs I try different stuff out... just because. Most of the limitations in what sets you can run is because there’s no sustain monster sets, it limits builds to always running a sustain body set, hopefully they add one soon. Every build is sustain body, then mixing damage or defense in the other slots... or skipping a sustain set entirely.

MaxJrFTW · July 2019

I agree with everything. This is exactly how i felt when i had just played a few months. Although by the time i touched pvp i had already played the game for like 5 or 6 months. I was going at a very slow pace to say the least. It still bothers me how there's hundreds of sets and 80% of them are useless.

Anyways, eventually you realize this is what ESO is. The cards have been dealt.

Nerhesi · July 2019

And just like that... the patch drops.

Well.. I guess we will see if things change or just a different gear/skill combo for the same old cc/burst window. I'm at the very least, trying to convince myself that there is a case to be made for single target magicka-dot builds now (outside of magblade)

WeylandLabs · July 2019

Nerhesi wrote: »

Afternoon all,

I'm going to try to qualify my experience here and why I think I'm going to be ending my subscription. I can say I had a lot of fun, but as someone that plays games primarily for pvp (but enjoys many/all the other aspects of this game), I find I'm trying to force myself to like the pvp - but failing. Perhaps Im doing something wrong and perhaps you can give me some advice if I am. Or perhaps we'll agree on things and come to the conclusion there is no easy fix for this due to the mechanics of ESO.

First, the background context: (skippable)

-I started playing 5 months ago.
-I have leveled and PvP'd extensively as a MagSorc, StamBlade, Magcro, StamSorc.
-I have accumulated in the range of 15 million AP.
-Most of this was gotten in Battleground, but I have also dueled a lot to help improve my skillset.

-I have always played games for their PvP element, but thoroughly enjoyed other aspects of the game (PvE, player homes, crafting, whatever).
-I have been playing pvp games, both action MMOs and more traditional MMOs for some time - since Everquest (AO, DaoC, City of Heroes, WoW, Neverwinter, etc).
-Played a lot of other PvP games across many genres and themes (from league of legends to planet side, to dead by daylight).
-I'd firmly place my skill level as very competent (decreasing with age - I jokingly blame the wife and kid ). Fond memories of never losing duels as a necro in EQ or a Cabalist in DaoC, to 2200+ rating in 3s in Wow (and not running mage or priest during those seasons either, mostly rogue lock shaman)...

Blah blah - yeah, I'm not going to be competing in eSports but I'd like to think I put in effort, and had good hand-eye coordination and reflexes. Ok enough background.

The observations:

-There is a higher level of homogeneity,despite the availability of more options in this game. Example, despite the sheer amount of end-game gear and skills, - more so than most MMOs, you end up with very similar skills or gear sets.
-This is of course nothing new, usually referred to as the "meta". But there doesn't seem to be a counter-meta even if it less effective against other builds.
-All builds that are successful in PvP must have good sustain, mobility, burst and heals. There is not other successful model... like an attrition build, or a sustained dps build. Everything is all about quick timely burst... oh you didnt get it? ok reset and try again.
-Attestation of the above is evident both in the commentary of cool 1vX or 1v1 or BGs available from many youtube streamers.
Evidence of the hyper-tuned builds is also available in the "dueling tournaments". I've never happened across a game with the sheer depth of dueling rules of what is and is not allowed.
-You gotta cancel. Like seriously - whether it is weaving in light attacks or cancelling defensively with block/roll/weapon swap. A big thing that wasn't intended by design is absolutely critical for high end play.

Conclusions:
-As you do better in BGs, or run into more skilled players in Cyrodil, or duel those folks that enjoy dueling - you're going to need to run meta. Again - this no surprise, but the lack of creativity and counter meta (even if it is crap in most other situations), just kinda dulls the environment.
-This is just me, but the lack of immersion with bar-swapping. Especially when as magsorc you're swapping to S&B or so (without a single skill being used)- leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I do it too... and sometimes maybe to be cool (but slightly less effective), I'll bar swap to a frost staff so it looks better!
-The Sustain and use a burst-window game mechanic leaves no alternate approaches to "killing" your target.

All this leads to me not being as interested in PvP . Am I being particularly unfair to ESO? I dont think so... but does anyone else have the same sort of fatigue? Is it soon for me to arrive at this fatigue? Am I missing some cool totally non-meta builds that counter meta but suck against most other genericish builds? Is there a mag-sorc dot build out there? Is there a competitive soul-assault build for magsorc or magnb?

Thanks for your responses ahead of time

Omg this is the most accurate post i have ever read on the forums in 3 years by a new player. 💯👍

JumpmanLane · July 2019

Op you’re doing it wrong. NOBODY is giving out really well thought-out theorycrafted builds. ZOS their damn selves don’t even know what the meta is In their own game. The SKILL ADVISER is THEIR idea of a good build. Lol.

5 months of dueling and BGS ain’t gonna cut it. I’ll give you a for instance: one of the best sets in the game right now is also one of the dirt cheapest in the traders. It’s not because no one runs it. Many do. But NONODY is screaming from the rooftops EVERYBODY should run it.

(Incidentally, I’m not mentioning it’s name because I’m not giving ZOS any reason to nerf MORE quality skills, gear, and etc. I’m not being complicit in THAT).

Bottom line, until you can theorycraft your own build suited to your own playstyle you’re doing it wrong. THAT is precisely what you are doing wrong. Even using the word “Meta” while referencing your build...you’re doing it wrong.

Thinking “the meta” is the only way to play...you’re doing it wrong. You should be running something BETTER than meta which you thought up yourself. And THEN don’t tell nobody but your closest pals what you run. THEN, you’ll be doing it right.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Thinking “the meta” is the only way to play...you’re doing it wrong.

This. I play a mix of max level battleground builds, none of which are meta. Last patch, I ran a magplar with 200% critical damage bonus and an 11-12k Dark Flare tooltip in no-CP. 700 magicka regen, 9k physical resistance. I beat many better, tanky players with patience and timing, and even knocked 36 kills one match. It was an exciting, fast-paced playstyle that succeeded more than it failed (and ... it definitely did fail). But it was fun!

Now I'm running a disgusting heavy attack gank magDK build with a 9k Fiery Rage tooltip. I've also had fun with support magnec, bowgank stamden, and a bouncy heavy armor petsorc argonian healer.

BG's have so many potential builds, and the classes are actually all very different if you find ways to build to their strengths. I recommend trying to build low resistance, low regen glass cannon builds if you want something different and satisfying.

But, ESO PvP could also just not be your thing.

ChunkyCat · July 2019

People who do well are the people who have figured out what gear/skill combinations work most efficiently. The longer you play, the easier it gets to see those combinations that work.

Not all sets were created equal.

Insco851 · July 2019

My only question, did you learn how to animation cancel?

JamilaRaj · July 2019

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Thinking “the meta” is the only way to play...you’re doing it wrong.

This. I play a mix of max level battleground builds, none of which are meta. Last patch, I ran a magplar with 200% critical damage bonus and an 11-12k Dark Flare tooltip in no-CP. 700 magicka regen, 9k physical resistance. I beat many better, tanky players with patience and timing, and even knocked 36 kills one match. It was an exciting, fast-paced playstyle that succeeded more than it failed (and ... it definitely did fail). But it was fun!

Now I'm running a disgusting heavy attack gank magDK build with a 9k Fiery Rage tooltip. I've also had fun with support magnec, bowgank stamden, and a bouncy heavy armor petsorc argonian healer.

BG's have so many potential builds, and the classes are actually all very different if you find ways to build to their strengths. I recommend trying to build low resistance, low regen glass cannon builds if you want something different and satisfying.

But, ESO PvP could also just not be your thing.

But that rather corroborates what OP said about prevalence of "good sustain, mobility, burst and heals" builds. 11-12K damage sounds like a high number (good burst - check), which implies heals have high numbers too (good heals - check), and 9K resistance as well as that you had some success imply high mobility, because without it you would vaporize on touch and enemies would simply walk away from your damage (good mobility - check). That leaves sustain, which, at 700 magicka, seems poor, but because skill cost does not increase with damage/heal number, per unit of magicka your skills are very efficient, therefore...good sustain - check.

Nerhesi · July 2019

Insco851 wrote: »

My only question, did you learn how to animation cancel?

Oh of course! Learned immediately upon playing, but adopted it into muscle memory I'd say 3 months in. I dont think I press anything without cancelling now - even in the obligatory daily pve dungeon

It's huge in duels especially, and something people dont like to admit, is how mindless block/dodge cancelling is massive mitigation. You're basically covering 25-50% of your defensive time with around 80% mitigation before resists (frost staff or S&B). This is massive.

Oh - and I think it is an absolutely terrible mechanic that I wish would disappear but its here to stay without an engine overhaul. Kind of like the interrupt timer in DAOC if anyone remembers that garbage (based on the weapon cooldown you were interrupted with)

Nerhesi · July 2019

JamilaRaj wrote: »

But that rather corroborates what OP said about prevalence of "good sustain, mobility, burst and heals" builds. 11-12K damage sounds like a high number (good burst -check), which implies heals have higher numbers too (good heals - check), and 9K resistance as well as that you had some succes imply high mobility, because without it you would vaporize on touch and enemies would simply walk away from your damage (good mobility - check). That leaves sustain, which, at 700 magicka, seems poor, but because skill cost does not increase with damage/heal number, per unit of magicka your skills are very efficient, therefore...good sustain - check.

Yeah exactly - those two responses dont actually disagree with me. Well... one of them reads like the Nigerian prince with the special magic potion inheritance that is just waiting for you to discover! If only you just thought outside of the box... and sniff the coca-yeena!

Really now. Come on guys.

NBrookus · July 2019

You aren't wrong. This isn't an RPS game where a meta for one thing has an equally strong counter build. When the goal is that every class and spec can do every roll, there's just no way to have a large number of truly unique playstyles.

There are people that can and do run off-meta sets open world with success, when they can choose to use a particular terrain or engagement style or whatever to optimize the build. (Or sometimes with abysmal failure; my UESP is littered with old "this might be cool" builds.)

Duels are a whole different kind of PVP. Dueling specs are usually good for just that -- dueling one player.

If duels and BGs are boring you, try open world. Try a small guild or a large one or all of the above. See if something suits you better.

Durham · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

You’re doing duels and solo queuing BGs, they tend to be more solo focused in starter BGs. Basicly the ‘tank meta’ complaints you see in the forums are from people having difficulty adjusting from the playstyle you’ve been doing to higher MMR BGs where it’s about longer games where people don’t eat bursted in 3 seconds.

You might like cyrodiil in a pvp guild. There are lots offense different size groups; think large scale 24+, medium scale similar to DAoC 12 mans, and even smaller.

What it sounds like you’re bored of is the solo dueling aspect of pvp. I’d try some cyrodiil or premade BGs, if you stick it out past the middle tiers players are more specialized and less cookie cutter, it gets more interesting. Some things will always be more powerful then others, but I like the group comps and specialized roles in larger scale pvp.

If solo’s your thing I’d try cyrodiil 1vX. It’s not my thing but it looks interesting. It revolves around building a little tankier, using line of sight, and taking advantage of cookie cutter specs that lack sustain and self healing. The most important thing for this playstyle is you have to be good at video editing and make videos afterwards to brag, that’s half the fun.

I agree with but DoAc was 8 man groups not 12. DAoC was squad oriented style that could smack a zerg. Much harder to do in this game due the amount of stupidly easy healing, which also adds to latency which also takes a ton skill or strategy out.

GeorgeBlack · July 2019

I agree 100%
Nothing more to add. If you find a good mmorpg with nice PvP and graphics please send me a whisper. I see nothing in the horizon until AoC comes out.

I have been playing ESO since July 2015 because it is the best package out there right now, even tho PvP is so bad.

burglar · July 2019

Durham wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

You’re doing duels and solo queuing BGs, they tend to be more solo focused in starter BGs. Basicly the ‘tank meta’ complaints you see in the forums are from people having difficulty adjusting from the playstyle you’ve been doing to higher MMR BGs where it’s about longer games where people don’t eat bursted in 3 seconds.

You might like cyrodiil in a pvp guild. There are lots offense different size groups; think large scale 24+, medium scale similar to DAoC 12 mans, and even smaller.

What it sounds like you’re bored of is the solo dueling aspect of pvp. I’d try some cyrodiil or premade BGs, if you stick it out past the middle tiers players are more specialized and less cookie cutter, it gets more interesting. Some things will always be more powerful then others, but I like the group comps and specialized roles in larger scale pvp.

If solo’s your thing I’d try cyrodiil 1vX. It’s not my thing but it looks interesting. It revolves around building a little tankier, using line of sight, and taking advantage of cookie cutter specs that lack sustain and self healing. The most important thing for this playstyle is you have to be good at video editing and make videos afterwards to brag, that’s half the fun.

I agree with but DoAc was 8 man groups not 12. DAoC was squad oriented style that could smack a zerg. Much harder to do in this game due the amount of stupidly easy healing, which also adds to latency which also takes a ton skill or strategy out.

There was something very satisfying about mezzing an entire zerg, I mean, everything was under control. Being on the receiving end sucked, especially if they didn't AoE everyone and just went around offing people one by one. In light of that, I'm so glad that they have CC break in this game.

On the topic of DAoC, Matt Firor and Mark Jacobs sold Mythic Entertainment and left shortly after to do other things, namely, make PvP games. Firor went to work on ESO as President of ZOS, and Mark Jacobs went on to make Camelot Unchained, which I'm really looking forward to. It's a tri-faction PVP game with sieges like you find in ESO, except there's no PvE, with the purpose of the game (from what I understood) is to conquer as much as possible. It seemed like a combination of Age of Empires and DAoC combined, because players will build and sack cities that are built by players. It should be really awesome.

Nerhesi · July 2019

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

You’re doing duels and solo queuing BGs, they tend to be more solo focused in starter BGs. Basicly the ‘tank meta’ complaints you see in the forums are from people having difficulty adjusting from the playstyle you’ve been doing to higher MMR BGs where it’s about longer games where people don’t eat bursted in 3 seconds.

You might like cyrodiil in a pvp guild. There are lots offense different size groups; think large scale 24+, medium scale similar to DAoC 12 mans, and even smaller.

What it sounds like you’re bored of is the solo dueling aspect of pvp. I’d try some cyrodiil or premade BGs, if you stick it out past the middle tiers players are more specialized and less cookie cutter, it gets more interesting. Some things will always be more powerful then others, but I like the group comps and specialized roles in larger scale pvp.

If solo’s your thing I’d try cyrodiil 1vX. It’s not my thing but it looks interesting. It revolves around building a little tankier, using line of sight, and taking advantage of cookie cutter specs that lack sustain and self healing. The most important thing for this playstyle is you have to be good at video editing and make videos afterwards to brag, that’s half the fun.

I agree with but DoAc was 8 man groups not 12. DAoC was squad oriented style that could smack a zerg. Much harder to do in this game due the amount of stupidly easy healing, which also adds to latency which also takes a ton skill or strategy out.

There was something very satisfying about mezzing an entire zerg, I mean, everything was under control. Being on the receiving end sucked, especially if they didn't AoE everyone and just went around offing people one by one. In light of that, I'm so glad that they have CC break in this game.

On the topic of DAoC, Matt Firor and Mark Jacobs sold Mythic Entertainment and left shortly after to do other things, namely, make PvP games. Firor went to work on ESO as President of ZOS, and Mark Jacobs went on to make Camelot Unchained, which I'm really looking forward to. It's a tri-faction PVP game with sieges like you find in ESO, except there's no PvE, with the purpose of the game (from what I understood) is to conquer as much as possible. It seemed like a combination of Age of Empires and DAoC combined, because players will build and sack cities that are built by players. It should be really awesome.

I hope so - the theme of the current classes there is less attractive than the classes in DaoC (totally subjective of course).

DaoC was thematically great but mechanically atrocious - and successful due to the lack of competition at the time. You had a game with interrupt mechanics, and TTK/TTD that was generally under 5 seconds, or 15 seconds even if both classes could heal.

BUT - the classes had amazing flavour, the theme was great, the RvR concept was good. Basically everything was great except the "MATHS!". This is probably why I am very much in favour of the reason behind the ZoS patch - establishing some mathematical guidelines... so you dont end up with DOUBLEFROSTZZZ!!! or early Shadowblade 2-hander kidney shots.

Oh wow - those were some good times though