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Argonians need a dps skill.
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Koronach✭✭✭✭✭They can't even get our lore right in ESO itself when it comes to passives.Edited by Koronach on July 12, 2019 11:01AM4 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
What dps passive do we have other than that expensive potion one? Still working hard on that last forum star huh?0 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
- why not?
- it would fit with lore to give them max stam as their whole thing is being adaptable so being a jack of all trades makes sense
- there's probably a reason no one plays them
- apparently "being adaptable" and "surviving in guerilla warfare" translates to a barely noticable healing bonus?????skingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
3 -
Shardan4968✭✭✭✭✭
✭
"Unusual for Saxhleel to take up magic", this dude said it so it must be true, more stam passives pls.PC/EU1 -
Vildebill✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
Of course skill and experience is still times more effective then race or class. But this has nothing to do with balance, lore, "play the way you want" etc.
Here guys are completing vMoL with no-CP. Does it means that CP distribution can be ditched any time for any role any content?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2nDmk3pkzA
I think it has all to do with balance since the racials are very balanced today, more than they ever were. Of course some minor tweaking on some races, like argonians, would be nice, especially since healing done is a crappy stat compared to spell damage. But they are still very viable, and races doesn't make that much of a difference as people want to make it sound like.
That video is a perfect example of that player skill means so much more than race, gear and CP will ever do. Not that those factors don't matter, but like I said before, not by a long shot compared to player skill.
So my argument still stands, any race can do any role, and complete all content in the game.
Yes, but still it's unfair situation that argonians have weakest pack of passives for PVE roles (with exception of progression level tanking) and are good for PVP, while orcs are BiS dps, BiS high end tank (source - Liofa), and are good for PVP too.
Bretons are like orcs with exception that they share BiS for magicka dps with altmers and to certain extent with dunmers. Meanwhile bretons are BiS for magicka PVP (more viable then altmers/dunmers), BiS healers and considerable tanks (that load of magicka sustain is not a joke, as well as nice resistance bonus).
So we have:
- 2 races which can do everything effectively
- altmers with niche PVP off-resource regen, which is useless even for stamina PVE high elves
- 2 "hybrids" (jack of all trades, best for nothing, hybrids like viable PVE group role doesn't exist)
- 2 pigeon holed tank races
- redguards who still believe they are BiS for sustain (though in practice they are not, orc with lava foot soup has better sustain)
- 2 PVP niche races.
Sorry, I can't call this situation "racials are very balanced today", especially from PVE-side where vast majority spent 90% of their game time.
Yeah like I said, I understand what you mean. Argonians could use a buff. But they aren't as bad for PvE as people for some reason want it to be. They are great tanks with their unique resource system, and that same passive is super versatile for PvP. Not as good as it once was (when it was very OP), but still. It's hard to argue about what race are good in PvP though since personal preference and/or playstyle makes the demands, rather than raw numbers, like in PvE.
And your race comparison above is a little narrow minded. It might be true in a very specific scenario, like humping the dummy to get the highest number, but I've seen so many examples of people thinking outside the box and are hitting almost as high as the YouTube meta everyone's chasing. And that particular build might be better for you personally if you play in a certain way.
Examples:
High crit builds specializing in burst: Khajiit might be the best way to go.
Stamina builds almost exclusively using weapon line skills (like StamSorc), Redguard might overperform Orc.
These two races aren't considered BiS by any means, yet they can perform as good. Open up your mind and don't consider dummy humping in Siroria, Zaan and Spell Strategist the only way to measure how good a race is (and I'm not saying that you do exactly that, but I think you get my point)
. EU PC1 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
- why not?
- it would fit with lore to give them max stam as their whole thing is being adaptable so being a jack of all trades makes sense
- there's probably a reason no one plays them
- apparently "being adaptable" and "surviving in guerilla warfare" translates to a barely noticable healing bonus?????
Don't forget Argonians have been a mag/stam race since Arena. We were never good at tanking, and it wasn't till Skyrim when they dumbed the hell out of the series and remoived a lot of stuff that we got anything in healing. Our main stats have always been Int, Agi, and Speed. We had bonuses in Mysticism and Illusion I don't see tank in any of those stats, sure looks like the stats of a poison making assassin skilled in Alchemy though.Edited by Koronach on July 12, 2019 11:19AM2 -
LuxLunae✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »It’s so weird seeing their focus be healing or nit as good tank as nord. I just want to plat a dps argonian Nightblade or something more lore accurate than tank or healer. It’s so strange they have no niche.
Adapt... zos took away redguard stamina, stamina recov, stamina %....I adapted... you should too..
By switching to orc?
I stayed redguard...I made a build that complement what changed on redguard...for my playstyle...it works....it only works for me though....
Because of that the new patch didn't do anything to my build....in fact I might have slightly gotten stronger...all because i didnt chase the meta...0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
- why not?
- it would fit with lore to give them max stam as their whole thing is being adaptable so being a jack of all trades makes sense
- there's probably a reason no one plays them
- apparently "being adaptable" and "surviving in guerilla warfare" translates to a barely noticable healing bonus?????
Don't forget Argonians have been a mag/stam race since Arena. We were never good at tanking, and it wasn't till Skyrim when they dumbed the hell out of the series and remoived a lot of stuff that we got anything in healing. Our main stats have always been Int, Agi, and Speed. We had bonuses in Mysticism and Illusion I don't see tank in any of those stats, sure looks like the stats of a poison making assassin skilled in Alchemy though.
Well, argonians don't have plain tanking passives. It's all about ZOS's specific limitations put on tanking, which makes argonians so good in sustain tight permablock scenarios. If everything is going as planned and without much permablocking, I don't see much point at argonian tank. So far at this scenarios it's better for tank to go for off-dpsing and so "everything is orc" is again best choice.MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
Of course skill and experience is still times more effective then race or class. But this has nothing to do with balance, lore, "play the way you want" etc.
Here guys are completing vMoL with no-CP. Does it means that CP distribution can be ditched any time for any role any content?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2nDmk3pkzA
I think it has all to do with balance since the racials are very balanced today, more than they ever were. Of course some minor tweaking on some races, like argonians, would be nice, especially since healing done is a crappy stat compared to spell damage. But they are still very viable, and races doesn't make that much of a difference as people want to make it sound like.
That video is a perfect example of that player skill means so much more than race, gear and CP will ever do. Not that those factors don't matter, but like I said before, not by a long shot compared to player skill.
So my argument still stands, any race can do any role, and complete all content in the game.
Yes, but still it's unfair situation that argonians have weakest pack of passives for PVE roles (with exception of progression level tanking) and are good for PVP, while orcs are BiS dps, BiS high end tank (source - Liofa), and are good for PVP too.
Bretons are like orcs with exception that they share BiS for magicka dps with altmers and to certain extent with dunmers. Meanwhile bretons are BiS for magicka PVP (more viable then altmers/dunmers), BiS healers and considerable tanks (that load of magicka sustain is not a joke, as well as nice resistance bonus).
So we have:
- 2 races which can do everything effectively
- altmers with niche PVP off-resource regen, which is useless even for stamina PVE high elves
- 2 "hybrids" (jack of all trades, best for nothing, hybrids like viable PVE group role doesn't exist)
- 2 pigeon holed tank races
- redguards who still believe they are BiS for sustain (though in practice they are not, orc with lava foot soup has better sustain)
- 2 PVP niche races.
Sorry, I can't call this situation "racials are very balanced today", especially from PVE-side where vast majority spent 90% of their game time.
Examples:
High crit builds specializing in burst: Khajiit might be the best way to go.
Stamina builds almost exclusively using weapon line skills (like StamSorc), Redguard might overperform Orc.
These two races aren't considered BiS by any means, yet they can perform as good. Open up your mind and don't consider dummy humping in Siroria, Zaan and Spell Strategist the only way to measure how good a race is (and I'm not saying that you do exactly that, but I think you get my point).
Actually this is a tip for ZOS balancing, they should've differentiate stam races by lore-friendly builds, for example orc best with S&B, nord with 2H, bosmer with bow, redguard with DW. It'll be ok if redguard became BiS dps with this, but still other races will have their niches being better with "their" weapons.. but now it's orc, orc, orc. Khajiit looks like stat dense enough in comparison to orc, but in practice you know results - khajiits were behind orcs and dunmers even on nightblades in susmitds's tests.
So yes, even from that graph it's clear that top skilled argonian stamblade will do double dps of average orc BiS Joe from pugs. But this doesn't change fact that we have 2 races from same alliance who have perfectly synergizied passives for any role and everybody else with flaws and limitations and basically no single tank race from AD for example, and no BiS level healer from Pact. Motivation to sale adventurer pack, eh?
2 -
Vildebill✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
- why not?
- it would fit with lore to give them max stam as their whole thing is being adaptable so being a jack of all trades makes sense
- there's probably a reason no one plays them
- apparently "being adaptable" and "surviving in guerilla warfare" translates to a barely noticable healing bonus?????
Don't forget Argonians have been a mag/stam race since Arena. We were never good at tanking, and it wasn't till Skyrim when they dumbed the hell out of the series and remoived a lot of stuff that we got anything in healing. Our main stats have always been Int, Agi, and Speed. We had bonuses in Mysticism and Illusion I don't see tank in any of those stats, sure looks like the stats of a poison making assassin skilled in Alchemy though.
Well, argonians don't have plain tanking passives. It's all about ZOS's specific limitations put on tanking, which makes argonians so good in sustain tight permablock scenarios. If everything is going as planned and without much permablocking, I don't see much point at argonian tank. So far at this scenarios it's better for tank to go for off-dpsing and so "everything is orc" is again best choice.MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
Of course skill and experience is still times more effective then race or class. But this has nothing to do with balance, lore, "play the way you want" etc.
Here guys are completing vMoL with no-CP. Does it means that CP distribution can be ditched any time for any role any content?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2nDmk3pkzA
I think it has all to do with balance since the racials are very balanced today, more than they ever were. Of course some minor tweaking on some races, like argonians, would be nice, especially since healing done is a crappy stat compared to spell damage. But they are still very viable, and races doesn't make that much of a difference as people want to make it sound like.
That video is a perfect example of that player skill means so much more than race, gear and CP will ever do. Not that those factors don't matter, but like I said before, not by a long shot compared to player skill.
So my argument still stands, any race can do any role, and complete all content in the game.
Yes, but still it's unfair situation that argonians have weakest pack of passives for PVE roles (with exception of progression level tanking) and are good for PVP, while orcs are BiS dps, BiS high end tank (source - Liofa), and are good for PVP too.
Bretons are like orcs with exception that they share BiS for magicka dps with altmers and to certain extent with dunmers. Meanwhile bretons are BiS for magicka PVP (more viable then altmers/dunmers), BiS healers and considerable tanks (that load of magicka sustain is not a joke, as well as nice resistance bonus).
So we have:
- 2 races which can do everything effectively
- altmers with niche PVP off-resource regen, which is useless even for stamina PVE high elves
- 2 "hybrids" (jack of all trades, best for nothing, hybrids like viable PVE group role doesn't exist)
- 2 pigeon holed tank races
- redguards who still believe they are BiS for sustain (though in practice they are not, orc with lava foot soup has better sustain)
- 2 PVP niche races.
Sorry, I can't call this situation "racials are very balanced today", especially from PVE-side where vast majority spent 90% of their game time.
Examples:
High crit builds specializing in burst: Khajiit might be the best way to go.
Stamina builds almost exclusively using weapon line skills (like StamSorc), Redguard might overperform Orc.
These two races aren't considered BiS by any means, yet they can perform as good. Open up your mind and don't consider dummy humping in Siroria, Zaan and Spell Strategist the only way to measure how good a race is (and I'm not saying that you do exactly that, but I think you get my point).
Actually this is a tip for ZOS balancing, they should've differentiate stam races by lore-friendly builds, for example orc best with S&B, nord with 2H, bosmer with bow, redguard with DW. It'll be ok if redguard became BiS dps with this, but still other races will have their niches being better with "their" weapons.. but now it's orc, orc, orc. Khajiit looks like stat dense enough in comparison to orc, but in practice you know results - khajiits were behind orcs and dunmers even on nightblades in susmitds's tests.
So yes, even from that graph it's clear that top skilled argonian stamblade will do double dps of average orc BiS Joe from pugs. But this doesn't change fact that we have 2 races from same alliance who have perfectly synergizied passives for any role and everybody else with flaws and limitations and basically no single tank race from AD for example, and no BiS level healer from Pact. Motivation to sale adventurer pack, eh?
I actually think that they've tried to do just that with the latest passives. Pretty funny that they managed to completely mess up some of the races though lore wise, wouldn't be too happy as a roleplayer with a Wood Elf
But I like how you think there, I think they should do the same.
Not a huge difference on that graph though, 3k from top to bottom. Which most likely is about 4-5k on the trial dummy (from the very best players). I think it's pretty fine. Some of those races have other advantages, especially for PvP.
I totally get the adventure pack argument though. I've always had it and never reflected about races locked to certain factions. But that's pretty stupid, especially when they change stuff.EU PC1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
What dps passive do we have other than that expensive potion one? Still working hard on that last forum star huh?
Increased max Magicka is contributing to additional damage.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
- why not?
- it would fit with lore to give them max stam as their whole thing is being adaptable so being a jack of all trades makes sense
- there's probably a reason no one plays them
- apparently "being adaptable" and "surviving in guerilla warfare" translates to a barely noticable healing bonus?????
Don't forget Argonians have been a mag/stam race since Arena. We were never good at tanking, and it wasn't till Skyrim when they dumbed the hell out of the series and remoived a lot of stuff that we got anything in healing. Our main stats have always been Int, Agi, and Speed. We had bonuses in Mysticism and Illusion I don't see tank in any of those stats, sure looks like the stats of a poison making assassin skilled in Alchemy though.
Well, argonians don't have plain tanking passives. It's all about ZOS's specific limitations put on tanking, which makes argonians so good in sustain tight permablock scenarios. If everything is going as planned and without much permablocking, I don't see much point at argonian tank. So far at this scenarios it's better for tank to go for off-dpsing and so "everything is orc" is again best choice.MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
Of course skill and experience is still times more effective then race or class. But this has nothing to do with balance, lore, "play the way you want" etc.
Here guys are completing vMoL with no-CP. Does it means that CP distribution can be ditched any time for any role any content?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2nDmk3pkzA
I think it has all to do with balance since the racials are very balanced today, more than they ever were. Of course some minor tweaking on some races, like argonians, would be nice, especially since healing done is a crappy stat compared to spell damage. But they are still very viable, and races doesn't make that much of a difference as people want to make it sound like.
That video is a perfect example of that player skill means so much more than race, gear and CP will ever do. Not that those factors don't matter, but like I said before, not by a long shot compared to player skill.
So my argument still stands, any race can do any role, and complete all content in the game.
Yes, but still it's unfair situation that argonians have weakest pack of passives for PVE roles (with exception of progression level tanking) and are good for PVP, while orcs are BiS dps, BiS high end tank (source - Liofa), and are good for PVP too.
Bretons are like orcs with exception that they share BiS for magicka dps with altmers and to certain extent with dunmers. Meanwhile bretons are BiS for magicka PVP (more viable then altmers/dunmers), BiS healers and considerable tanks (that load of magicka sustain is not a joke, as well as nice resistance bonus).
So we have:
- 2 races which can do everything effectively
- altmers with niche PVP off-resource regen, which is useless even for stamina PVE high elves
- 2 "hybrids" (jack of all trades, best for nothing, hybrids like viable PVE group role doesn't exist)
- 2 pigeon holed tank races
- redguards who still believe they are BiS for sustain (though in practice they are not, orc with lava foot soup has better sustain)
- 2 PVP niche races.
Sorry, I can't call this situation "racials are very balanced today", especially from PVE-side where vast majority spent 90% of their game time.
Examples:
High crit builds specializing in burst: Khajiit might be the best way to go.
Stamina builds almost exclusively using weapon line skills (like StamSorc), Redguard might overperform Orc.
These two races aren't considered BiS by any means, yet they can perform as good. Open up your mind and don't consider dummy humping in Siroria, Zaan and Spell Strategist the only way to measure how good a race is (and I'm not saying that you do exactly that, but I think you get my point).
Actually this is a tip for ZOS balancing, they should've differentiate stam races by lore-friendly builds, for example orc best with S&B, nord with 2H, bosmer with bow, redguard with DW. It'll be ok if redguard became BiS dps with this, but still other races will have their niches being better with "their" weapons.. but now it's orc, orc, orc. Khajiit looks like stat dense enough in comparison to orc, but in practice you know results - khajiits were behind orcs and dunmers even on nightblades in susmitds's tests.
So yes, even from that graph it's clear that top skilled argonian stamblade will do double dps of average orc BiS Joe from pugs. But this doesn't change fact that we have 2 races from same alliance who have perfectly synergizied passives for any role and everybody else with flaws and limitations and basically no single tank race from AD for example, and no BiS level healer from Pact. Motivation to sale adventurer pack, eh?
I actually think that they've tried to do just that with the latest passives. Pretty funny that they managed to completely mess up some of the races though lore wise, wouldn't be too happy as a roleplayer with a Wood Elf But I like how you think there, I think they should do the same.
Not a huge difference on that graph though, 3k from top to bottom. Which most likely is about 4-5k on the trial dummy (from the very best players). I think it's pretty fine. Some of those races have other advantages, especially for PvP.
I totally get the adventure pack argument though. I've always had it and never reflected about races locked to certain factions. But that's pretty stupid, especially when they change stuff.
Now we just need agreement of ZOS on this
And I don't call for orc or breton nerfs, devs may just slightly adjust all other races so they become more versatile (and fix lore problems too)1 -
Scythe_Mercer✭✭✭i would be ok with argonians having some extra stamina.
as a member of the dark elf master race, anything to help keep them working harder at my dunmeri estate is always a plus.
the last “employee” of mine to keel over from fatigue was made into a nice purse for my wife.
argonians and khajiits are NOT people. they are objects and hollow of spirit and meaning.
Surprised your wife hasn’t left you yet, anyone would if they were given an ugly purse. Where’s the toothpicks made from Bosmer antlers? Where’s Almalexia’s bath water? These are the real questions Dunmer should be asking!1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonians are a slave race. They're supposed to be the worst at everything!
We know ZOS cares a lot about the lore (see Bosmer stealth detection, Altmer stamina regen, Argonian lack of poison resistence, etc.), so this makes perfect sense.Edited by MLGProPlayer on July 12, 2019 4:06PM1 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »
Okay, but why was vMoL HM world first cleared with a Khajiit tank? Why is there still DDs that play argonians and other meta races that can complete the hardest content?
It's a big difference with being most effective, and being viable. And since race is just a couple of thousand DPS tops on the best players, it don't matter much at all for the average Joe.
It really just matters for players that can reach the ceiling skill- and performance-wise in this game (and there are not many of that). Not proper weaving light attacks into your rotation costs you five times the DPS a “subpar“ race would.
This whole “race x is only useful for y“ is and has always been nonsense for 99% of the playerbase.
If you want to play an Argonian DPS, do it, you won’t recognize any difference.
not the point of the OP. OP's issue isn't that argonians aren't "viable" as a dps, it's that they don't have any passives to support a dps role and are also just in general bad.
stop using diversion tactics to avoid the actual issue the op is talking about people
Neither do Argonians need a passive to support the DPS role nor are they bad. My Magicka Nightblade (DPS/Healer) is an Argonian and is doing absolutely fine. If you - whichever reason you have - think a DPS passive is mandatory for you then pick another race. Argonians have additional max Magicka and additional healing, one increases their performance (and yes, even DPS) as a damage dealer, the other their healing capabilities.
my magicka nightblade does fine so argonians must be fine
well i'm sure you'd make up any personal anecdote to dismiss every argument on the forums so i'll take that with a grain of salt
Magicka Nightblade is one of the weaker builds at the moment so there’s that. If I had said MagSorc though... nevermind.
Give me one plausible reason why Argonians must have another DPS racial.
What dps passive do we have other than that expensive potion one? Still working hard on that last forum star huh?
Increased max Magicka is contributing to additional damage.
You really do believe your own bs don't you?2 -
Scythe_Mercer✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Argonians are a slave race. They're supposed to be the worst at everything!
We know ZOS cares a lot about the lore (see Bosmer stealth detection, Altmer stamina regen, Argonian lack of poison resistence, etc.), so this makes perfect sense.
Everyone is a slave! It’s called faith and short sighted stupidity! Any who yeah passives are garbage, only one worthy of note is Resource passive. Same for Dunmer man only thing you CAN do with them well is MagDK? Everything else? Nah their cheeks got clapped hard.Edited by Scythe_Mercer on July 12, 2019 4:45PM1 -
damdamjel✭✭✭Blessing of the hist buff for argonians?. Another selective bonus like mundus stones? But we have cp already lol0 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭They should have a +% to poison/disease dot effects or something similar. +% to healing is so low its worthless.1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Would be nice to have some sort of small bonus to dps as an Argonian. It's ok being 2nd-3rd place racial choice for my six tanks, but I also have 6 magicka DD and 6 stam DD argonians that essentially are 'worst choice' for DPS builds. Say what you want about racials being closer together than they were, but nobody outside of crazy fools like me are picking an argonian for their Stamcro over Orc. Flip that around however and Orc isn't that far behind an Argonian for tanking. They get a few decent bonuses and really any race won't matter for it because outside of Nord who gets resistances and ultimate generation, no race gets bonuses that make them a 'better' tank, only bonuses that can make the job a bit easier.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No Argonians don’t. Your Argonian BUILD needs a dps skill. Why not try using skills from weapons lines, guild lines, assault etc etc. lol.
Or ZOS could add a passive where YOUR toon shows up and anything in 100m explodes for 100k physical damage, 100k magic damage, 100k flame damage, 100k Frost damage and then stuns and roots them for 30 seconds. Then, their ghosts get up and tbag their own dead bodies so you don’t have to lol.0
