Holding block in PvP

xylena_lazarow
xylena_lazarow
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Much of the frustration with the "tank meta" is how effective it is to simply hold block. With no specific investments in blocking other than equipping SnB, you can easily hold block and repeatedly heal to full (usually healing numerous allies in the process) for a good 10-15 seconds at a time minimum, while reducing incoming direct damage to nearly nothing. Very rarely will your 32k HP be bursted down in the second or two it takes to recover from an unblockable stun. All it takes to refresh your Stamina pool is a tri-pot and a defensive ulti.

Because of the rather unfortunate necessity of "perma blocking" in high end PvE tanking, balancing options are limited. Giving everyone access to an unblockable stun (Turn Evil) is a good start. However, the nerfs to PvE mass healing don't even address the PvP headache of full tank builds effectively healing entire zergs while holding block on their SnB bar, with no specific investment in healing itself. Rewarding such low-effort gameplay in this manner discourages players from developing their skills and instead encourages zerging.

Luckily, there already exists a pathway for mechanics to be scaled differently in PvP versus PvE without changing their core functionality. Battle Spirit could offer some combination of increasing block cost, decreasing block mitigation, and/or reducing healing done to other players. This can even be handled differently in CP and noCP PvP, and there are probably even better solutions out there that I haven't thought of! Either way, stacks of tanks healing each other makes for tedious PvP, so something needs to change.
PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    Good healers can and do spec heavily into healing. I don't know about large scale healing, but as a small to mid scale healer you are going to get heavily focused and you need to be tanky. A dead healer heals no one. Without collision, your ally tank can't come up and block for you to keep you alive.

    The root of the problem might be more about block casting than tankiness -- including block casting many damage skills.
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Oh you're gonna love this:

    "Unstoppable (morph):

    Renamed this morph to Immovable.
    This morph no longer increases the duration of the ability. Instead, while the snare persists, it increases the amount of damage you can block by 5% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, but also increases the snare potency by 5%. If you are in all 7 pieces of Heavy Armor, you will truly be, Immovable. Unless Elite difficulty enemies hit you with a special move, they don’t care if you think you’re immovable.
    "

    That's, what? 95% mitigation while blocking? :p
  • JumpmanLane
    JumpmanLane
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    Buff resource poisons! At 30% increase, no one was permablocking. Lol. Ah well...you can’t have your cake and eat it too...
    Edited by JumpmanLane on July 10, 2019 11:52AM
  • Amdar_Godkiller
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Oh you're gonna love this:

    "Unstoppable (morph):

    Renamed this morph to Immovable.
    This morph no longer increases the duration of the ability. Instead, while the snare persists, it increases the amount of damage you can block by 5% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, but also increases the snare potency by 5%. If you are in all 7 pieces of Heavy Armor, you will truly be, Immovable. Unless Elite difficulty enemies hit you with a special move, they don’t care if you think you’re immovable.
    "

    That's, what? 95% mitigation while blocking? :p

    How did I miss that? Didn't they reduce some of the block mitigation from S&B though too?

  • Gnozo
    Gnozo
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    How a tank is healing the whole zerg?

    Currently on live vigor heals an ally for like 600 hot. I want to see your math behind how you heal a whole zerg to full hp with a 600 hot.....

    Perma blocking eats so much stam, even in full sturdy. Its balanced atm. Just use unblockable CC, defile and cost potion.
  • Kadoin
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    Gnozo wrote: »
    How a tank is healing the whole zerg?

    Currently on live vigor heals an ally for like 600 hot. I want to see your math behind how you heal a whole zerg to full hp with a 600 hot.....

    Perma blocking eats so much stam, even in full sturdy. Its balanced atm. Just use unblockable CC, defile and cost potion.

    A tank doesn't even have the sustain to do it. Considering their faction can't even handle LA wearers with 9K resist not wearing shields without an army, I'd go on a limb and say they weren't facing a tank that was healing.
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    Gnozo wrote: »
    How a tank is healing the whole zerg?

    Currently on live vigor heals an ally for like 600 hot. I want to see your math behind how you heal a whole zerg to full hp with a 600 hot.....

    I think the OP is referring more to the general tank meta, where zerg balls all have 30k+ health, huge resists and zip damage without an ult bomb.

    Those S&B heavy armor argonian magplars are definitely not healing a whole zerg by blockcasting BoL, but the stack of cross-heals, purges, and Major Protection buffs do make for a tank healer blob.
  • Dojohoda
    Dojohoda
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    FEAR will cause a player to drop block, however FEAR doesn't work if the player is immune. With upcoming update, and if they don't change it, FEAR will be available to more people.

    Edit: There're probably more counters to block. Bash? As a mostly nightblade, I would just use fear.
    Edited by Dojohoda on July 10, 2019 4:18PM
    Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
    Might be joking in comments.
    -->(((Cyrodiil)))<--
  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    The root of the problem might be more about block casting than tankiness -- including block casting many damage skills.

    Perhaps blocking should reduce healing done, while buffing healing received? That would limit the effectiveness of healing other players while blocking, without hurting a tank's ability to self-heal.

    Gnozo wrote: »
    Currently on live vigor heals an ally for like 600 hot. I want to see your math behind how you heal a whole zerg to full hp with a 600 hot... Perma blocking eats so much stam, even in full sturdy. Its balanced atm. Just use unblockable CC, defile and cost potion.

    Zerg healers aren't using Vigor, they're block-casting Magicka heals like Templar BoL or Warden Shrooms. We lose more Defile sources and uptime every patch, and a single-target Defile doesn't affect that target's ability to heal allies. Cost poisons have likewise been nerfed repeatedly, and I don't think they have ever affected blocking.

    If they were to introduce a debuff that heavily reduces an enemy's healing done, and/or a debuff that specifically increases the enemy's block cost, that would add welcome counterplay and risk to jamming on the block button and spamming your one-button zerg saver.
    PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    The root of the problem might be more about block casting than tankiness -- including block casting many damage skills.

    Perhaps blocking should reduce healing done, while buffing healing received? That would limit the effectiveness of healing other players while blocking, without hurting a tank's ability to self-heal.

    Conceptually I like it, but it has practical problems.

    For one, it's a whole new buff/debuff category in a game with block cancelling. Applying and removing those buffs that often will be rough on server performance. Maybe a console/controller player will chime in, but I want to say they have to tap block frequently? If so, the timing on that could have collateral damage on their healing from various skills (jabs, Lash, etc) if they miss heal ticks for the sake of a tapped block.

    Same concept for PVE healing; if a healer has laid down HoTs and has to block for a boss mechanic, it could hit the whole team with a lower heal tick.

    In PVP, I feel like it nerfs light armor dps magplars more than random blockbots. Because magplar heals are reactive, I invest in the upfront mitigation in the Steed and Lady, and there's just not room leftover to invest heavily into The Lord tree. So Blessed is more practical even though you give up a little damage. Living Dark may change that equation; we'll see what the final version looks like next patch. Or if we ever see that CP rework.

    Meanwhile the reaction from any groups running blockbots will just be: "everyone put x more CP into Quick Recovery" and circumvent the whole mechanic.
  • Undefwun
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    Gnozo wrote: »
    How a tank is healing the whole zerg?

    Currently on live vigor heals an ally for like 600 hot. I want to see your math behind how you heal a whole zerg to full hp with a 600 hot.....

    Perma blocking eats so much stam, even in full sturdy. Its balanced atm. Just use unblockable CC, defile and cost potion.

    Well... there is sets like Battalion Defender... just fyi...I am neither here or there on the issue as I play mostly BGs...

    (5 items) After successfully blocking, heal yourself or a group member within 15 meters of you for 2300 Health. This effect can occur every 1 second.
    Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
    Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
    Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
    Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
    The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
    Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
    Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC

    Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
    Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
    Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP

    Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD
  • Stibbons
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    Pvp tanking cancer should be fixed. Like 2 or more years ago.
  • Stibbons
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    Undefwun wrote: »
    Gnozo wrote: »
    How a tank is healing the whole zerg?

    Currently on live vigor heals an ally for like 600 hot. I want to see your math behind how you heal a whole zerg to full hp with a 600 hot.....

    Perma blocking eats so much stam, even in full sturdy. Its balanced atm. Just use unblockable CC, defile and cost potion.

    Well... there is sets like Battalion Defender... just fyi...I am neither here or there on the issue as I play mostly BGs...

    (5 items) After successfully blocking, heal yourself or a group member within 15 meters of you for 2300 Health. This effect can occur every 1 second.

    Two or three Dragonknights meta has been here for ages.
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