Evasion (base morph of Shuffle) - 5.1.0 - Major Expedition Too Much

NBrookus · July 2019

I agree with the OP. It's too much. Mobility is always a major benefit in pvp games. Medium already has the best mobility (and mag sorc). It's functionally 100% combat uptime on Major Expedition combined with Evasion, which is already a strong buff. When stacked with Steed and Swift we'll be back to the lol-can't-hit-me meta.

Minor Expedition would be too weak, agreed, except when stacked with bow dodge Expedition.

I'd rather see this skill get a rarer Minor buff to go with the Evasion. Minor Brutality or Minor Ward/Resolve perhaps.

templesus · July 2019

Yiko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I didn’t need to counter your point about the implementation being funky, because I acknowledged it and provided another option. My point was that your specific proposals would cause the ability to no longer be slotted on a LOT of builds, not sure where you missed that. Did you even read my suggestion?

And btw your nonsense about speed makes no sense, you said medium armor has the best mobility which I countered and said is only the case when you sprint, as the spec has no other true source of mobility that is unique to it. If you have to use stamina to be mobile, then the same can be applied to classes using magicka to be mobile, in which case you can directly compare mobility of a light armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds and a medium armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds. Such a comparison would be (Magicka Costing for LA) RaT + Streak + Path + Bird of Prey + Boundless vs (Stamina costing for MA) Sprinting + Hurricane + Shuffle, all dependent on the class you’re comparing. Things like Elusive Mist, Bow dodge roll and Quick Cloak cannot apply here because they are not accessible on all builds and pigeonhole you into running a certain weapon, unlike an ability like RaT. That’s what you call a direct comparison.

When you look at objectively, without the new iteration of shuffle, magicka clearly has better mobility then medium armor. Period.

Oh, it's probably because this doesn't read like an acknowledgement of an issue:

templesus wrote: »

What you’re proposing is that the major expedition is too easy to proc, and that’s fine you think that way

Especially when you affirm:

templesus wrote: »

Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

Why would you acknowledge the implementation being funky and then go on to suggest that ZOS stay with the initial design and that it was a good change?
Yes, I got your point about some builds not using Shuffle given Forward Momentum's changes. Basically all you can say is that a LOT of people won't use Shuffle while I and others can say a LOT of people will use Shuffle. No use arguing that point. There are merits to each build choice.

My point about the speed of builds was how ridiculous it was to frame it like that. How are we gauging mobility? What is the context? Determining mobility and autonomy is so much more nuanced than RaT 30% > Sprint 21%. Medium Armor users can roll dodge cast Vigor, while dodging several attacks, and take off sprinting on an Orc or Wood Elf (who have good synergy with stamina/Medium Armor). Magicka users might have to block that incoming damage and/or take a global to shield. Stamina users have more mobility options at their immediate disposal that give them greater agency/autonomy. On top of that, how many Stamina users do you think use 2H skill line. Most, right? Now... how about Medium Armor S&B users. Would you submit that there are probably more Bow or Dual Wield users than SnB users, given that we have 2 weapon bars? I would definitely suggest that, so they likely have access to Major Expedition. Okay, so discount that, since it's not "native." Aren't speed pots better designed for stamina use than magicka ones, given the available bonuses tied with them? Okay, but discount that. Let's just look at how you're framing it. A magicka user who has RaT racing against a Stamina user with presumably 6 Medium Armor in a straight line. The magicka user has 40% Sprint + 30% from RaT. The Stamina user has 58% from Sprint, 68% if Orc and 68% on Wood Elf is roll dodge passives engaged. These races are fine to use for this, as they're the most common stamina races, yes? You're arguing about a 2%-12% difference, CONSIDERING that the Magicka user WILL be using their precious Stam pool for sprint, discounting roll dodge mobility + damage avoidance, discounting stam's larger resource pool and recovery of said pool, and discounting how easy it is to get Major Expedition on a Stam build. An Orc in 7 medium LITERALLY sprints faster than a sprinting magicka character with RaT active. That's all "native." Do you see why I wrote what I did earlier? It's because it was as equally ridiculous and asinine as what you were suggesting. Who cares if stam has to Sprint to access some of their mobility? Every class has to use resources to get their mobility (except after this Shuffle implementation which you cast after a CC break with 80% discount and proceed to get it passively for basically free for 20s+). Sprint is one of the factors that contributes to Stam's superior mobility/agency. Also Major Expedition is so easy to get. Grab a bow, grab vBRP DW, or grab potions. An Orc Stamplar REGAINS stamina with Restoring Focus down as he sprints faster than your mag character with RaT. The only thing you can point to is Mag Sorc mobility, which is an outlier. You could also say that Medium Armor mobility is too tied up in sprint, which inhibits actions. That said, they can generally get from point A to point B faster and more safely while under pressure. So now they're proposing that this already more mobile Armor type becomes SIGNIFICANTLY more passively mobile. I could get behind a lower amount of movement speed, but Major Expedition is too potent.
I feel like I've been trolled, or maybe these people haven't played Medium Armor since 2016.

I’m sorry but I need a TL;DR. Your abysmal grammar and lack of paragraph separation makes all that way too much to read at 2 am. At the end of the day Medium is supposed to be mobile. Period. It shouldn’t be a close gap between medium and magicka like it is currently, especially when you consider that the most common magicka class inside of Cyrodiil (Mag Sorc) is more mobile then any stam class in the game.

Yiko · July 2019

NBrookus wrote: »

I agree with the OP. It's too much. Mobility is always a major benefit in pvp games. Medium already has the best mobility (and mag sorc). It's functionally 100% combat uptime on Major Expedition combined with Evasion, which is already a strong buff. When stacked with Steed and Swift we'll be back to the lol-can't-hit-me meta.

Minor Expedition would be too weak, agreed, except when stacked with bow dodge Expedition.

I'd rather see this skill get a rarer Minor buff to go with the Evasion. Minor Brutality or Minor Ward/Resolve perhaps.

Thanks for the post! Yeah, attaching a minor buff that isn't Expedition could be a good solution for sure. Tying a damage buff into it would be a cool way to buff Medium Armor users without really impacting PVE, since I doubt they'd slot Shuffle for the Minor Brutality.

templesus wrote: »

I’m sorry but I need a TL;DR. Your abysmal grammar and lack of paragraph separation makes all that way too much to read at 2 am.

Sorry for the wall of text. I tidied that up for you. I wish I could help with the grammar. My sentences are generally understood by most English-speaking literates.

The basic TL;DR is that you are wrong about magicka currently having better general mobility than Medium Armor. "Period."

You are right about one thing, though! It is late. Good night~

wheem_ESO · July 2019

master_vanargand wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The purpose of the change is to create a reason to equip Medium Armor in PvP.
Minor Expedition is too weak, so Major Expedition is best.
Medium Armor doesn't have damage shields and high resistance.
So ZOS gave a speed for Medium Armor.
Speed is a new strength of Medium Armor.

Everyone should stop crying and adapt.

Light armor doesn't give high resistance either, and shields are really overrated for some builds (though obviously pretty crucial on others). Medium armor still has dodge roll, along with an improved Shuffle (even if the Major Expedition is removed), and didn't really have too many problems with mobility to begin with, especially when compared to non-Sorc Magicka builds.

I'm with the OP on this one; we don't need medium armor builds that are able to maintain virtually 100% uptime on Major Expedition - almost passively - while also being completely immune to snares and roots when up against certain opponents.

adapt.

This type of response isn't nearly as pithy as some seem to think it is. In many cases, there simply won't be any adaptation possible...your opponent is just going to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition if you fight back, and will be able to engage or disengage at will.

100% uptime? That's a cry.
You can stop using AOE.
Or you can use skill of reduce the Movement Speed.
Why do you keep crying when you can adapt?

Stop using AOE? That's a perfectly fine suggestion on some classes, but for something like a Magicka Warden, Magicka Necromancer, many Templar setups, etc...you might as well reword that to, "Stop trying to kill that enemy player." On some builds AOE is really your only option if you want to have meaningful offense.

And how do you expect to reduce the movement speed of a target that has snare and root immunity? This new version of Evasion may not be cheap enough to literally be spammed, but the uptime can still be quite high, especially if they do decide to dip out and reset the fight (which they'll be able to do at will vs some classes, as long as they don't overcommit to a really large degree).

This is something that would happen constantly in Battlegrounds during previous patches. StamBro#259628957 engages my Magicka Warden, and if I start to get the upper hand, they'll dodge roll once or twice while having super speed, then stand around LOS waiting for another speedster to engage me so they can backstab. Running away from them, or running them down when they started to flee, simply weren't options.

It's not necessarily a problem for medium armor stamina builds to have "better" mobility than most magicka setups, as long as the gap isn't too large. To look at it from another angle: I don't think it's unreasonable that less mobile classes should tend to be a bit more durable than highly mobile ones, but it'd be silly if everyone that lacked mobility was able to run around with 40k HP and capped resists while still having good offense.

Cinbri · July 2019

Agree. medium got buffs of evasion it desperately needed. An with nerfs of heavy armor builds more people will consider to go to medium specs.
No need to overbuff medium to the point where it will become pain point after next update and medium builds will get chains of nerfs into oblivion coz it.

Ragnaroek93 · July 2019

The problem is more jabs at this point. I'd suggest to give Jabs (and both morphs) the treatment of Curse: Let the dmg on the main target count as single target damage and the 60% to other targets as AoE. That'd sound like a good solution to me. Major Evasion will be easily accessable next patch and therefore I really think that Jabs should get a special treatment to bypass it somehow.

Qbiken · July 2019

Overbuffed medium will just shift the heavy armor meta (which honestly isn't that big of an issue imo, but whatever) to a medium armor meta.

More damage, better mobility, better healing (especially with vigor buffs) and similar tankiness as the current heavy.

gg zos, gg......

Sacredx · July 2019

PvP wise the proposed evasion changes are imo perfectly fine. Medium armor users using evasion will still get knocked/stunned/disoriented/silenced/feared/pulled. They will still take full direct damage regardless of evasion, and even more compared to say a heavy build. Giving them some extra mobility is a good way to encourage the use of this skill, but for reasons above it is certainly not op.

Morgul667 · July 2019

I like the fact medium becomes mobile

master_vanargand · July 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The purpose of the change is to create a reason to equip Medium Armor in PvP.
Minor Expedition is too weak, so Major Expedition is best.
Medium Armor doesn't have damage shields and high resistance.
So ZOS gave a speed for Medium Armor.
Speed is a new strength of Medium Armor.

Everyone should stop crying and adapt.

Light armor doesn't give high resistance either, and shields are really overrated for some builds (though obviously pretty crucial on others). Medium armor still has dodge roll, along with an improved Shuffle (even if the Major Expedition is removed), and didn't really have too many problems with mobility to begin with, especially when compared to non-Sorc Magicka builds.

I'm with the OP on this one; we don't need medium armor builds that are able to maintain virtually 100% uptime on Major Expedition - almost passively - while also being completely immune to snares and roots when up against certain opponents.

adapt.

This type of response isn't nearly as pithy as some seem to think it is. In many cases, there simply won't be any adaptation possible...your opponent is just going to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition if you fight back, and will be able to engage or disengage at will.

100% uptime? That's a cry.
You can stop using AOE.
Or you can use skill of reduce the Movement Speed.
Why do you keep crying when you can adapt?

Stop using AOE? That's a perfectly fine suggestion on some classes, but for something like a Magicka Warden, Magicka Necromancer, many Templar setups, etc...you might as well reword that to, "Stop trying to kill that enemy player." On some builds AOE is really your only option if you want to have meaningful offense.

And how do you expect to reduce the movement speed of a target that has snare and root immunity? This new version of Evasion may not be cheap enough to literally be spammed, but the uptime can still be quite high, especially if they do decide to dip out and reset the fight (which they'll be able to do at will vs some classes, as long as they don't overcommit to a really large degree).

This is something that would happen constantly in Battlegrounds during previous patches. StamBro#259628957 engages my Magicka Warden, and if I start to get the upper hand, they'll dodge roll once or twice while having super speed, then stand around LOS waiting for another speedster to engage me so they can backstab. Running away from them, or running them down when they started to flee, simply weren't options.

It's not necessarily a problem for medium armor stamina builds to have "better" mobility than most magicka setups, as long as the gap isn't too large. To look at it from another angle: I don't think it's unreasonable that less mobile classes should tend to be a bit more durable than highly mobile ones, but it'd be silly if everyone that lacked mobility was able to run around with 40k HP and capped resists while still having good offense.

Everyone adapted to Elusive Mist, Forward Momentum, Race Against Time, Phantasmal Escape.
And everyone adapts to new Shuffle.
Still don't you want to adapt?
Ah...hmm...you can be CEO of ZOS and create your paradise.

Minno · July 2019

New skill will be fine. We need to play this patch; to many tooltip warriors on the forums lol

Kolache · July 2019

It's still less powerful than what it was previously--better medium to be slippery than tanky.

templesus · July 2019

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The problem is more jabs at this point. I'd suggest to give Jabs (and both morphs) the treatment of Curse: Let the dmg on the main target count as single target damage and the 60% to other targets as AoE. That'd sound like a good solution to me. Major Evasion will be easily accessable next patch and therefore I really think that Jabs should get a special treatment to bypass it somehow.

Lol Jabs is a dead skill. Not worth slotting on live and not worth it come Scalebreaker. And I’m a Stamplar/Magplar main. Says a lot.

Major expedition on medium is fine. Speed increases skill gap in the game, which is a good thing.

akray21 · July 2019

Have to compare it to the most similar skill, Momentum. If balancing against this skill it makes sense as it's a choice between brutality and expedition.

Momentum:
Major Brutality
Major Evasion
Snare Removal

Evasion:
Major Expedition
Major Evasion
Snare Removal

Yiko · July 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stop using AOE? That's a perfectly fine suggestion on some classes, but for something like a Magicka Warden, Magicka Necromancer, many Templar setups, etc...you might as well reword that to, "Stop trying to kill that enemy player." On some builds AOE is really your only option if you want to have meaningful offense.

And how do you expect to reduce the movement speed of a target that has snare and root immunity? This new version of Evasion may not be cheap enough to literally be spammed, but the uptime can still be quite high, especially if they do decide to dip out and reset the fight (which they'll be able to do at will vs some classes, as long as they don't overcommit to a really large degree).

I was hoping that people would be able to see the implications of AoE proccing Major Expedition. Your "stop trying to kill that enemy player" is spot on. It's too much survivability via mobility, ESPECIALLY considering that it's passively procced. Do we need to make a list of EVERY ability/effect that will proc it and how players' builds are designed/balanced around those abilities? Why should a Medium Armor user's opponent be the one to effectively choose when the Major Expedition is applied? They should not feel punished for using their build as it was designed. Medium Armor will have too much survivability, especially considering the buffed self-cast Vigor.

If they're going to give stam users easy access to Major Expedition, then it should be on demand/the player CHOOSING to activate it. That would be in-line with the vision they have for this PTS and would promote healthier gameplay.

Also, I imagine people will be able to keep up Shuffle often and cheaply using Unchained CP bonus.

Cinbri wrote: »

Agree. medium got buffs of evasion it desperately needed. An with nerfs of heavy armor builds more people will consider to go to medium specs.
No need to overbuff medium to the point where it will become pain point after next update and medium builds will get chains of nerfs into oblivion coz it.

Yup, I would rather Medium Armor be properly addressed now. If they have determined that the armor type needs more value, then they should address it in another way. I don't want Medium Armor balanced around a poorly implemented powerful buff that users don't even generally decide when they get to activate. It will be brainless to play with and frustrating to play against. Not good design.

Morgul667 wrote: »

I like the fact medium becomes mobile

Medium is ALREADY mobile.

Minno wrote: »

New skill will be fine. We need to play this patch; to many tooltip warriors on the forums lol

This is just a silly thing to say for multiple reasons. These forums are designed for feedback. Do you think Medium Armor mobility/survivability is going to get properly tested in all of the 1v1s on the PTS centered around a duel flag? Also, what's wrong with reacting to a tooltip? People who have an understanding of a system can envision how the system will shift/react given a proposed change. For example, that's how Curse Eater was flagged and nerfed into the ground before that abomination could see the light of live servers. Why did Curse Eater get nerfed again? Wasn't it because it gave the user a significant boost to survivability without that user having to make a conscious decision at the time of activation? Sounds pretty similar to this iteration of Shuffle, actually.
Try to be more open-minded and productive next time.

Kolache wrote: »

It's still less powerful than what it was previously--better medium to be slippery than tanky.

Yeah, but Heavy Armor users could use it previously, and RNG dodge was bad design. The game is different now. I do agree that it's better design for Medium Armor to be slippery rather than tanky, but this iteration of Shuffle is not the way to achieve that.

akray21 wrote: »

Have to compare it to the most similar skill, Momentum. If balancing against this skill it makes sense as it's a choice between brutality and expedition.

Momentum:
Major Brutality
Major Evasion
Snare Removal

Evasion:
Major Expedition
Major Evasion
Snare Removal

I see what you're saying, but you'd have to compare them in more detail (costs, duration of immunity, total duration of ability, Momentum tied into 2h bar) while also keeping in mind that this PTS cycle is when Momentum gained Major Evasion. This will need testing/discussion, as it may provide too much mitigation for tanky builds that were already using FM and foregoing the use of Shuffle.

Minno · July 2019

Yiko wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stop using AOE? That's a perfectly fine suggestion on some classes, but for something like a Magicka Warden, Magicka Necromancer, many Templar setups, etc...you might as well reword that to, "Stop trying to kill that enemy player." On some builds AOE is really your only option if you want to have meaningful offense.

And how do you expect to reduce the movement speed of a target that has snare and root immunity? This new version of Evasion may not be cheap enough to literally be spammed, but the uptime can still be quite high, especially if they do decide to dip out and reset the fight (which they'll be able to do at will vs some classes, as long as they don't overcommit to a really large degree).

I was hoping that people would be able to see the implications of AoE proccing Major Expedition. Your "stop trying to kill that enemy player" is spot on. It's too much survivability via mobility, ESPECIALLY considering that it's passively procced. Do we need to make a list of EVERY ability/effect that will proc it and how players' builds are designed/balanced around those abilities? Why should a Medium Armor user's opponent be the one to effectively choose when the Major Expedition is applied? They should not feel punished for using their build as it was designed. Medium Armor will have too much survivability, especially considering the buffed self-cast Vigor.

If they're going to give stam users easy access to Major Expedition, then it should be on demand/the player CHOOSING to activate it. That would be in-line with the vision they have for this PTS and would promote healthier gameplay.

Also, I imagine people will be able to keep up Shuffle often and cheaply using Unchained CP bonus.

Cinbri wrote: »

Agree. medium got buffs of evasion it desperately needed. An with nerfs of heavy armor builds more people will consider to go to medium specs.
No need to overbuff medium to the point where it will become pain point after next update and medium builds will get chains of nerfs into oblivion coz it.

Yup, I would rather Medium Armor be properly addressed now. If they have determined that the armor type needs more value, then they should address it in another way. I don't want Medium Armor balanced around a poorly implemented powerful buff that users don't even generally decide when they get to activate. It will be brainless to play with and frustrating to play against. Not good design.

Morgul667 wrote: »

I like the fact medium becomes mobile

Medium is ALREADY mobile.

Minno wrote: »

New skill will be fine. We need to play this patch; to many tooltip warriors on the forums lol

This is just a silly thing to say for multiple reasons. These forums are designed for feedback. Do you think Medium Armor mobility/survivability is going to get properly tested in all of the 1v1s on the PTS centered around a duel flag? Also, what's wrong with reacting to a tooltip? People who have an understanding of a system can envision how the system will shift/react given a proposed change. For example, that's how Curse Eater was flagged and nerfed into the ground before that abomination could see the light of live servers. Why did Curse Eater get nerfed again? Wasn't it because it gave the user a significant boost to survivability without that user having to make a conscious decision at the time of activation? Sounds pretty similar to this iteration of Shuffle, actually.
Try to be more open-minded and productive next time.

Kolache wrote: »

It's still less powerful than what it was previously--better medium to be slippery than tanky.

Yeah, but Heavy Armor users could use it previously, and RNG dodge was bad design. The game is different now. I do agree that it's better design for Medium Armor to be slippery rather than tanky, but this iteration of Shuffle is not the way to achieve that.

akray21 wrote: »

Have to compare it to the most similar skill, Momentum. If balancing against this skill it makes sense as it's a choice between brutality and expedition.

Momentum:
Major Brutality
Major Evasion
Snare Removal

Evasion:
Major Expedition
Major Evasion
Snare Removal

I see what you're saying, but you'd have to compare them in more detail (costs, duration of immunity, total duration of ability, Momentum tied into 2h bar) while also keeping in mind that this PTS cycle is when Momentum gained Major Evasion. This will need testing/discussion, as it may provide too much mitigation for tanky builds that were already using FM and foregoing the use of Shuffle.

Lol listen man, show me gameplay showing the new shuffle overperforming in 1vx/duels and I'll sign up for the nerfing. Till then the changes are fine.

Zelos · July 2019

The shuffle change lines medium armor up perfectly, I wouldnt change anything. Shuffles buff bas been waiting for about 2 years.

templesus · July 2019

Take away major expedition completely = dead skill. Way too many abilities being added to warrant running an ability solely for an extra 1-3 seconds of snare immunity and the (nerfed) burst heal from rally. Way too many. If Forward were to lose major evasion, that’d be a different story, but it does and you’re not arguing for that you’re arguing for Shuffle/Elude changes.

And to say that two crucial abilities need nerfs before PTS is even up is absolutely comical and downright asinine. So please don’t retort with saying that Forward shouldn’t have major evasion, it’ll just make you look like one of those forum magicka users who raises pitchforks anytime a buff comes around.

Yiko · July 2019

Zelos wrote: »

The shuffle change lines medium armor up perfectly, I wouldnt change anything. Shuffles buff bas been waiting for about 2 years.

Yup, even without the Major Expedition, it received cost reduction and double the snare/root immunity.

Care to comment on how this iteration of Shuffle conflicts with this patch's goals of promoting active gameplay? How the unconscious mobility/survivability Major Expedition buff punishes opponents who are using their core skills as designed/intended?

templesus wrote: »

Take away major expedition completely = dead skill. Way too many abilities being added to warrant running an ability solely for an extra 1-3 seconds of snare immunity and the (nerfed) burst heal from rally. Way too many. If Forward were to lose major evasion, that’d be a different story, but it does and you’re not arguing for that you’re arguing for Shuffle/Elude changes.

And to say that two crucial abilities need nerfs before PTS is even up is absolutely comical and downright asinine. So please don’t retort with saying that Forward shouldn’t have major evasion, it’ll just make you look like one of those forum magicka users who raises pitchforks anytime a buff comes around.

That's your opinion. I'm sure people will still be using Rally and Shuffle for the reasons that you stated. Either way, this unconscious mobility (and therefore survivability) buff is not healthy game design. This is coming from someone who has played Medium Armor almost exclusively since 2015.

I haven't said that FM needs nerfs and shouldn't have Major Evasion, so please don't put words in my mouth. I said:

Yiko wrote: »

This will need testing/discussion, as it may provide too much mitigation for tanky builds that were already using FM and foregoing the use of Shuffle.

[snip]

[edited for baiting, non-constructive comment]

NBrookus · July 2019

Another option instead of Expedition would be a penetration buff for x seconds. It would be a buff in a spot medium doesn't currently have without causing targeting issues again.

kalunte · July 2019

the major expedition proc should be only on the morph that does not grant snare imunity.

Crixus8000 · July 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

Agree. Minor Expedition would be enough

So medium stamsorc would be useless ?

Khenzy · July 2019

Suggestion.

Evasion: Major Evasion. Retains the cost reduction.
-Elude: Also provides major Expedition on AoE damage.
-Shuffle: Also provides snare and immobilization immunity 1 sec per piece. No longer gives Major Expedition.

HackTheMinotaur · July 2019

Whoever dropped 7 seconds of major expedition on Elude clearly missed the memo from last year’s speed nerfs. That’s an easy 100% uptime in any Battleground match. What happened to limiting major expedition to 4 seconds? Given this they should just revert speed potions back to 45 seconds as well.

Sorry I am snarky today. It’s just that changes like this show no commitment to consistency or direction in Combat design. We all adapted to the complete gutting of major expedition from EVERY skill in the game for almost a year. Now they bring it back passively, for doing nothing but getting nicked by one AOE tick? Really? 🧐

Minno · July 2019

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

Whoever dropped 7 seconds of major expedition on Elude clearly missed the memo from last year’s speed nerfs. That’s an easy 100% uptime in any Battleground match. What happened to limiting major expedition to 4 seconds? Given this they should just revert speed potions back to 45 seconds as well.

Sorry I am snarky today. It’s just that changes like this show no commitment to consistency or direction in Combat design. We all adapted to the complete gutting of major expedition from EVERY skill in the game for almost a year. Now they bring it back passively, for doing nothing but getting nicked by one AOE tick? Really? 🧐

Snare/slow meta was garbage. Fast meta was better.

Yiko · July 2019

NBrookus wrote: »

Another option instead of Expedition would be a penetration buff for x seconds. It would be a buff in a spot medium doesn't currently have without causing targeting issues again.

Something like that is definitely doable, and you're saying it would apply a flat buff to penetration from the initial Shuffle cast, right? I''m totally receptive to the idea that Shuffle can get a flat offensive or utility buff if we deem that it needs more value after removal of the unconscious conditional Major Expedition application.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

So medium stamsorc would be usless ?

It could give an unnamed flat % movement speed buff. I'm sure you'd appreciate any change as a stam sorc, though. Don't want your Hurricane giving all nearby Medium Armor users with Shuffle Major Expedition over and over

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

Whoever dropped 7 seconds of major expedition on Elude clearly missed the memo from last year’s speed nerfs. That’s an easy 100% uptime in any Battleground match. What happened to limiting major expedition to 4 seconds? Given this they should just revert speed potions back to 45 seconds as well.

Sorry I am snarky today. It’s just that changes like this show no commitment to consistency or direction in Combat design. We all adapted to the complete gutting of major expedition from EVERY skill in the game for almost a year. Now they bring it back passively, for doing nothing but getting nicked by one AOE tick? Really? 🧐

Well said! This iteration of Shuffle is not in-line with previous Major Expedition/Movement Speed changes, where the buff was made more scarce. If they're trying to give Medium Armor Major Expedition now that Magicka builds are running RaT, then they should give users direct control over when to activate the Major Expedition, since it's such a potent buff for mobility and survivability.

Minno wrote: »

Snare/slow meta was garbage. Fast meta was better.

Totally agree that snare/slow meta was garbage. So was Swift meta. I do miss the 1.6 days when Major Expedition, Bow passive, and Sprint all stacked, but TTK was SIGNIFICANTLY shorter back then, so the mobility/speed was more justified even if imbalanced.

I could get behind a "fast meta" right now, so long as it's controlled. I like RaT for magicka classes. I think it's well-designed and that the snare removal was necessary for healthy gameplay.

This version of Shuffle lacks that control. It's an unconscious activation of a powerful mobility (and therefore survivability) buff. It doesn't promote thoughtful gameplay, and it will be frustrating to play against for various builds using core elements of their kit/build for their intended purposes.

templesus · July 2019

Yiko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

“Stop posting” because you know what I’m saying is the only logical counter to your argument. And I never put any words in your mouth, simply said don’t use that argument. I will continue to give my 2 cents as long as nerfs are asked for.

Eh, it seemed like you were implying that's what I was doing.

The reason I asked you to stop posting was because your argument is basically not addressing the substance of my argument. You're repeating, "Shuffle can't be nerfed, because this new iteration of Forward Momentum exists. If Shuffle loses Major Expedition, people won't use Rally/Shuffle."

The entire argument hinges on subjective valuation of Rally burst heal, Shuffle's extra 1-3 seconds of immunity, and Shuffles ability to be placed outside of the 2h bar. There's no real point in arguing back-and-forth about those subjective values when the CORE discussion is focused on poor game design in the form of unconscious mobility/survivability.

It's like you're continuously saying "This instance of poor design is fine, because if it is nerfed, there is no reason to use it." That's not even necessarily true, but like I said, no point in arguing about the subjective value in using it or not using it. I would rather address the poor design. Can this ability be changed so that it's still valuable to Medium Armor users without unconscious bursts of mobility/survivability? Does it need that? That's what I'm here to discuss. If you're saying that this iteration of the ability is completely well-designed, then that's something I'd be interested in you elaborating on.

Look, I main Stamplar and a bit of Magplar when I feel like hopping on a magicka toon (although I’ve played pretty much all classes) and it’s literally the only class in the game who’s spammable is an AOE, and I’ve truthfully dropped Jabs on both toons for dizzying and clench because of Major Evasion’s ease of accessibility so I do no damage and when I hit someone they get Major expedition and basically become untouchable.

And y’know what? I would rather not have jabs/sweeps then to lose major expedition on shuffle. That’s how important the ability to move is to me as a solo/small scale player. I already stated if the AOE mechanic feels to broken, then I suggest changing it to Major expedition on CAST, 1 second for each piece of medium armor equipped. This way it can be more comparable to RaT but with 1-3 seconds of longer duration, which is logical because medium is SUPPOSED to be fast.

Me personally? I’m fine with it as is. I’ve gladly traded in my class spammable on PTS for the sake of being able to move and I am not complaining.

wheem_ESO · July 2019

templesus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

“Stop posting” because you know what I’m saying is the only logical counter to your argument. And I never put any words in your mouth, simply said don’t use that argument. I will continue to give my 2 cents as long as nerfs are asked for.

Eh, it seemed like you were implying that's what I was doing.

The reason I asked you to stop posting was because your argument is basically not addressing the substance of my argument. You're repeating, "Shuffle can't be nerfed, because this new iteration of Forward Momentum exists. If Shuffle loses Major Expedition, people won't use Rally/Shuffle."

The entire argument hinges on subjective valuation of Rally burst heal, Shuffle's extra 1-3 seconds of immunity, and Shuffles ability to be placed outside of the 2h bar. There's no real point in arguing back-and-forth about those subjective values when the CORE discussion is focused on poor game design in the form of unconscious mobility/survivability.

It's like you're continuously saying "This instance of poor design is fine, because if it is nerfed, there is no reason to use it." That's not even necessarily true, but like I said, no point in arguing about the subjective value in using it or not using it. I would rather address the poor design. Can this ability be changed so that it's still valuable to Medium Armor users without unconscious bursts of mobility/survivability? Does it need that? That's what I'm here to discuss. If you're saying that this iteration of the ability is completely well-designed, then that's something I'd be interested in you elaborating on.

Look, I main Stamplar and a bit of Magplar when I feel like hopping on a magicka toon (although I’ve played pretty much all classes) and it’s literally the only class in the game who’s spammable is an AOE, and I’ve truthfully dropped Jabs on both toons for dizzying and clench because of Major Evasion’s ease of accessibility so I do no damage and when I hit someone they get Major expedition and basically become untouchable.

And y’know what? I would rather not have jabs/sweeps then to lose major expedition on shuffle. That’s how important the ability to move is to me as a solo/small scale player. I already stated if the AOE mechanic feels to broken, then I suggest changing it to Major expedition on CAST, 1 second for each piece of medium armor equipped. This way it can be more comparable to RaT but with 1-3 seconds of longer duration, which is logical because medium is SUPPOSED to be fast.

Me personally? I’m fine with it as is. I’ve gladly traded in my class spammable on PTS for the sake of being able to move and I am not complaining.

Now go main a Magicka Warden without Shalks, and a Magicka Necromancer without Blastbones.

I also suggested having the Major Expedition be limited to when the ability is first "cast," and/or having an internal cooldown to restrict the uptime. But even then, I think Shuffle would make the Hasty Retreat passive from bows obsolete...unless of course people start coming up with a viable way to play heavy armor archer builds.

ProzTh3Almighty · July 2019

Medium armor is supposed to be the most mobile of the armor types. It should be the fastest and hardest to lock down for real. I tested it an Others had no problem landing hits. If someones fighting you theyll be in range at some point keeps your buffs up an wait for your burst window.

ProzTh3Almighty · July 2019

And dont chase! Thats how you end up in 1vX videos