Molten Whip - Why Not?

raasdal · June 2019

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2019

who 3 page thread here about it- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480665/frustrated-about-molten-whip/p1

Waffennacht · June 2019

Doyle? Really? In this meta? Ok, I think everything but Doyle sounds great lol

I think I faced one this far. Hit like a truck - if he could pin me down - not easy to do with RAT being around

JumpmanLane · June 2019

raasdal wrote: »

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

You’re only missing that no one on the combat team pvps on a MagDk at a high level and you’d be better off running flame lash.

Molten is designed to “put whip on par with” whatever and is not a skill added to do so in a way you actually PLAY MagDk.

Qbiken · June 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

You’re only missing that no one on the combat team pvps on a MagDk at a high level and you’d be better off running flame lash.

Molten is designed to “put whip on par with” whatever and is not a skill added to do so in a way you actually PLAY MagDk.

I just backbar blackrose resto and all heals are take care for (might as well get carried by it until ZOS hopefully nerfs it). Molten hits harder than flame-/powerlash + if my enemy dodge the procced Molten whip the stacks aren't consumed. It's one of the more busted stuff ZOS has thrown out in a while. "Casually" hitting people for 8-9k+ molten whips in no-cp without running any real damage set.

raasdal · June 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

who 3 page thread here about it- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480665/frustrated-about-molten-whip/p1

Thanks for that link! Just feels like alot of PvE players discussing definition of spammable and how it benefits stamdk.

I still cannot find ANY reason for a MagDK to not run this in PVP, except for the missing heal.

Well, will find out for myself in a couple of days when i get back online. Cant wait!

Waffennacht wrote: »

Doyle? Really? In this meta? Ok, I think everything but Doyle sounds great lol

I think I faced one this far. Hit like a truck - if he could pin me down - not easy to do with RAT being around

Yeah, i know. Might have to find a different cheese.. Sigh...

Qbiken wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

You’re only missing that no one on the combat team pvps on a MagDk at a high level and you’d be better off running flame lash.

Molten is designed to “put whip on par with” whatever and is not a skill added to do so in a way you actually PLAY MagDk.

I just backbar blackrose resto and all heals are take care for (might as well get carried by it until ZOS hopefully nerfs it). Molten hits harder than flame-/powerlash + if my enemy dodge the procced Molten whip the stacks aren't consumed. It's one of the more busted stuff ZOS has thrown out in a while. "Casually" hitting people for 8-9k+ molten whips in no-cp without running any real damage set.

Exactly my feelings. Did not even realize stacks were not consumed on activation, but on hit. Makes it even more OP.

jcm2606 · June 2019

I just don't think it's a well designed skill, in fact I think it's rather poorly designed. I've tried it, I can definitely see the potential for huge burst, especially if you combo with it well, but it's come at the cost of losing the intended spammable for magDK (and the only good spammable for SnB magDK, to make matters worse), only to gain a more gimmicky version of frags or Grim Focus.

Losing a spammable doesn't matter against squishy players, because a solid Chains+Engulfing+Embers+Whip combo would drop most squishy players, but what about tankier players? You need a spammable to soften them up for burst, and most players are tanky in PVP. Using Molten Whip as a spammable works, but you're wasting any stacks you could have used for burst, which is a problem considering Molten Whip requires 3 GCD's to fully set up a burst window.

And that's the main reason why I'm sticking with Flame Lash. Molten can dish out more damage, but Flame Lash is just more reliable, because it is guaranteed that if you can Fossilize a target and land a single Lash against them, your next Lash will be a Power Lash proc, will deal more damage, and there's minimal setup you need to do for it (your combo could be Fossilize+Whip+Leap+Lash, and the Fossilize will almost guarantee the Leap will land, so the setup isn't just to amp up Lash, unlike Molten). The heal is just a bonus, IMO.

To help remedy it, one of two things need to happen, IMO. Either they need to introduce another spammable and give us the bar space to have Molten off to the side, like NB's would with Grim Focus or Sorc's would with frags, or they need to introduce some condition to the Molten proc, so you can use it as a spammable without wasting the stacks. Not sure what the condition should be (part of the reason why I feel it's poorly designed, the current design just doesn't lend itself to conditions well), maybe rework the stack bonuses so the first two only give passive weapon/spell damage, the third gives the extra damage to Molten, and only have the stacks consumed if all 3 are worked up. That way, I can leave Molten at 2/3 stacks, use it as a spammable a few times, then generate the third stack, and use it as burst after that.

Until then, I'm sticking with Flame Lash.

JumpmanLane · June 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

I just don't think it's a well designed skill, in fact I think it's rather poorly designed. I've tried it, I can definitely see the potential for huge burst, especially if you combo with it well, but it's come at the cost of losing the intended spammable for magDK (and the only good spammable for SnB magDK, to make matters worse), only to gain a more gimmicky version of frags or Grim Focus.

Losing a spammable doesn't matter against squishy players, because a solid Chains+Engulfing+Embers+Whip combo would drop most squishy players, but what about tankier players? You need a spammable to soften them up for burst, and most players are tanky in PVP. Using Molten Whip as a spammable works, but you're wasting any stacks you could have used for burst, which is a problem considering Molten Whip requires 3 GCD's to fully set up a burst window.

And that's the main reason why I'm sticking with Flame Lash. Molten can dish out more damage, but Flame Lash is just more reliable, because it is guaranteed that if you can Fossilize a target and land a single Lash against them, your next Lash will be a Power Lash proc, will deal more damage, and there's minimal setup you need to do for it (your combo could be Fossilize+Whip+Leap+Lash, and the Fossilize will almost guarantee the Leap will land, so the setup isn't just to amp up Lash, unlike Molten). The heal is just a bonus, IMO.

To help remedy it, one of two things need to happen, IMO. Either they need to introduce another spammable and give us the bar space to have Molten off to the side, like NB's would with Grim Focus or Sorc's would with frags, or they need to introduce some condition to the Molten proc, so you can use it as a spammable without wasting the stacks. Not sure what the condition should be (part of the reason why I feel it's poorly designed, the current design just doesn't lend itself to conditions well), maybe rework the stack bonuses so the first two only give passive weapon/spell damage, the third gives the extra damage to Molten, and only have the stacks consumed if all 3 are worked up. That way, I can leave Molten at 2/3 stacks, use it as a spammable a few times, then generate the third stack, and use it as burst after that.

Until then, I'm sticking with Flame Lash.

^This! His explanation on why to run flame lash over molten. His description of how to run flame lash in particular. It’s how you PLAY MagDk. Doing silly, gimmicky setups to land a molten against a dangerous opponent (tanky, skilled,etc) is just poor, poor play.

You could get by with this sort of play against squishes, zerging. However, molten is gonna be a hinderace 1v1 against skilled players and 1vX against anybody. You’re better off with the heals.

Vildebill · June 2019

Agree with above speakers. Molten Whip looked good on paper for PvE (where I guess the buff was intended to be used) but sucked rotations wise, but instead became pretty bursty in PvP but requires you to play your MagDK in a non-satisfactory way.

The new Molten Whip is extremely badly implemented IMO.

Trancestor · June 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

You’re only missing that no one on the combat team pvps on a MagDk at a high level and you’d be better off running flame lash.

Molten is designed to “put whip on par with” whatever and is not a skill added to do so in a way you actually PLAY MagDk.

Do they pvp on a high lvl on any class? Do they pvp at all?

Checkmath · June 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

You’re only missing that no one on the combat team pvps on a MagDk at a high level and you’d be better off running flame lash.

Molten is designed to “put whip on par with” whatever and is not a skill added to do so in a way you actually PLAY MagDk.

Do they pvp on a high lvl on any class? Do they pvp at all?

I guess Gilliam takes the spot there as best pvper among the devs (can not say for sure tough).

JumpmanLane · June 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

You’re only missing that no one on the combat team pvps on a MagDk at a high level and you’d be better off running flame lash.

Molten is designed to “put whip on par with” whatever and is not a skill added to do so in a way you actually PLAY MagDk.

Do they pvp on a high lvl on any class? Do they pvp at all?

I’ve heard tell they do. (PvP, albeit not on a HIGH level lol) I’ve run across Gilliam twice. First he got mopped because he seemed to think line of sighting meant running in complete circles around a tree and ran straight into a whip.

The second time I saw him he was “small manning” with 12 people bowtarding on a NB. Hmmm...

Checkmath wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

So, i am eager to get started with my DK for elsweyr. Molten Whip is soo much damage on paper. Just hopped on and checked the tooltips. One fully procced molten, is the same damage as BOTH the Flame Whip and Lash proc. As in you get the same damage of the 2GCD attacks in just one GCD. Without having checked the exact numbers, it seems to be on par with the NB Spectral Bow, and thereby most ultimates... And this is just the actual molten whip hit - not accounting for the extra damage to already running DoTs from the 375 base wp/sp.

I am going to pair it with doylemish on a stam/hybrid DK, for an easy 10k nuke in no cp.

So why am i not seeing more DK’s running this? I know the heal is missed dearly. But the extra damage looks huge. Am i missing anything?

You’re only missing that no one on the combat team pvps on a MagDk at a high level and you’d be better off running flame lash.

Molten is designed to “put whip on par with” whatever and is not a skill added to do so in a way you actually PLAY MagDk.

Do they pvp on a high lvl on any class? Do they pvp at all?

I guess Gilliam takes the spot there as best pvper among the devs (can not say for sure tough).

That ain’t saying much...

raasdal · June 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

I just don't think it's a well designed skill, in fact I think it's rather poorly designed. I've tried it, I can definitely see the potential for huge burst, especially if you combo with it well, but it's come at the cost of losing the intended spammable for magDK (and the only good spammable for SnB magDK, to make matters worse), only to gain a more gimmicky version of frags or Grim Focus.

Losing a spammable doesn't matter against squishy players, because a solid Chains+Engulfing+Embers+Whip combo would drop most squishy players, but what about tankier players? You need a spammable to soften them up for burst, and most players are tanky in PVP. Using Molten Whip as a spammable works, but you're wasting any stacks you could have used for burst, which is a problem considering Molten Whip requires 3 GCD's to fully set up a burst window.

And that's the main reason why I'm sticking with Flame Lash. Molten can dish out more damage, but Flame Lash is just more reliable, because it is guaranteed that if you can Fossilize a target and land a single Lash against them, your next Lash will be a Power Lash proc, will deal more damage, and there's minimal setup you need to do for it (your combo could be Fossilize+Whip+Leap+Lash, and the Fossilize will almost guarantee the Leap will land, so the setup isn't just to amp up Lash, unlike Molten). The heal is just a bonus, IMO.

To help remedy it, one of two things need to happen, IMO. Either they need to introduce another spammable and give us the bar space to have Molten off to the side, like NB's would with Grim Focus or Sorc's would with frags, or they need to introduce some condition to the Molten proc, so you can use it as a spammable without wasting the stacks. Not sure what the condition should be (part of the reason why I feel it's poorly designed, the current design just doesn't lend itself to conditions well), maybe rework the stack bonuses so the first two only give passive weapon/spell damage, the third gives the extra damage to Molten, and only have the stacks consumed if all 3 are worked up. That way, I can leave Molten at 2/3 stacks, use it as a spammable a few times, then generate the third stack, and use it as burst after that.

Until then, I'm sticking with Flame Lash.

^This! His explanation on why to run flame lash over molten. His description of how to run flame lash in particular. It’s how you PLAY MagDk. Doing silly, gimmicky setups to land a molten against a dangerous opponent (tanky, skilled,etc) is just poor, poor play.

You could get by with this sort of play against squishes, zerging. However, molten is gonna be a hinderace 1v1 against skilled players and 1vX against anybody. You’re better off with the heals.

Interesting. I feel like molten should fit the DK playstyle just as easily as lash, and not be gimmicky at all.

I mean; It is a 5 sec buff. You dont need to do ANYTHING to get the buff running fully. A super regular meta combo for any mag DK is Engulfing - Embers - Fossizile - Whip.. Before this combo all you need to have done is cast chains or cauterize/oblivion 5 secs before. Odds are this will be the case naturally 9/10 times. I do not see any need to change any rotation in order to use molten over lash. In fact, molten is not requiring a CC. So after the main combo, you can quickly do a engulfing - embers - molten to get a finishing proc. On flame lash, if you dont get the kill, you have to wait for next CC.

What specific changes to your build / combo did you need to make to use molten, that made it feel gimmicky and difficult to land?

Really need to check this out myself.

raasdal · June 2019

Does anyone have footage of builds using molten or links to build vids using it?

BlackMadara · June 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

I just don't think it's a well designed skill, in fact I think it's rather poorly designed. I've tried it, I can definitely see the potential for huge burst, especially if you combo with it well, but it's come at the cost of losing the intended spammable for magDK (and the only good spammable for SnB magDK, to make matters worse), only to gain a more gimmicky version of frags or Grim Focus.

Losing a spammable doesn't matter against squishy players, because a solid Chains+Engulfing+Embers+Whip combo would drop most squishy players, but what about tankier players? You need a spammable to soften them up for burst, and most players are tanky in PVP. Using Molten Whip as a spammable works, but you're wasting any stacks you could have used for burst, which is a problem considering Molten Whip requires 3 GCD's to fully set up a burst window.

And that's the main reason why I'm sticking with Flame Lash. Molten can dish out more damage, but Flame Lash is just more reliable, because it is guaranteed that if you can Fossilize a target and land a single Lash against them, your next Lash will be a Power Lash proc, will deal more damage, and there's minimal setup you need to do for it (your combo could be Fossilize+Whip+Leap+Lash, and the Fossilize will almost guarantee the Leap will land, so the setup isn't just to amp up Lash, unlike Molten). The heal is just a bonus, IMO.

To help remedy it, one of two things need to happen, IMO. Either they need to introduce another spammable and give us the bar space to have Molten off to the side, like NB's would with Grim Focus or Sorc's would with frags, or they need to introduce some condition to the Molten proc, so you can use it as a spammable without wasting the stacks. Not sure what the condition should be (part of the reason why I feel it's poorly designed, the current design just doesn't lend itself to conditions well), maybe rework the stack bonuses so the first two only give passive weapon/spell damage, the third gives the extra damage to Molten, and only have the stacks consumed if all 3 are worked up. That way, I can leave Molten at 2/3 stacks, use it as a spammable a few times, then generate the third stack, and use it as burst after that.

Until then, I'm sticking with Flame Lash.

You can still use Molten as a spammable. Their is no difference between Molten and Flame in that aspect. Casting one Ardent skill brings Molten's damage higher than a Power Lash proc.

The Fossilize - Leap - Stacked Molten - Molten combo does more damage than the Fossilize - Lash - Leap - Power Lash combo.

Of course running Flame makes it easier to just rotate through empowered combos. You can set DoTs and get 2 Power Lashes before they fall off (10s Burning Embers and Engulfing Flames, and 6s CC immunity.)

You would have to awkwardly early reset DoTs and cast either cast chains or inferno morphs to get a fully stacked Molten in that same amount of time. This would lead to less overall DoT damage due to the new delay in DoTs ticking. Without attempting to proc another stacked Molten, you would still do about 4% more damage over this 10s period spamming Molten in between DoTs than using Flame Lash (Set DoTs - Fossilize - Stacked Molten/Flame - Molten/Power Lash - Spam until CC again and repeat, calculated in Excel, a very hypothetical situation).

Running Flame Lash in that scenario would net slightly less damage and 2 powerful heals. I never really spam Whip either way. I have always tried to set up burst combos and Molten has magnified that.

Overall, I see Molten Whip vs Flame Lash as two viable options that require separate play styles. More consistent damage with epic heal or more erratic, high burst damage. Most mDKs are used to the former, so playing with Molten would require a play style shift that may be uncomfortable.

Vlad9425 · July 2019

It is actually insane how hard it hits. Not to mention the fact that you will likely be caught in a fossilise before you get hit with it by which time most of your health is gone.