rustle911 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

How is the use of this feature by a premade group of four, upseting for people that were not in the group? Why be upset about someone else using a harmless feature that is availlable to everyone?

Because the premade group of four is exploiting. This wasnt how the daily random dungeons were meant to be used.

The extra rewards are for doing a random dungeon. The rewards are for the risk - maybe you get an easy dungeon, maybe a hard one.

Even the premade who agrees to it is taking the "random" out of the daily random dungeon by porting to whichever dungeon they want.

Essentially, the premade gets the extra rewards of a "Random" dungeon with none of the risk since they'll just port to their choice of specific dungeon...and that's not intended, obviously.

I'm not a fan of exploits, even if they "arent harming anyone". Which, obviously, they were only benefitting the premade - and that's part of the problem. They get extra rewards when they aren't doing the random content they queued up for. Now, they have to actually do the Random dungeon or take the leave penalty, just like we all did before the exploit became common knowledge. And what exactly is a premade's problem with doing their Random Dungeon as intended, hmm?

I would agree with you if the random normal was in the slightest difficult to complete and if the rewards gained from its completion were worthwile. But that's not the case.
Also, I can guarantee that all of those who concider this to be an exploit at some point were queued to a random dungeon they couldn't or didn't want to complete and immediately left the group and spent their "no queue" penalty time complaining about dlc dungeons, random groups etc.
So, you might concider it an exploit. I am calling it a quality of life improvement.

"Quality of life improvement", huh?

"I get to skip the harder dungeon I can't/don't want to do, and get the rewards as if I did it, without the penalty for leaving it."

Yeah...that's a real QOL inprovement right there. Get rewards for doing less work than intended. Heck, get rewards for content you can't do!

IMO, the excuses people have for using this exploit are pathetic.

It was more convenient and more rewarding to use this exploit. That's not a QOL improvement. That's people getting used to cheating their way to rewards and quick completions.

You should probably double check the definition of “quality of life improvement”. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t include “let’s keep doing things the hard way when there is an easier path that leads to the same place”. Being more convenient and or more rewarding is exactly what makes it an improvement to quality of life.

That easier path that led to the same place easier dungeon that netted you the same rewards was unintended, an exploit, and cheating to get rewards by doing content other than the random dungeon you queued for.

Maybe you think cheating and exploiting = a QOL improvement.

I do not. I think its a cheat and an exploit. So we're going to have to disagree there.

I mean...are we gonna argue that sniping or caltroping the vAS boss to death was a QOL improvement? Easier path to the same place!

Or how about DK chains used to bypass Cyrodiil keep walls (which, yes, ZOS has said is an exploit)? Easier path to the same place! QOL improvement!

Nope. Cheats and exploits are not QOL improvements.




Again, I'm a little surprised that so many players are willing to embrace an obvious exploit if it makes things a little easier for them...but I supppse I shouldnt be. I've had students literally copy-paste their papers from Wikipedia, so I supppse the urge to justify "It made my life easier (in the short term)" is pretty strong. Whereas the obvious correct route is either put in the effort to write a paper or take your bad grade on whatever you turn in without copying...or Learn2Play the dungeon you get or take the leave penalty and try again. But long term thinking isnt a strength of my middle schoolers (they can't really help it), and unfortunately it seems a lot of gamers will justify cheating if it nets them rewards, judging by this and various trial exploits.

Justifying exploiting is just an excuse for not putting the time and effort in. "I don't want to do this as intended for X reason so its okay that I'm cheating my way to extra rewards."

Bottom line: If you think X reason justifies using an exploit...we're going to disagree, and there's not much more to discuss.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

How is the use of this feature by a premade group of four, upseting for people that were not in the group? Why be upset about someone else using a harmless feature that is availlable to everyone?

Because the premade group of four is exploiting. This wasnt how the daily random dungeons were meant to be used.

The extra rewards are for doing a random dungeon. The rewards are for the risk - maybe you get an easy dungeon, maybe a hard one.

Even the premade who agrees to it is taking the "random" out of the daily random dungeon by porting to whichever dungeon they want.

Essentially, the premade gets the extra rewards of a "Random" dungeon with none of the risk since they'll just port to their choice of specific dungeon...and that's not intended, obviously.

I'm not a fan of exploits, even if they "arent harming anyone". Which, obviously, they were only benefitting the premade - and that's part of the problem. They get extra rewards when they aren't doing the random content they queued up for. Now, they have to actually do the Random dungeon or take the leave penalty, just like we all did before the exploit became common knowledge. And what exactly is a premade's problem with doing their Random Dungeon as intended, hmm?

I would agree with you if the random normal was in the slightest difficult to complete and if the rewards gained from its completion were worthwile. But that's not the case.
Also, I can guarantee that all of those who concider this to be an exploit at some point were queued to a random dungeon they couldn't or didn't want to complete and immediately left the group and spent their "no queue" penalty time complaining about dlc dungeons, random groups etc.
So, you might concider it an exploit. I am calling it a quality of life improvement.

"Quality of life improvement", huh?

"I get to skip the harder dungeon I can't/don't want to do, and get the rewards as if I did it, without the penalty for leaving it."

Yeah...that's a real QOL inprovement right there. Get rewards for doing less work than intended. Heck, get rewards for content you can't do!

IMO, the excuses people have for using this exploit are pathetic.

It was more convenient and more rewarding to use this exploit. That's not a QOL improvement. That's people getting used to cheating their way to rewards and quick completions.

Ok, what about people buying skyshard packs instead of collecting them themselves?

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

How is the use of this feature by a premade group of four, upseting for people that were not in the group? Why be upset about someone else using a harmless feature that is availlable to everyone?

Because the premade group of four is exploiting. This wasnt how the daily random dungeons were meant to be used.

The extra rewards are for doing a random dungeon. The rewards are for the risk - maybe you get an easy dungeon, maybe a hard one.

Even the premade who agrees to it is taking the "random" out of the daily random dungeon by porting to whichever dungeon they want.

Essentially, the premade gets the extra rewards of a "Random" dungeon with none of the risk since they'll just port to their choice of specific dungeon...and that's not intended, obviously.

I'm not a fan of exploits, even if they "arent harming anyone". Which, obviously, they were only benefitting the premade - and that's part of the problem. They get extra rewards when they aren't doing the random content they queued up for. Now, they have to actually do the Random dungeon or take the leave penalty, just like we all did before the exploit became common knowledge. And what exactly is a premade's problem with doing their Random Dungeon as intended, hmm?

I would agree with you if the random normal was in the slightest difficult to complete and if the rewards gained from its completion were worthwile. But that's not the case.
Also, I can guarantee that all of those who concider this to be an exploit at some point were queued to a random dungeon they couldn't or didn't want to complete and immediately left the group and spent their "no queue" penalty time complaining about dlc dungeons, random groups etc.
So, you might concider it an exploit. I am calling it a quality of life improvement.

"Quality of life improvement", huh?

"I get to skip the harder dungeon I can't/don't want to do, and get the rewards as if I did it, without the penalty for leaving it."

Yeah...that's a real QOL inprovement right there. Get rewards for doing less work than intended. Heck, get rewards for content you can't do!

IMO, the excuses people have for using this exploit are pathetic.

It was more convenient and more rewarding to use this exploit. That's not a QOL improvement. That's people getting used to cheating their way to rewards and quick completions.

Ok, what about people buying skyshard packs instead of collecting them themselves?

If people were somehow exploiting an unintended mechanic to gain skyshards this comparison would make sense. Since that is not the case and since ZOS has put the requirement that you had to previously aquire the skyshards before you can buy them for another character it makes even less sense.

ZOS makes the terms. They get to decide what is intended and what is an exploit. Everyone agreed to that in the TOS. It is really that simple. ZOS saw people exploiting an unintended mechanic and chose to stop it. If they had embraced it that would be a different story and it would be acceptable. ZOS owns the world and makes the rules. We just play in it.

And what if zos decided that random dungeon jump was not an exploit. Would that still be your position? Would you agree with them?

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

How is the use of this feature by a premade group of four, upseting for people that were not in the group? Why be upset about someone else using a harmless feature that is availlable to everyone?

Because the premade group of four is exploiting. This wasnt how the daily random dungeons were meant to be used.

The extra rewards are for doing a random dungeon. The rewards are for the risk - maybe you get an easy dungeon, maybe a hard one.

Even the premade who agrees to it is taking the "random" out of the daily random dungeon by porting to whichever dungeon they want.

Essentially, the premade gets the extra rewards of a "Random" dungeon with none of the risk since they'll just port to their choice of specific dungeon...and that's not intended, obviously.

I'm not a fan of exploits, even if they "arent harming anyone". Which, obviously, they were only benefitting the premade - and that's part of the problem. They get extra rewards when they aren't doing the random content they queued up for. Now, they have to actually do the Random dungeon or take the leave penalty, just like we all did before the exploit became common knowledge. And what exactly is a premade's problem with doing their Random Dungeon as intended, hmm?

I would agree with you if the random normal was in the slightest difficult to complete and if the rewards gained from its completion were worthwile. But that's not the case.
Also, I can guarantee that all of those who concider this to be an exploit at some point were queued to a random dungeon they couldn't or didn't want to complete and immediately left the group and spent their "no queue" penalty time complaining about dlc dungeons, random groups etc.
So, you might concider it an exploit. I am calling it a quality of life improvement.

"Quality of life improvement", huh?

"I get to skip the harder dungeon I can't/don't want to do, and get the rewards as if I did it, without the penalty for leaving it."

Yeah...that's a real QOL inprovement right there. Get rewards for doing less work than intended. Heck, get rewards for content you can't do!

IMO, the excuses people have for using this exploit are pathetic.

It was more convenient and more rewarding to use this exploit. That's not a QOL improvement. That's people getting used to cheating their way to rewards and quick completions.

Ok, what about people buying skyshard packs instead of collecting them themselves?

If people were somehow exploiting an unintended mechanic to gain skyshards this comparison would make sense. Since that is not the case and since ZOS has put the requirement that you had to previously aquire the skyshards before you can buy them for another character it makes even less sense.

ZOS makes the terms. They get to decide what is intended and what is an exploit. Everyone agreed to that in the TOS. It is really that simple. ZOS saw people exploiting an unintended mechanic and chose to stop it. If they had embraced it that would be a different story and it would be acceptable. ZOS owns the world and makes the rules. We just play in it.

And what if zos decided that random dungeon jump was not an exploit. Would that still be your position? Would you agree with them?

Yeah. They choose what's intended and what is an exploit. They make all the rules.

I don't always agree with their decisions. For example DKs leaping on keep walls was cool and I liked it, but they determined it was an exploit and I have to live with that.

I still think choosing your random dungeon is kind of stupid and doesn't make any sense. It isn't a random dungeon if you pick the one you want to do. If they decided to allow it, I would understand why people would use the new feature to avoid dungeons they don't want or to double dip for random + pledge. I'd likely even do it myself to save time if that is what the rest of the PUG wanted to do.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

How is the use of this feature by a premade group of four, upseting for people that were not in the group? Why be upset about someone else using a harmless feature that is availlable to everyone?

Because the premade group of four is exploiting. This wasnt how the daily random dungeons were meant to be used.

The extra rewards are for doing a random dungeon. The rewards are for the risk - maybe you get an easy dungeon, maybe a hard one.

Even the premade who agrees to it is taking the "random" out of the daily random dungeon by porting to whichever dungeon they want.

Essentially, the premade gets the extra rewards of a "Random" dungeon with none of the risk since they'll just port to their choice of specific dungeon...and that's not intended, obviously.

I'm not a fan of exploits, even if they "arent harming anyone". Which, obviously, they were only benefitting the premade - and that's part of the problem. They get extra rewards when they aren't doing the random content they queued up for. Now, they have to actually do the Random dungeon or take the leave penalty, just like we all did before the exploit became common knowledge. And what exactly is a premade's problem with doing their Random Dungeon as intended, hmm?

I would agree with you if the random normal was in the slightest difficult to complete and if the rewards gained from its completion were worthwile. But that's not the case.
Also, I can guarantee that all of those who concider this to be an exploit at some point were queued to a random dungeon they couldn't or didn't want to complete and immediately left the group and spent their "no queue" penalty time complaining about dlc dungeons, random groups etc.
So, you might concider it an exploit. I am calling it a quality of life improvement.

"Quality of life improvement", huh?

"I get to skip the harder dungeon I can't/don't want to do, and get the rewards as if I did it, without the penalty for leaving it."

Yeah...that's a real QOL inprovement right there. Get rewards for doing less work than intended. Heck, get rewards for content you can't do!

IMO, the excuses people have for using this exploit are pathetic.

It was more convenient and more rewarding to use this exploit. That's not a QOL improvement. That's people getting used to cheating their way to rewards and quick completions.

Ok, what about people buying skyshard packs instead of collecting them themselves?

If people were somehow exploiting an unintended mechanic to gain skyshards this comparison would make sense. Since that is not the case and since ZOS has put the requirement that you had to previously aquire the skyshards before you can buy them for another character it makes even less sense.

ZOS makes the terms. They get to decide what is intended and what is an exploit. Everyone agreed to that in the TOS. It is really that simple. ZOS saw people exploiting an unintended mechanic and chose to stop it. If they had embraced it that would be a different story and it would be acceptable. ZOS owns the world and makes the rules. We just play in it.

And what if zos decided that random dungeon jump was not an exploit. Would that still be your position? Would you agree with them?

Yeah. They choose what's intended and what is an exploit. They make all the rules.

I don't always agree with their decisions. For example DKs leaping on keep walls was cool and I liked it, but they determined it was an exploit and I have to live with that.

I still think choosing your random dungeon is kind of stupid and doesn't make any sense. It isn't a random dungeon if you pick the one you want to do. If they decided to allow it, I would understand why people would use the new feature to avoid dungeons they don't want or to double dip for random + pledge. I'd likely even do it myself to save time if that is what the rest of the PUG wanted to do.

I would be on the same page if completing a random dungeon meant something. But it doesn't. I gain nothing from completing them but experience which is usefull only when I am leveling a character. And then I would queue with a premade group because I wouldn't want to waste my ambrosia.
Also since you mentioned the dk leap. I would also trust zos's decisions on what's right or wrong if they didn't have so meesed up priorities on their "things to fix" list. Was the leap on keep fun? Yes! Was it broken? Yes but so are many other things that remain broken 3 years later. Why prioritize the leap? Because he who yells louder wins.

That's was the problem that ZOS had to solve. It didn't mean anything you specifically, but it did to other people. You may queue as a random and Johnny ESO needed a specific monster helm, gear, or a completion.

Had this not gotten out of hand, regardless of whether or not we agree on the definition of "exploit", ZOS would have kicked the can. It wasn't a problem that needed solving until it started to impact a large number of players. It impacted enough that ZOS acted on it. People have been double dipping for a long time, ZOS ignored it.

Had this been confined to premades and not forced on other players we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

How is the use of this feature by a premade group of four, upseting for people that were not in the group? Why be upset about someone else using a harmless feature that is availlable to everyone?

Because the premade group of four is exploiting. This wasnt how the daily random dungeons were meant to be used.

The extra rewards are for doing a random dungeon. The rewards are for the risk - maybe you get an easy dungeon, maybe a hard one.

Even the premade who agrees to it is taking the "random" out of the daily random dungeon by porting to whichever dungeon they want.

Essentially, the premade gets the extra rewards of a "Random" dungeon with none of the risk since they'll just port to their choice of specific dungeon...and that's not intended, obviously.

I'm not a fan of exploits, even if they "arent harming anyone". Which, obviously, they were only benefitting the premade - and that's part of the problem. They get extra rewards when they aren't doing the random content they queued up for. Now, they have to actually do the Random dungeon or take the leave penalty, just like we all did before the exploit became common knowledge. And what exactly is a premade's problem with doing their Random Dungeon as intended, hmm?

I would agree with you if the random normal was in the slightest difficult to complete and if the rewards gained from its completion were worthwile. But that's not the case.
Also, I can guarantee that all of those who concider this to be an exploit at some point were queued to a random dungeon they couldn't or didn't want to complete and immediately left the group and spent their "no queue" penalty time complaining about dlc dungeons, random groups etc.
So, you might concider it an exploit. I am calling it a quality of life improvement.

"Quality of life improvement", huh?

"I get to skip the harder dungeon I can't/don't want to do, and get the rewards as if I did it, without the penalty for leaving it."

Yeah...that's a real QOL inprovement right there. Get rewards for doing less work than intended. Heck, get rewards for content you can't do!

IMO, the excuses people have for using this exploit are pathetic.

It was more convenient and more rewarding to use this exploit. That's not a QOL improvement. That's people getting used to cheating their way to rewards and quick completions.

Ok, what about people buying skyshard packs instead of collecting them themselves?

For the sake of indulging your example let's compare and contrast an exploit with an actual QOL feature.

Exploit: killing a certain group boss in the Bangkorai public dungeon was granting skill points multiple times. ZOS fixed it and banned abusers.

Intended QOL feature: ability to buy skillpoints by purchasing skyshard packs from the Crown Store

See a difference?

Getting the rewards from a Random dungeon was intended to come from actually doing the random dungeon you queued for, not from swapping to a non-random dungeon and getting the rewards anyway. Duh. That's not a Random dungeon anymore.

I'm not against QOL improvements when ZOS intends them.

But I am against exploiting the game in ways ZOS doesnt intend, and getting random dungeon rewards by skipping to a different non-random dungeon is obviously an unintended exploit which ZoS rightly fixed...which you are defending. All this "I don't trust ZOS' priorities" or "but it made it easier" or "but completing a random dungeon doesnt mean anything" are just excuses to justify using an exploit.

If you want to be sad that you can't exploit to get extra rewards, you do you. But I'm thrilled they fixed an exploit.

It's the same drill as usual.
The pool of people who are queueing for a *specific* dungeon is being filled up with people who queued for a *random* dungeon. Because queueing for a random dungeon is basically like saying "I don't care what dungeon it is"... that's what random means. If I want to play CoA1 for whatever reason and queue for it, I do not want to bump into a bunch of people, who for "quality of life's" sake decide to port to another dungeon, leaving me with the mere choice of leaving the group and accepting the timer, or run with them and play a dungon I never wanted to play in the first place.
Now, I'm sure the people who care for their (and of course only their!) QOL so much will come up with the idea to separate the queues. However, doing so would require some effort and - as we have learned - those precious ressources should rather be put into fixing lags and other important things and not into creating a work around for the exploiters.

I'm glad they fixed this. Not gonna lie, I did go along with some people doing it but at times it would annoy me. Sometimes I queue for a specific dungeon and you didn't. Why should I travel to Fungal Grotto 1 for you (because you're bad) after being queued for hours? Grow a pair and stop running to Fungal Grotto 1.

Glurin wrote: »

rustle911 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

I think it should still exist but only after a 10 min cooldown, that way if people get a horrible dungeon they wipe on constantly as their random daily, they can port to another one.

Instant port though? No.

I disagree. You queued for a random dungeon. You got a random dungeon. Being unable to complete it is no excuse. In fact it's part of the game.

The random dungeon queue is not another daily login reward.

But the random bg queue is? The whole point of the random queue is so that people who aren’t in guilds can more easily access a group with which to do group content. If you can’t complete it then the point is lost. Regardless of whether or not my team wins in a random bg, I get rewards. Why should a random dungeon, which takes longer to complete and has significantly longer queue times for certain roles be any different?

No, the whole point of the random queue is to increase the size of the player pool that can be drawn from for any dungeon queue. Guilds have nothing to do with it. Neither do battlegrounds for that matter.

Queuing for a random dungeon and then leaving whatever one you get to go complete the easiest and quickest one is just treating the random queue as a daily login reward. You're defeating the purpose of the queue because you are no longer a reliable source for group members for any queue other than that one dungeon. That's not something you should be rewarded for.

It is a daily login reward. And look at my original post, it wasn’t to go complete the easiest, quickest dungeon. It was for the purpose of completing two objectives at the same time. The reason I put so much stock into that is that the queue system itself is broken. You say it’s to increase the player pool, yet queue times are ridiculous for half of a group. So much so that people will queue in a role that they aren’t suited for. On top of that, the queue decides to drop the 3 dps and healer into Ruins of Mazzatun or Moon Hunter Keep. Now one or all are forced to quit, wait for a cooldown, and then requeue for another ridiculous amount of time.

1. The dungeon pools are not equal. Not all players have access to the same number of dungeons as others. This means that those who do have access, are now forced to spend significantly more time completing a dungeon that they filled a spot in than those that aren’t, for the same reward.
2. DPS players who don’t want to wait for a dungeon will queue as a tank or healer even though they aren’t. While shorter easier dungeons can be readily completed by four dps or 3 dps and a tank or healer, there are a decent enough number that actually have mechanics that require people be in those roles for the group to survive to completion.
3. The one mechanism that was available for players to bypass the problems created by items one and two has now been removed with no relief mechanism to replace it. This isn’t going to stop The people who do item two because they were already in f-it mode to begin with. Item will be a problem as long as there aren’t separate queues for dlc and non-dlc dungeons.

So then my only recourse is to never queue for random dungeons. This means that the player pool is not increased, but decreased, meaning that items one and two will only continue to get worse. And my comment on BGs was that if the random dungeon isn’t a daily login reward, why is the random BG? I only have to queue and last 15 minutes to get a reward. Be on a team that places first or second to get the random rewards. Even on a PvE dps the odds are that I’ll complete that well before completing a random dlc dungeon that I got dropped into as a solo dps if I’m able to complete it at all.