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How can magcros be this bad? how can magicka builds in general be THIS BAD THIS LONG?
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Illuvatarr✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos
Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:
Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k
Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".
Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.
It is.
Stam is literally better at everything except group aoe. Thats dumb and not balanced.0 -
People are saying "kill bosses have fun" I have some serious questions for you. Have you done veteran hard modes? Are you ok knowing that a sub par spec means you are essentially being carried? Are you aware that bosses are getting more and more difficult and even fairly casual trial guilds are requesting dps parses?
Why do you defend ZoS for producing an unpolished product? What is wrong with requesting balance from them? Why do you attack such a simple request? Why is is so bad to expect magcro to be comparable dps to stamcro? If I went this long with glaring under performance in my job I'd be fired. Why do people come to ZoS defense over requesting improvement to a product we continue to pay for? LEGITIMATE complaints.Edited by berzerkdethb14_ESO1 on June 21, 2019 8:35PM1 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
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I’m all for complaints and wanting balance. What I’m not for is blatant exaggerations that make something seem much, much worse then it actually is. All that does is spread misinformation then you get a ton of people who do not know what they’re talking about giving incorrect feedback.berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »People are saying "kill bosses have fun" I have some serious questions for you. Have you done veteran hard modes? Are you ok knowing that a sub par spec means you are essentially being carried? Are you aware that bosses are getting more and more difficult and even fairly casual trial guilds are requesting dps parses?
Why do you defend ZoS for producing an unpolished product? What is wrong with requesting balance from them? Why do you attack such a simple request? Why is is so bad to expect magcro to be comparable dps to stamcro? If I went this long with glaring under performance in my job I'd be fired. Why do people come to ZoS defense over requesting improvement to a product we continue to pay for? LEGITIMATE complaints.
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Blinkin8r✭✭✭✭✭For Destro bombing Mechanical Acuity, VD, and Ballorghs are amazing. Gotta run Lover though and one sharpened sword. Works great for tether too.II Blinkin II
Xbox 1 NA
"A man without the sauce is lost, but the same man can become lost in the sauce."0 -
I’m all for complaints and wanting balance. What I’m not for is blatant exaggerations that make something seem much, much worse then it actually is. All that does is spread misinformation then you get a ton of people who do not know what they’re talking about giving incorrect feedback.berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »People are saying "kill bosses have fun" I have some serious questions for you. Have you done veteran hard modes? Are you ok knowing that a sub par spec means you are essentially being carried? Are you aware that bosses are getting more and more difficult and even fairly casual trial guilds are requesting dps parses?
Why do you defend ZoS for producing an unpolished product? What is wrong with requesting balance from them? Why do you attack such a simple request? Why is is so bad to expect magcro to be comparable dps to stamcro? If I went this long with glaring under performance in my job I'd be fired. Why do people come to ZoS defense over requesting improvement to a product we continue to pay for? LEGITIMATE complaints.
What misinformation? The only thing anyone has to prove against what has been said here is one guy parsing on the public test server a month ago. Live data, parses, live parses, and actual off-the-dummy parsing show that magden and magcro is god awful and take the same amout of effort to be "ok" as stam builds (particularly stamcro) need to be top tier amazing veteran hard mode GG.
With barely passable starting gear and screwing up the rotation a little I am pulling more as a stamcro. With countless hours played, all gold, and min maxed gear on the magcro i'm pulling far far less. I am not the only one who sees this.Edited by berzerkdethb14_ESO1 on June 21, 2019 8:50PM4 -
CambionDaemon✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Magplars can argue with statement that magicka is underperforming. Just look some logs from vCR. Top groups take as much magplars as possible.
Magblades and petsorcs are kinda OK. Good group fill if you are going trial where stamina is unfavored and you can't take enough magplars.
MagDK is underperforming. The spec feels good with very interesting rotation so only numerical buffs are needed. But ZoS is feared to make any significant buff to magDKs after 1.6. magDK godmode (another evidence that PvE and PvP should be balanced separately).
Magwarden and magcro seem to me more like unfinished specs rather than underperforming. Both are lacking something and numerical buffs wouldn't solve the problem.
And Non-Pet Sorc is around MagDen and MagCro.0 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »People are saying "kill bosses have fun" I have some serious questions for you. Have you done veteran hard modes? Are you ok knowing that a sub par spec means you are essentially being carried? Are you aware that bosses are getting more and more difficult and even fairly casual trial guilds are requesting dps parses?
Lolwut ? Any content can be completed with any class. And playing stamcro do not grant you max dps automatically.
How many people can actually get max numbers for any spec ?2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »People are saying "kill bosses have fun" I have some serious questions for you. Have you done veteran hard modes? Are you ok knowing that a sub par spec means you are essentially being carried? Are you aware that bosses are getting more and more difficult and even fairly casual trial guilds are requesting dps parses?
Why do you defend ZoS for producing an unpolished product? What is wrong with requesting balance from them? Why do you attack such a simple request? Why is is so bad to expect magcro to be comparable dps to stamcro? If I went this long with glaring under performance in my job I'd be fired. Why do people come to ZoS defense over requesting improvement to a product we continue to pay for? LEGITIMATE complaints.
People are silent because majority is pleased with changes. All stam is now good, and min-maxers received ton of dps in terms of stamcro. Magplar and petsorc are easier to play then other classes and also both provide additional source of synergy as well as best dps numbers. Magdens were already bad, magcros are mostly RP-ers choice, since from PTS it was well-known stamcro rules and magcro is bugged, and magblades are hard and unrewarding to play after so many nerfs, so people happily switched for them back to templars and sorcs. MagDK is not best, but in okay position and was notably buffed in comparison to U21.
So only minority who stick to magdens, chose magcros, or continue to sweat on magblades are unhappy.
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ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos
Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:
Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k
Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".
Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.
I really wish people would stop linking these parses unless they're able to reproduce them. These parses have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in trial instances. I guess if you don't play a mag necro in trials you don't really understand how unrealistic that parse is, but since I actually play the class, I can tell you that it's extremely unrealistic because the parse is in melee range. If you don't understand why this is a problem, go make a mag necro on PTS and try to reproduce that parse from 20m range.
There is plenty of real world data out there on esologs.
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=99
https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95
Yes, a magicka necro on top of a dummy/in melee range with major vulnerability may be able to come close to the parses of other magicka classes. Give major vuln to the rest of your raid and don't cast a blastbones every third gcd because you're not playing in melee range 100% of the time on your magicka character (great class design btw) and you're going to end up behind. Then don't cast siphon because it doesn't even hit the *** bosses and you're going to be even further behind.
It's pretty *** bad.
Nonsense.
First, you can't reliably reproduce most of those parses from 20m for a variety of reasons. All of the magicka parses are in melee range using Rearming Trap and Zaan.
Second, the melee range requirement is not exclusive to magnecros. Stamnecros suffer from the same thing in bow/bow setups. MagDKs are of course a melee build. Magblades have to be in melee range for Soul Harvest.
Third, you actually can stay in melee range in the majority of the content in the game. vAS is the only real exception outside of some other individual fights or mechanics. There's no reason you can't stay in melee range on a magnecro the majority of the time in vSS, vMoL, vHoF, vAA, vHRC, vSO, and most of vCR.
And Syphon doesn't work in vSS on stamnecros, either. It gets slotted for the 3% damage done bonus and the execute crit bonus but it's useless other than that in boss fights. And this is far from the only thing broken in vSS boss fights that really skews the numbers in there ... Alkosh, Zaan, pet targeting, Grothdarr ... a bunch of stuff doesn't work right on the dumb dragon hitboxes. Watch a bunch of Skeletal Archers or a Twilight or a Greater Storm Atro stacked *right on top of a dragon* turn around and start focusing Flame Atros or Storm Atros that are 10m away.
And also ... you're linking vSS HM data that literally includes 14 magnecro parses as if that says anything useful. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that no one is logging them in Sunspire HM ... because the people clearing Sunspire HM are top groups gravitating towards optimal group comps. You could use that same data to demonstrate that stamwardens are near the bottom of the the stam tier list and no one uses them, but that's obviously ridiculous. Everyone who cares enough to optimize is pushing stamnecro groups in that raid because Pestilent Colossus is ridiculously OP and stamnecros are generally overtuned.
And also, it's worth noting that the range limitation on Blastbones isn't really inherently part of the "class design" and I don't think it's a poor reflection of such. The skill worked fine from range in v5.0.0; the delay on its leap was introduced in v5.0.2 because of PvP whining.
man i don't even know where to start with this. which hardmode trials have you cleared on your mag necro?
What's that got to do with it? I literally have done nothing but vSS HM 5+ nights a week on a stamnecro this patch; all of the groups I run with have been running all-stam vSS comps, aside from some magplars/magsorcs while people were getting their stamnecros ready to raid.
Which HM Trials have you failed to clear because you were on a magnecro?
This is the way raiding works. If one build does a bit more DPS than others or provides some marginal utility increase, all groups are going to gravitate towards using that build. That's how we got an 8 petsorc DD meta long ago around Homestead, or an 8 magblade meta in mini trials for ages, or an 8 stamDK meta in Morrowind, or an 8 stamblade meta in Summerset, and now an 8 stamnecro meta in Elsweyr. That's just how it goes. Unless DPS is balanced across all builds within the margin for error (which we all know isn't really possible), eventually the top groups are going to min-max to a monoclass DPS group comp, offload the other class-specific stuff to their support (hello NB main tanks, hello sorc healers) and everyone else who "seriously" raids is going to end up following suit. It has always been like that and it will always be like that.
What does any of this have to do with the topic? I don't see how what the grand total of two or three score pushing groups in the entire world has to do with class balance at all. DPS can be more balanced than it is, and DPS being more balanced than it is (like, say, mag necro not being so far behind petsorc) will help out groups who are aiming for hardmode clears or other achievements who aren't going to run 8 stamnecros, which is 99.9% of all groups. Insisting that it's just fine and that people should play x class if they want to be competitive is a really lazy way to dismiss certain classes/specs underperforming.
There are plenty of groups who have cleared hardmode content or gotten speedrun/nodaeth achievements with a sub optimal comp. The way you suggest raiding "works" isn't actually how raiding works for the vast majority of players, including those going for achievements. I know you're going to suggest that everything is just fine because these groups did it without a meta comp but again, that's a very lazy way of dismissing complaints from people who want to be at least a little competitive with other magicka dps. Right now for magicka dps there's a very high ceiling that mag necro cannot hope to reach even in the best conditions and there's nothing wrong with wanting that to change.Edited by ecru on June 21, 2019 10:42PMGryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer0 -
_Salty_✭✭✭✭✭Yeah mag necro is definitely not good. I put in 110% of the effort and get like 80% of the dps. Siphon still doesn't hit bosses in Sunspire and ZOS has been silent since the release of Elsweyr.
Of course they are silent. They are too busy patting each other on the back for "killing it" to actually respond to us peasants. Radio silence should be expected.
They only admit mistakes once every 3 months. Then they half arsed fix them, then proceed to make more mistakes in the process.Psn l---Salty---l
Patiently waiting to make a Stankcromancer.0