How can magcros be this bad? how can magicka builds in general be THIS BAD THIS LONG?

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · June 2019

Magicka necros are parsing WAAAY below other classes. The stamina version does, literally, about 50% or more damage.

How does a class get released this way? I could remain patient and hope for a buff, but then I look at magden and think that it's probably never going to happen.

I came back to the game over the excitement of the class I have been wanting to play forever. It feels great, it's fun, and it's super unique. Why allow it to wither away into obscurity? I understand that range builds should do a little bit less dps (even if Zaan is needed to "compete" which forces you into melee range) because they can continue to dps while being forced out of range, but 50%?

Why have magicka builds in general gone so long under performing? What about those who wish to compete as a caster?

mairwen85 · June 2019

LITERALLY

For perspective, how much are you parsing?

Do you play both?

Which sets have you equipped on either?

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · June 2019

40Kish with very good gear. 60kish on stamcro with worse gear. (non iron atronach parse, elemental drain, balls, and shards)

Seems to be a recurring theme among my trial guilds.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · June 2019

So, yes, literally. Not figuratively literally, literally literally. Literally.

david_m_18b16_ESO · June 2019

Actualy I dont see how any class can be bad for that long in a game with barely no vertical progression. Magicka should have been balanced a year ago.

ecru · June 2019

Yeah mag necro is definitely not good. I put in 110% of the effort and get like 80% of the dps. Siphon still doesn't hit bosses in Sunspire and ZOS has been silent since the release of Elsweyr.

mairwen85 · June 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

So, yes, literally. Not figuratively literally, literally literally. Literally.

I get that - - was just pressing for actual numbers instead of anecdotal fluff.

There's always been a disparity, and it's always been more effort magicka side to compete. Mag skills are high cost for low yield, slower but bigger impact numbers. Stam has always been faster succession with lower numbers, low cost, high yield.

The primary defense is that stam are melee range, so higher damage is a result of sacrificed survivability.

So, yeah, perspective is what I wanted from you, because I notice equally that the main difference is effort to achieve the upper dps tier.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · June 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

LITERALLY

For perspective, how much are you parsing?

Do you play both?

Which sets have you equipped on either?

40k mag, 60k+ stam

yes

Zaan, mother's sorrow, spell strategist, maelstrom fire (all gold, all divines, 3 blood thirsty, shadow mundus) magicka

Stormfist, hunding's rage, briarheart, no maelstrom bow (all epic with bad traits on the monster set, no bloodthirsty)

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · June 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

So, yes, literally. Not figuratively literally, literally literally. Literally.

I get that - - was just pressing for actual numbers instead of anecdotal fluff.

There's always been a disparity, and it's always been more effort magicka side to compete. Mag skills are high cost for low yield, slower but bigger impact numbers. Stam has always been faster succession with lower numbers, low cost, high yield.

The primary defense is that stam are melee range, so higher damage is a result of sacrificed survivability.

So, yeah, perspective is what I wanted from you, because I notice equally that the main difference is effort to achieve the upper dps tier.

I get that, but then there is Zaan if you want to compete--forcing magicka users into melee range anyway.

Also, i've put FAR more effort into the magicka than the stam. If i put equal effort it would be even more embarrassing.

mairwen85 · June 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

So, yes, literally. Not figuratively literally, literally literally. Literally.

I get that - - was just pressing for actual numbers instead of anecdotal fluff.

There's always been a disparity, and it's always been more effort magicka side to compete. Mag skills are high cost for low yield, slower but bigger impact numbers. Stam has always been faster succession with lower numbers, low cost, high yield.

The primary defense is that stam are melee range, so higher damage is a result of sacrificed survivability.

So, yeah, perspective is what I wanted from you, because I notice equally that the main difference is effort to achieve the upper dps tier.

I get that, but then there is Zaan if you want to compete--forcing magicka users into melee range anyway.

Also, i've put FAR more effort into the magicka than the stam. If i put equal effort it would be even more embarrassing.

That's my point exactly.

gamerguy757 · June 2019

The main issue in seeing is DoTs. Stamina can place 3 dots from one hit (poison, bleed, and twin blade/blunt).
Magicka doesn’t have access to these dots except flame.

LiquidPony · June 2019

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · June 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

This was filmed in PTS 5.0.4

Stop trying to defend zos for this. It's a VERY common complaint. It's an anomaly that is being discussed over multiple trial guilds.

I haven't seen this spread any where else.

LiquidPony · June 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

This was filmed in PTS 5.0.4

Stop trying to defend zos for this. It's a VERY common complaint. It's an anomaly that is being discussed over multiple trial guilds.

I haven't seen this spread any where else.

Can you detail the differences between v5.0.4 and Live that would significantly change the numbers?

Which "multiple trial guilds" are these?

Maybe you should post some videos of your 40k magnecro parse that you've been working so hard on and we can see what the issue really is.

MLGProPlayer · June 2019

Magden has been out for over 2 years now and hasn't been buffed once. It's still the worst class in the game. Don't get your hopes up for a buff to magcro.

ecru · June 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

I really wish people would stop linking these parses unless they're able to reproduce them. These parses have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in trial instances. I guess if you don't play a mag necro in trials you don't really understand how unrealistic that parse is, but since I actually play the class, I can tell you that it's extremely unrealistic because the parse is in melee range. If you don't understand why this is a problem, go make a mag necro on PTS and try to reproduce that parse from 20m range.

There is plenty of real world data out there on esologs.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=99

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95

Yes, a magicka necro on top of a dummy/in melee range with major vulnerability may be able to come close to the parses of other magicka classes. Give major vuln to the rest of your raid and don't cast a blastbones every third gcd because you're not playing in melee range 100% of the time on your magicka character (great class design btw) and you're going to end up behind. Then don't cast siphon because it doesn't even hit the *** bosses and you're going to be even further behind.

It's pretty *** bad.

DUTCH_REAPER · June 2019

Dang that’s depressing. Imma take my 32k dps magblade and sit in the corner...cuz I can’t get any higher. Le sigh 😔

LiquidPony · June 2019

ecru wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

I really wish people would stop linking these parses unless they're able to reproduce them. These parses have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in trial instances. I guess if you don't play a mag necro in trials you don't really understand how unrealistic that parse is, but since I actually play the class, I can tell you that it's extremely unrealistic because the parse is in melee range. If you don't understand why this is a problem, go make a mag necro on PTS and try to reproduce that parse from 20m range.

There is plenty of real world data out there on esologs.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=99

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95

Yes, a magicka necro on top of a dummy/in melee range with major vulnerability may be able to come close to the parses of other magicka classes. Give major vuln to the rest of your raid and don't cast a blastbones every third gcd because you're not playing in melee range 100% of the time on your magicka character (great class design btw) and you're going to end up behind. Then don't cast siphon because it doesn't even hit the *** bosses and you're going to be even further behind.

It's pretty *** bad.

Nonsense.

First, you can't reliably reproduce most of those parses from 20m for a variety of reasons. All of the magicka parses are in melee range using Rearming Trap and Zaan.

Second, the melee range requirement is not exclusive to magnecros. Stamnecros suffer from the same thing in bow/bow setups. MagDKs are of course a melee build. Magblades have to be in melee range for Soul Harvest.

Third, you actually can stay in melee range in the majority of the content in the game. vAS is the only real exception outside of some other individual fights or mechanics. There's no reason you can't stay in melee range on a magnecro the majority of the time in vSS, vMoL, vHoF, vAA, vHRC, vSO, and most of vCR.

And Syphon doesn't work in vSS on stamnecros, either. It gets slotted for the 3% damage done bonus and the execute crit bonus but it's useless other than that in boss fights. And this is far from the only thing broken in vSS boss fights that really skews the numbers in there ... Alkosh, Zaan, pet targeting, Grothdarr ... a bunch of stuff doesn't work right on the dumb dragon hitboxes. Watch a bunch of Skeletal Archers or a Twilight or a Greater Storm Atro stacked *right on top of a dragon* turn around and start focusing Flame Atros or Storm Atros that are 10m away.

And also ... you're linking vSS HM data that literally includes 14 magnecro parses as if that says anything useful. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that no one is logging them in Sunspire HM ... because the people clearing Sunspire HM are top groups gravitating towards optimal group comps. You could use that same data to demonstrate that stamwardens are near the bottom of the the stam tier list and no one uses them, but that's obviously ridiculous. Everyone who cares enough to optimize is pushing stamnecro groups in that raid because Pestilent Colossus is ridiculously OP and stamnecros are generally overtuned.

And also, it's worth noting that the range limitation on Blastbones isn't really inherently part of the "class design" and I don't think it's a poor reflection of such. The skill worked fine from range in v5.0.0; the delay on its leap was introduced in v5.0.2 because of PvP whining.

Seraphayel · June 2019

gamerguy757 wrote: »

The main issue in seeing is DoTs. Stamina can place 3 dots from one hit (poison, bleed, and twin blade/blunt).
Magicka doesn’t have access to these dots except flame.

Magicka doesn’t even have good DoTs outside of classes. We can consider Wall of Elements some kind of DoT which is good but besides that? Soultrap? Crap. Destructive Touch DoT? Crap. Scalding Rune? Crap. Burning? Crap (for Non-DKs). Just compare Burning (via Flame Staff) to Bleeds - there you have one of the issues. Not to say Poison Injection is an execute DoT.

templesus · June 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

I really wish people would stop linking these parses unless they're able to reproduce them. These parses have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in trial instances. I guess if you don't play a mag necro in trials you don't really understand how unrealistic that parse is, but since I actually play the class, I can tell you that it's extremely unrealistic because the parse is in melee range. If you don't understand why this is a problem, go make a mag necro on PTS and try to reproduce that parse from 20m range.

There is plenty of real world data out there on esologs.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=99

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95

Yes, a magicka necro on top of a dummy/in melee range with major vulnerability may be able to come close to the parses of other magicka classes. Give major vuln to the rest of your raid and don't cast a blastbones every third gcd because you're not playing in melee range 100% of the time on your magicka character (great class design btw) and you're going to end up behind. Then don't cast siphon because it doesn't even hit the *** bosses and you're going to be even further behind.

It's pretty *** bad.

Nonsense.

First, you can't reliably reproduce most of those parses from 20m for a variety of reasons. All of the magicka parses are in melee range using Rearming Trap and Zaan.

Second, the melee range requirement is not exclusive to magnecros. Stamnecros suffer from the same thing in bow/bow setups. MagDKs are of course a melee build. Magblades have to be in melee range for Soul Harvest.

Third, you actually can stay in melee range in the majority of the content in the game. vAS is the only real exception outside of some other individual fights or mechanics. There's no reason you can't stay in melee range on a magnecro the majority of the time in vSS, vMoL, vHoF, vAA, vHRC, vSO, and most of vCR.

And Syphon doesn't work in vSS on stamnecros, either. It gets slotted for the 3% damage done bonus and the execute crit bonus but it's useless other than that in boss fights. And this is far from the only thing broken in vSS boss fights that really skews the numbers in there ... Alkosh, Zaan, pet targeting, Grothdarr ... a bunch of stuff doesn't work right on the dumb dragon hitboxes. Watch a bunch of Skeletal Archers or a Twilight or a Greater Storm Atro stacked *right on top of a dragon* turn around and start focusing Flame Atros or Storm Atros that are 10m away.

And also ... you're linking vSS HM data that literally includes 14 magnecro parses as if that says anything useful. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that no one is logging them in Sunspire HM ... because the people clearing Sunspire HM are top groups gravitating towards optimal group comps. You could use that same data to demonstrate that stamwardens are near the bottom of the the stam tier list and no one uses them, but that's obviously ridiculous. Everyone who cares enough to optimize is pushing stamnecro groups in that raid because Pestilent Colossus is ridiculously OP and stamnecros are generally overtuned.

And also, it's worth noting that the range limitation on Blastbones isn't really inherently part of the "class design" and I don't think it's a poor reflection of such. The skill worked fine from range in v5.0.0; the delay on its leap was introduced in v5.0.2 because of PvP whining.

This person here is a prime example of the small percentage of players on the forums who actually know what they’re talking about.

Seriously, the fact that OP said he’s pulling 50% less dps LITERALLY on magcro then stamcro and the entire post wasn’t disregarded off rip is why we need invite only forums.

AbysmalGhul · June 2019

I really don't mind the lower dps output...BUT I really mind not having the ability to keep my dps going with bugged and laggy skills

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · June 2019

templesus wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

I really wish people would stop linking these parses unless they're able to reproduce them. These parses have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in trial instances. I guess if you don't play a mag necro in trials you don't really understand how unrealistic that parse is, but since I actually play the class, I can tell you that it's extremely unrealistic because the parse is in melee range. If you don't understand why this is a problem, go make a mag necro on PTS and try to reproduce that parse from 20m range.

There is plenty of real world data out there on esologs.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=99

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95

Yes, a magicka necro on top of a dummy/in melee range with major vulnerability may be able to come close to the parses of other magicka classes. Give major vuln to the rest of your raid and don't cast a blastbones every third gcd because you're not playing in melee range 100% of the time on your magicka character (great class design btw) and you're going to end up behind. Then don't cast siphon because it doesn't even hit the *** bosses and you're going to be even further behind.

It's pretty *** bad.

Nonsense.

First, you can't reliably reproduce most of those parses from 20m for a variety of reasons. All of the magicka parses are in melee range using Rearming Trap and Zaan.

Second, the melee range requirement is not exclusive to magnecros. Stamnecros suffer from the same thing in bow/bow setups. MagDKs are of course a melee build. Magblades have to be in melee range for Soul Harvest.

Third, you actually can stay in melee range in the majority of the content in the game. vAS is the only real exception outside of some other individual fights or mechanics. There's no reason you can't stay in melee range on a magnecro the majority of the time in vSS, vMoL, vHoF, vAA, vHRC, vSO, and most of vCR.

And Syphon doesn't work in vSS on stamnecros, either. It gets slotted for the 3% damage done bonus and the execute crit bonus but it's useless other than that in boss fights. And this is far from the only thing broken in vSS boss fights that really skews the numbers in there ... Alkosh, Zaan, pet targeting, Grothdarr ... a bunch of stuff doesn't work right on the dumb dragon hitboxes. Watch a bunch of Skeletal Archers or a Twilight or a Greater Storm Atro stacked *right on top of a dragon* turn around and start focusing Flame Atros or Storm Atros that are 10m away.

And also ... you're linking vSS HM data that literally includes 14 magnecro parses as if that says anything useful. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that no one is logging them in Sunspire HM ... because the people clearing Sunspire HM are top groups gravitating towards optimal group comps. You could use that same data to demonstrate that stamwardens are near the bottom of the the stam tier list and no one uses them, but that's obviously ridiculous. Everyone who cares enough to optimize is pushing stamnecro groups in that raid because Pestilent Colossus is ridiculously OP and stamnecros are generally overtuned.

And also, it's worth noting that the range limitation on Blastbones isn't really inherently part of the "class design" and I don't think it's a poor reflection of such. The skill worked fine from range in v5.0.0; the delay on its leap was introduced in v5.0.2 because of PvP whining.

This person here is a prime example of the small percentage of players on the forums who actually know what they’re talking about.

Seriously, the fact that OP said he’s pulling 50% less dps LITERALLY on magcro then stamcro and the entire post wasn’t disregarded off rip is why we need invite only forums.

Because it actually literally is. Why don't you try to go parse both? have you? or are you relying on the same broken PTS BS that everyone else is?

People like you are why nothing ever gets done to fix these issues. You give ZoS a pass on pretty much anything as long as your preferred style is fine.

Seriously-- actually parse them in similar gear. It's about 50% You are all arguing that it isn't from one youtuber who parsed them on the PTS . There is a VERY good reason nobody is parsing magcros, even outside of hardmode sunspire. because they are horrible.

Massacre_Wurm · June 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

I really wish people would stop linking these parses unless they're able to reproduce them. These parses have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in trial instances. I guess if you don't play a mag necro in trials you don't really understand how unrealistic that parse is, but since I actually play the class, I can tell you that it's extremely unrealistic because the parse is in melee range. If you don't understand why this is a problem, go make a mag necro on PTS and try to reproduce that parse from 20m range.

There is plenty of real world data out there on esologs.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=99

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95

Yes, a magicka necro on top of a dummy/in melee range with major vulnerability may be able to come close to the parses of other magicka classes. Give major vuln to the rest of your raid and don't cast a blastbones every third gcd because you're not playing in melee range 100% of the time on your magicka character (great class design btw) and you're going to end up behind. Then don't cast siphon because it doesn't even hit the *** bosses and you're going to be even further behind.

It's pretty *** bad.

Nonsense.

First, you can't reliably reproduce most of those parses from 20m for a variety of reasons. All of the magicka parses are in melee range using Rearming Trap and Zaan.

Second, the melee range requirement is not exclusive to magnecros. Stamnecros suffer from the same thing in bow/bow setups. MagDKs are of course a melee build. Magblades have to be in melee range for Soul Harvest.

Third, you actually can stay in melee range in the majority of the content in the game. vAS is the only real exception outside of some other individual fights or mechanics. There's no reason you can't stay in melee range on a magnecro the majority of the time in vSS, vMoL, vHoF, vAA, vHRC, vSO, and most of vCR.

And Syphon doesn't work in vSS on stamnecros, either. It gets slotted for the 3% damage done bonus and the execute crit bonus but it's useless other than that in boss fights. And this is far from the only thing broken in vSS boss fights that really skews the numbers in there ... Alkosh, Zaan, pet targeting, Grothdarr ... a bunch of stuff doesn't work right on the dumb dragon hitboxes. Watch a bunch of Skeletal Archers or a Twilight or a Greater Storm Atro stacked *right on top of a dragon* turn around and start focusing Flame Atros or Storm Atros that are 10m away.

And also ... you're linking vSS HM data that literally includes 14 magnecro parses as if that says anything useful. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that no one is logging them in Sunspire HM ... because the people clearing Sunspire HM are top groups gravitating towards optimal group comps. You could use that same data to demonstrate that stamwardens are near the bottom of the the stam tier list and no one uses them, but that's obviously ridiculous. Everyone who cares enough to optimize is pushing stamnecro groups in that raid because Pestilent Colossus is ridiculously OP and stamnecros are generally overtuned.

And also, it's worth noting that the range limitation on Blastbones isn't really inherently part of the "class design" and I don't think it's a poor reflection of such. The skill worked fine from range in v5.0.0; the delay on its leap was introduced in v5.0.2 because of PvP whining.

This person here is a prime example of the small percentage of players on the forums who actually know what they’re talking about.

Seriously, the fact that OP said he’s pulling 50% less dps LITERALLY on magcro then stamcro and the entire post wasn’t disregarded off rip is why we need invite only forums.

Because it actually literally is. Why don't you try to go parse both? have you? or are you relying on the same broken PTS BS that everyone else is?

People like you are why nothing ever gets done to fix these issues. You give ZoS a pass on pretty much anything as long as your preferred style is fine.

Seriously-- actually parse them in similar gear. It's about 50% You are all arguing that it isn't from one youtuber who parsed them on the PTS . There is a VERY good reason nobody is parsing magcros, even outside of hardmode sunspire. because they are horrible.

So how about your videos ? Or at least screenshots ?
Or all we will get is your lame trolling ?

ecru · June 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

I really wish people would stop linking these parses unless they're able to reproduce them. These parses have absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in trial instances. I guess if you don't play a mag necro in trials you don't really understand how unrealistic that parse is, but since I actually play the class, I can tell you that it's extremely unrealistic because the parse is in melee range. If you don't understand why this is a problem, go make a mag necro on PTS and try to reproduce that parse from 20m range.

There is plenty of real world data out there on esologs.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=99

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#metric=dps&aggregate=amount&dataset=95

Yes, a magicka necro on top of a dummy/in melee range with major vulnerability may be able to come close to the parses of other magicka classes. Give major vuln to the rest of your raid and don't cast a blastbones every third gcd because you're not playing in melee range 100% of the time on your magicka character (great class design btw) and you're going to end up behind. Then don't cast siphon because it doesn't even hit the *** bosses and you're going to be even further behind.

It's pretty *** bad.

Nonsense.

First, you can't reliably reproduce most of those parses from 20m for a variety of reasons. All of the magicka parses are in melee range using Rearming Trap and Zaan.

Second, the melee range requirement is not exclusive to magnecros. Stamnecros suffer from the same thing in bow/bow setups. MagDKs are of course a melee build. Magblades have to be in melee range for Soul Harvest.

Third, you actually can stay in melee range in the majority of the content in the game. vAS is the only real exception outside of some other individual fights or mechanics. There's no reason you can't stay in melee range on a magnecro the majority of the time in vSS, vMoL, vHoF, vAA, vHRC, vSO, and most of vCR.

And Syphon doesn't work in vSS on stamnecros, either. It gets slotted for the 3% damage done bonus and the execute crit bonus but it's useless other than that in boss fights. And this is far from the only thing broken in vSS boss fights that really skews the numbers in there ... Alkosh, Zaan, pet targeting, Grothdarr ... a bunch of stuff doesn't work right on the dumb dragon hitboxes. Watch a bunch of Skeletal Archers or a Twilight or a Greater Storm Atro stacked *right on top of a dragon* turn around and start focusing Flame Atros or Storm Atros that are 10m away.

And also ... you're linking vSS HM data that literally includes 14 magnecro parses as if that says anything useful. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that no one is logging them in Sunspire HM ... because the people clearing Sunspire HM are top groups gravitating towards optimal group comps. You could use that same data to demonstrate that stamwardens are near the bottom of the the stam tier list and no one uses them, but that's obviously ridiculous. Everyone who cares enough to optimize is pushing stamnecro groups in that raid because Pestilent Colossus is ridiculously OP and stamnecros are generally overtuned.

And also, it's worth noting that the range limitation on Blastbones isn't really inherently part of the "class design" and I don't think it's a poor reflection of such. The skill worked fine from range in v5.0.0; the delay on its leap was introduced in v5.0.2 because of PvP whining.

man i don't even know where to start with this. which hardmode trials have you cleared on your mag necro?

ezio45 · June 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Of course there's some variance, other people who specialize in a given build may be able to push them a bit higher, most people aren't as good as Liko and will parse lower, but the range is:

Magden: 86k
Magblade: 87k
MagDK: 89k
Magnecro: 89k
Magplar: 90k
Stamplar: 90k
Magsorc (1 pet): 91k
Magsorc (2 pet): 93k
StamDK: 94k
Stamblade: 95k
Stamsorc: 96k
Stamden: 97k
Stamnecro: 102k

Stamnecro is an outlier and probably needs to be tuned down a bit, but aside from that, it's literally steps of 1-2k between each spec. The difference between magnecro and stamnecro is 13k here .. the stamnecro parse is about 15% higher, which is a far cry from "50% more damage".

Stamnecro aside, I don't think mag DPS averaging ~90k and stam DPS averaging ~95k is all that out of whack.

theres not a non pet magsorc parse -_-

ezio45 · June 2019

The current state of mag does suck. dont think we will see an improvement tho. its elder stam online....

Rerum · June 2019

Lol. I see nice jokes here.
Just learn rotation. You definitely not good at it.

Uryel · June 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Look at Liko's collection of raid dummy parses: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

Or rather, don't. People really, REALLY need to stop caring about numbers on a dummy.

That doesn't reflect a real fight. What is your optimum on a static target, that never moves, from which you never dodge any AoE, that never even tries to CC you, etc ? Well, truly, no one should care. The result you get on a dummy should merely be an indication about how you improved since the last time you tried, that's all.

In real combat condition, you need to dodge. Stamina characters will use up their main, damage ressource for that, magicka ones will not, meaning dodging has no effect on a magicka user damage-wise. Barely interrupts their rotation for a split second. Being a glass canon means you may find youself dead more than you should, and the dead's DPS is always zero. And what do you say about a characters whose damage is rather low, but consistent on any number of targets ? Do you test it in the middle of a dozen dummies and add up all the AoE DPS ? Because you should. Or, again, everyone should stop caring about parsing and evaluate actual combat performance.

My main never got anything above 15k on a dummy. never cared for raids that much anyway, and since bosmers lost their stealth I had to gear up even more for that. That makes my combat prowesses even lower. An yet situations where I actually can't win are so rare that I am truly suprised and a bit annoyed when I do die. I have one "consistent Ao damage" character. Her numbers on a dummy are ridiculusly low. Her numbers on a dozen dummies are ridiculously low per dummy, but they add up. And what doesn't show on a dummy is that every attack she does will slightly heal her and / or her allies, making the fight much easier for everyone. How does that parse on a dummy ?

I'm not saying the magicka necro parses are fine. I'm saying no one should care so much about numbers. Also, the magicka necro is pretty much unkillable so long as they have magicka. If you live longer than the enemy, you win. That's not something one should dismiss entirely when evluationg how a class performs.

Hallothiel · June 2019

I love these threads. Doing stupidly high dps but apparently not enough!

Matthew_Galvanus · June 2019

Hallothiel wrote: »

I love these threads. Doing stupidly high dps but apparently not enough!

considering the fact that macro is, on average, doing way less than all other DD classes atm, there needs to be a change.

Hallothiel · June 2019

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

I love these threads. Doing stupidly high dps but apparently not enough!

considering the fact that macro is, on average, doing way less than all other DD classes atm, there needs to be a change.

I meant in the sense that when I started playing back in the day, no-one was anywhere near these kind of figures for any dps - but now it’s ‘not good enough’.