WoW says they messed up building classes around a dps rotation rather then class feel. hmmmmm ESO?

Wing · June 2019

*preface, ZOS calls unique skills or skills that deviate from standardization "rule breakers", yup*

I don't play wow, but I do keep up with the industry and noticed that wow essentially said:

"instead of building a class for a feel or giving options that highlighted what it means to *ESO TERMS FOR EVERYONE* to be sorcerer, or be a templar, they instead removed options and just made sure everyone had an easy an comparable ability rotation (dps, etc) flavored to that class (lightning, fire, etc.)

I cannot help but comment after hearing that. . .

that's EXACTLY what is happening to classes in ESO

everything is being designed around test dummy parses, unique gameplay abilities and class options are being removed / nerfed / homogenized.
its all just:
-here is your spamable, it has a stam / magicka morph, its flavored to whatever damage type your class does
-here is your armor buff, it lasts for 15-20 seconds
-here is your aoe attack, it lasts roughly 10 seconds, its flavored to whatever damage type your class does
-here is your self heal, its flavored to your class.

its really disappointing. (funny enough this is really what happened to 4e DnD. everything was *described* as being different but the mechanical benefit to a lot of stuff was the same. that addition was trashed early, and now we have 5e)

ESO has actually gotten ALOT right, and compared to the problems other major MMO's are having have actually designed the game and its system to avoid a lot of those problems (im holding my breath on the CP rework though)
but this is something its gotten very wrong over time, classes have become less interesting and less important as the game goes on.

soon in ESO class will only determine the color of your abilities, and everyone will be the same.

very sad.

EDIT: wanted to point out that the great "class overhaul" of 2019 was actually a broad homogenization of mechanics. unique abilities were removed, all dots were standardized in cost, duration, damage, etc. expedition was standardized in cost, duration, etc.

in fact ESO has gone so far as to label unique skill or skills and effects that deviate from this as "RULE BREAKERS!" that's right, unique skills are now rule breakers.

zaria · June 2019

Yes still miss the overload bar, so fun to have execute on healer.

Massacre_Wurm · June 2019

I love threads like this. And mmo commutity demanding classes being unique , universal and competitive at the same time.

andreasv · June 2019

Class identity has been ignored especially for the last two additions. Both, Warden and Necro, are intended to be a Jack of All Trades. I assume it's easier to sell that way, but I prefer to choose a class and then focus on a specific role and try to be good in it, instead of having the option to cover other roles take away from excelling in one.

Trandaner · June 2019

Cries in stamsorc

Wing · June 2019

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

I love threads like this. And mmo commutity demanding classes being unique , universal and competitive at the same time.

games like path of exile and diablo 3 (arpg's to be fair yes) are able to have classes and specs that play COMPLETLY DIFFERENT in feel and execution, but at an overall power level are nearly identical.

for instance in daiblo 3 the main gauge of power is how high a class / spec can go in greater rifts. they all end up within 10 rift levels of each other. (usually 110's-120s) multiple specs, multiple builds, multiple classes, and yet all remain viable.

even a game like LOL (where the past like 30 champions have been stupid complex and dumb with gimmick mechanics) a lot of the OG champions are still relevant to this day. but that's more because it works on a balance wheel system rather then straight balance.

the difference between straight balance is 2 things are even, where as a balance wheel is everything is OP but blatantly shut down by something else. for example you one shot everyone at range, but then someone else has an ability that makes them immune to range damage, etc, and the wheel continues.

ESO originally had more of a balance wheel style system in place in relation to class abilities. as much as they claimed that everyone could do anything, at launch the OG 4 classes had very clear roles (and thus somewhat persist to this day) and had specific features the others did not, things like cloak, wings, streak, breath of life, extended ritual, etc.

because of this there were many complaints (as is tradition in a balance wheel system, by design, something will be op to someone "paper is OP!, scissors is fine, -rock") over time abilities got nerfed / removed. the new classes are good examples of this, as they are both jack-of-all-trades classes. and yet, templar is still considered the best healer, DK the best tank, etc. because that's how those classes were originally designed.

Darkenarlol · June 2019

that smelly piece of dead rotting turd (wow) is still breathing talking?

the only balance was presented in that game

was one speck of the druid class (it called "balance")

even if we have some homogenisation

in last patches classes still have flavor

damn even if i wanted to discuss this topic

the accent on wow's trash talk just turns me

into inconstructive paranoid toxic mode =D

Skwor · June 2019

Basically when you ignore diversity in classes you end up with this.

Zen has bent over backwards to avoid the mmo trinity of healer/tank/dps class role and is homogenizing the classes. That makes gameplay boring as ***!

Even worse most group encounters only needs DPS, no tank or healer.

We really need to embrace class diversity and let the roles diverge along with creating encounters requiring all the roles. To really make it shine we also need the support role with content aligned as well.

Nyladreas · June 2019

Darkenarlol wrote: »

that smelly piece of dead rotting turd (wow) is still breathing talking?

the only balance was presented in that game

was one speck of the druid class (it called "balance")

even if we have some homogenisation

in last patches classes still have flavor

damn even if i wanted to discuss this topic

the accent on wow's trash talk just turns me

into inconstructive paranoid toxic mode =D

I agree. Wow really has to just die and dissappear already. From a legendary game to a worthless bag of crap.

As for the OP, I actually agree. It's not anywhere near us yet, although I can definitely see it starting to slowly emerge.

What perhaps makes it not so obvious is how ESO handles builds and sets. But it's definitely starting to take its place.

Everyone should be careful and pay close attention to changes that homogenize our classes further.

Anhedonie · June 2019

Well, ESO devs don't take critisism very well and don't admit mistakes, actually. So don't expect the same.

But I feel like they are trying to diverge. They just keep failing sadly.

ezio45 · June 2019

couldnt agree more

wishlist14 · June 2019

Wow died and is no more...just bones and dust. Most of its denizens packed up,and braved the long ardurous and dangerous trek to our Tamriel shores. The ones you call wow refugees now live among us.

All rpg mmos suffer from the same fate in the end.....it is inevitable...the pvp vrs pve nerf tog-o-war. Until a game developer is willing to keep pvp and pve as two separate entities then I never see there being hope for rpgmmos to move forward and succeed long term.

Roymachine · June 2019

Trandaner wrote: »

Cries in stamsorc

But Stamsorc is actually the one stam class that feels unique even though it has the least stam morphs.

Nyladreas · June 2019

wishlist14 wrote: »

All game developers tend to cater to the min maxers and yet they are the most unsatified and whiny bunch.....they are the ones that cry evertime zos try to balance things then everyone starts getting paranoid about the class they love to play so off they go to play the least 'nerfed'class...rinse and repeat, rinse and freakin' repeat. God this is getting boring..

Wow died and lthe same thing happened in wow and probably most mmos ...eventual death.

Min maxers and meta chasers should be the last anyone ever listens to.

And don't even let me get started on Elitists. They'll do anything to be the most "OP" just to raise their non existent disgusting ego.

Roymachine · June 2019

Nyladreas wrote: »

I agree. Wow really has to just die and dissappear already. From a legendary game to a worthless bag of crap.

As for the OP, I actually agree. It's not anywhere near us yet, although I can definitely see it starting to slowly emerge.

What perhaps makes it not so obvious is how ESO handles builds and sets. But it's definitely starting to take its place.

Everyone should be careful and pay close attention to changes that homogenize our classes further.

Starting to slowly emerge? It is already upon us. Every class can act as a tank, healer, mag dps, or stam dps as it is.

brandonv516 · June 2019

I was thinking of something like this the other day when I had a DK, Warden, and Necro on my team.

One had fierce dragon scales on his back, another had shards of ice all over with an ice crown to top it, and the last had jagged bones protruding from his back.

It was all pretty cool in terms of giving each class a unique look.

However, they all achieved this look through the same essential buff being applied to their characters.

And if you want to add another class to this homogenization, look no further than the Sorcerer surrounded by a field of lightning.

Then I remember someone asking for NB to get these same buffs attached to one of their skills rather than their class passive.

I for one hope this never happens because, in my opinion, they are light-years ahead of the other classes in terms of a unique playstyle.

Wing · June 2019

brandonv516 wrote: »

I was thinking of something like this the other day when I had a DK, Warden, and Necro on my team.

One had fierce dragon scales on his back, another had shards of ice all over with an ice crown to top it, and the last had jagged bones protruding from his back.

It was all pretty cool in terms of giving each class a unique look.

However, they all achieved this look through the same essential buff being applied to their characters.

And if you want to add another class to this homogenization, look no further than the Sorcerer surrounded by a field of lightning.

Then I remember someone asking for NB to get these same buffs attached to one of their skills rather than their class passive.

I for one hope this never happens because, in my opinion, they are light-years ahead of the other classes in terms of a unique playstyle.

I can agree with that, NB is one of the few classes still maintaining a unique playstyle and has a lot of its unique playstyles still, well see how long it lasts.

MartiniDaniels · June 2019

You're right, but this is not about dummy parses, it's mostly about PVP balancing.

Roymachine · June 2019

Wing wrote: »

I can agree with that, NB is one of the few classes still maintaining a unique playstyle and has a lot of its unique playstyles still, well see how long it lasts.

I personally like the unique healer playstyle of Warden vs Templar.

Turelus · June 2019

This is what happens when people scream about balance and making classes perform closer together.

ZOS is just doing what the large vocal part of the community keeps demanding, that everything be balanced.

mague · June 2019

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

I love threads like this. And mmo commutity demanding classes being unique , universal and competitive at the same time.

Is possible if you want. Once upon a time there have been unkillable templers who needed 10 minutes to kill rat and robes wearing mages who could burn a city with a single finger wiggle while dropping dead when said rat was jumping at them. The templer could not really harm the mage and the mage could not harm the templer. They have been equal and unique. They have been universal enough to do all solo content. Some slow and safe, others fast and riscy.

But the community actually demands the i-win button, the imbalance and just does not have the guts to speak it out open.

Massacre_Wurm · June 2019

If devs give to the players an anique designed tank they will cry about not being able to

brandonv516 wrote: »

I was thinking of something like this the other day when I had a DK, Warden, and Necro on my team.

One had fierce dragon scales on his back, another had shards of ice all over with an ice crown to top it, and the last had jagged bones protruding from his back.

It was all pretty cool in terms of giving each class a unique look.

However, they all achieved this look through the same essential buff being applied to their characters.

And if you want to add another class to this homogenization, look no further than the Sorcerer surrounded by a field of lightning.

Then I remember someone asking for NB to get these same buffs attached to one of their skills rather than their class passive.

I for one hope this never happens because, in my opinion, they are light-years ahead of the other classes in terms of a unique playstyle.

Yea. Its not like people was qqing about DKs QoL skills like chains or talons for ages and demanding somehting like that for any other classes.

Skwor · June 2019

If we had content designed to actually require unique synergies and individual skills of tanks, healers, dps and support this would not be a problem. The devs would then align the class skills accordingly. It really all stems from the encounter content.

Devs need to not be afraid of diverse grouping mechanics, there is nothing wrong with the mmo trinity, it works.

When players can fill unique rolls that are valued by the group we have less concerns about being like some other class. Right now every one wants to be like everyone else becuase this game pretty much is all about dps. A person can not specialise, this removes diversity and creates a generic class instead of a colorful community for combat encounters

VaranisArano · June 2019

Its a little weird in ESO.

Because you've ALSO got a substantial portion of players (or at least, a vocal portion) who want this to play like the singleplayer games, where weapon choice is more impactful than "class".

And the current "you can tank, heal, and DPS on any class, just maybe not quite as well" design philosophy is right at home with that idea.

WolfingHour · June 2019

This is nothing but a knock-on effect of the "I wanna play as I want and what I want is a sorc healer that is competitive" bs that was pushed by the single player, snowflake skyrim crowd.

Unfortunately, the fool's have won.

Devanear · June 2019

Wing wrote: »

*preface, ZOS calls unique skills or skills that deviate from standardization "rule breakers", yup*

I don't play wow, but I do keep up with the industry and noticed that wow essentially said:

"instead of building a class for a feel or giving options that highlighted what it means to *ESO TERMS FOR EVERYONE* to be sorcerer, or be a templar, they instead removed options and just made sure everyone had an easy an comparable ability rotation (dps, etc) flavored to that class (lightning, fire, etc.)

I cannot help but comment after hearing that. . .

that's EXACTLY what is happening to classes in ESO

everything is being designed around test dummy parses, unique gameplay abilities and class options are being removed / nerfed / homogenized.
its all just:
-here is your spamable, it has a stam / magicka morph, its flavored to whatever damage type your class does
-here is your armor buff, it lasts for 15-20 seconds
-here is your aoe attack, it lasts roughly 10 seconds, its flavored to whatever damage type your class does
-here is your self heal, its flavored to your class.

Flavor doesn't have to be just about combat. Even in it's current state, WoW still has a lot more flavor to it's classes than ESO does. Some of it is combat related, but some abilities are just fun additions that complement the fantasy of playing as X.

I'll give you an example, I main a hunter in WoW. There's an item in game that teaches my pet how to fetch, so when I kill an enemy at range, instead of having to walk to the corpse to loot it I can just send my pet and it will loot the corpse for me. That's a hunter thing. No other ranged class can loot corpses at a distance. It doesn't give you any advantage in gameplay, it's not a huge time saver, but it's something only a hunter with a pet can do, because it makes sense for the identity of the class.

Of course the bars on this game are much more limited than in WoW, and so adding non combat abilities might not seem a good idea, but that just means a little more creativity would be required. For example, in WoW only Demon Hunters can double jump. That is a class exclusive ability that doesn't take extra buttons, you just need to press the button to jump twice.

MartiniDaniels · June 2019

WolfingHour wrote: »

This is nothing but a knock-on effect of the "I wanna play as I want and what I want is a sorc healer that is competitive" bs that was pushed by the single player, snowflake skyrim crowd.

Unfortunately, the fool's have won.

Lol wut? I seriously doubt that players who came to ESO from single-player TES games and thus didn't play WoW on regular basis or played it at all, brought all the cancer from WoW with them.
Current homogenization came from well-established min-maxing/exploiting-every-hole refugee crowd.

Hashtag_ · June 2019

Roymachine wrote: »

Trandaner wrote: »

Cries in stamsorc

But Stamsorc is actually the one stam class that feels unique even though it has the least stam morphs.

How does using nothing but weapon abilities feel unique?

Kidgangster101 · June 2019

It is this way because the devs cater to DPS community. I remember a time when DPS was called DD (Damage Dealers) it wasn't about how much dps you did per second, it use to be adequate damage over the course of the fight.

In older games where roles actually mattered, it wasn't about sitting at a parse dummy to see how high a DPS rotation would go, and cry if yours was slightly worse. People enjoyed the thrill of fighting. Each class had specific roles (tank, healer, dd, support) and every role use to have a need to add to the group/raid.

Just look at new sets and sets tanks are supposed to wear. We wear gear that "when we taunt we boost DPS" and "when we use a synergy we debuff mobs to make DPS hit harder". Same can be said about healers in this game. A tank should be someone that needs to wear armor that makes them live longer, meaning all fights in this game should push tanks into wearing hp+ armor or damage reduction armor or something like leeching plate where you get a big heal from wearing the armor. Healers should be about healing more (but we can't have 1 shot mechanics for that, and need better designed fights where people take heavy splash damage)

The way this game is designed sadly it is really DPS/support roles. Until they lower the overall DPS in this game (like skipping past mechanics of boss fights) then people don't need to deviate from this "my DPS is this high can you hit that target dummy harder meta".

Facefister · June 2019

wishlist14 wrote: »

Wow died and is no more...just bones and dust. Most of its denizens packed up,and braved the long ardurous and dangerous trek to our Tamriel shores. The ones you call wow refugees now live among us.

All rpg mmos suffer from the same fate in the end.....it is inevitable...the pvp vrs pve nerf tog-o-war. Until a game developer is willing to keep pvp and pve as two separate entities then I never see there being hope for rpgmmos to move forward and succeed long term.

Where are those WoW refugees? The ones who came are long gone. WoW isn't a "Quest" game, it's an endgame aka Raids and Dungeons game. The majority of the so-called refugees are failed players who couldn't keep up or enter that endcontent.
Class variety in ESO is even lesser than in WoW.
Dungeons and Raids in ESO are primitive in comparison to WoW.
Only crafting and questing is where ESO excels.

Sansoul · June 2019

Facefister wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

Wow died and is no more...just bones and dust. Most of its denizens packed up,and braved the long ardurous and dangerous trek to our Tamriel shores. The ones you call wow refugees now live among us.

All rpg mmos suffer from the same fate in the end.....it is inevitable...the pvp vrs pve nerf tog-o-war. Until a game developer is willing to keep pvp and pve as two separate entities then I never see there being hope for rpgmmos to move forward and succeed long term.

Where are those WoW refugees? The ones who came are long gone. WoW isn't a "Quest" game, it's an endgame aka Raids and Dungeons game. The majority of the so-called refugees are failed players who couldn't keep up or enter that endcontent.
Class variety in ESO is even lesser than in WoW.
Dungeons and Raids in ESO are primitive in comparison to WoW.
Only crafting and questing is where ESO excels.

When WoW classic drops everything will be right again. All the people who are rotating between every other game out there right now will be going back to classic. Even the population on Elysium has exploded in recent months as people are chomping at the bit for wow classic... just wait until classic hits BC and LK, the point in time WoW had the most active subscribers at any given time of any MMO ever. I can't wait for 3.3.5 WoW classic.