Frustrated about Molten Whip

Xvorg · June 2019

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

You do realise that one is a dedicated damage proc, while the other is a spammable?

You realize you are killing NO ONE by just spamming whip right? It’s also now a dedicated damage proc/burst. It’s a hellova buff. And a needed one. If you want to spam it that’s cool and all but if you want to work on that DK burst... here’s your chance.

then explain me how do I put pressure with a mDK?

The class that has no othe spammable
the class that has no range oriented passives
the class that must rely on S/B or (ironically) frost staff to take advantage of blocking
The class that has a 2 extra mts on melee range.

Sure, you can put presure with swallow sould/elemental weapon/force shock from 28 mts away, but as a DK I CAN'T do that. I must go melee. Because the max reach any skill i the AF line has is 22mts and that's DKs gap closer/pull. So explain me, do I use pucture as my main spammable? }

I suggest you to try a mDK before making any uninformed comment, comparing NB to DK, because your cmment just reveal you know nothing about what you are talking about.

(By the way, I also play mageblade, and I have ZERO problems weaving and setting spectral bow while using strife)

Engulfing basically works as a pseudo spammable this patch. I think the new molton whip is fantastic for PvP--it's the PvE application that's problematic.

I forgot about flames, you are right. Problem is taht the skill is not so reliable and to spam one skill on melee, I prefer to use my templar.

Xvorg · June 2019

Insco851 wrote: »

Or don’t worry about max stacks until it’s time to go for the burst. Engulfing/embers are both typical skills slotted.

Engulfing>embers>cc>engulfing>leap>whip

That’s not even much of a change from past combos. 1 extra engulfing? Which could be flames of oblivion also.

I think you have 0 idea about how mDK is played. Let me explain you:

As mDK you need at least 75 points into thaum to get a 10% extra dmg on off balance enemies. That is used on both, molten whip and flame lash.

To take advantage of those extra points, you also need to slot DoT skills and let them do dmg. In the case of Engulfing, it also provides an extra 10% dmg on flame skills, so if you want to take advantage of that debuff, you need to keep embers active.

Also, embers has a very strong heal associated, the more it last, the better the healing

What's the problem? You need also a gap closer and chains is the best option around. And we already have 4 skills, all of them from the very same skill line (AF).

Finally you need to slot one of these 2 skills: CDB (Heal on demand) or Foss. If you want to do more dmg, foss is the way to go. But if you want a better heal, then you should go with CDB.

Any smart DK knows that spamming DoT is a stupid move, even more now than DoT behaviour has been changed. The class is not a power house regarding resource recovery and worst, at least embers is a dodgeable skill.

So your combo is not really possible unles you are going against a potatoe that doesn't know how to kite or cloak or purge.

jaws343 · June 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Or don’t worry about max stacks until it’s time to go for the burst. Engulfing/embers are both typical skills slotted.

Engulfing>embers>cc>engulfing>leap>whip

That’s not even much of a change from past combos. 1 extra engulfing? Which could be flames of oblivion also.

I think you have 0 idea about how mDK is played. Let me explain you:

As mDK you need at least 75 points into thaum to get a 10% extra dmg on off balance enemies. That is used on both, molten whip and flame lash.

To take advantage of those extra points, you also need to slot DoT skills and let them do dmg. In the case of Engulfing, it also provides an extra 10% dmg on flame skills, so if you want to take advantage of that debuff, you need to keep embers active.

Also, embers has a very strong heal associated, the more it last, the better the healing

What's the problem? You need also a gap closer and chains is the best option around. And we already have 4 skills, all of them from the very same skill line (AF).

Finally you need to slot one of these 2 skills: CDB (Heal on demand) or Foss. If you want to do more dmg, foss is the way to go. But if you want a better heal, then you should go with CDB.

Any smart DK knows that spamming DoT is a stupid move, even more now than DoT behaviour has been changed. The class is not a power house regarding resource recovery and worst, at least embers is a dodgeable skill.

So your combo is not really possible unles you are going against a potatoe that doesn't know how to kite or cloak or purge.

IMO you are over thinking the skill needs. You don't need a gap closer. DK has enough damage mitigation and access to the light armor shield to get close to an opponent.

My current front bar setup is: Molten, fossilize, harness, embers, FOO/engulfing (I use this as a flex spot, sometimes I'll back bar FOO or engulfing.)

Back barring a frost staff with WoE also aids in keeping enemies from fleeing effectively if your initial burst doesn't kill or you are facing more than 1 opponent. And yes, they changed the way dots work. But embers is cheap and if you open an encounter by activating FOO, and then hit embers twice in a row, you get the initial damage twice and then you let the dot kick in. Follow that with a fossilize, leap, whip and most enemies are dead. If closing the gap is an issue in a fight, hit FOO 3 times, leap, embers, whip, and most enemies are dead. You barely have to even pay attention to the stack management because even 1 stack on whip is very strong.

Davadin · June 2019

mursie wrote: »

i would be surprised if a stamdk could fit this on the bar passively with the cramped real estate already, and find a way to keep it up using noxious, cauterize, venom claw (which alot of builds don't even have slotted)... and make it worthwhile.

after the pre-reqs of forward momentum and executioner, you typically see cauterize, noxious, and armor buff.

I guess you could fiddle around to try and make this work but it just seems like it would be very inefficient. have you seen stamdks using this passively in pvp to any great effect?

i do.

it's worth unslotting Claw since Nox is a GREAT spammable and can generate it, then u can add the Powerful Chain morph instead of Dizzying/Carve, and still keep Forward Momentum/Rally and Reverse Strike/Executioner.

Insco851 · June 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Or don’t worry about max stacks until it’s time to go for the burst. Engulfing/embers are both typical skills slotted.

Engulfing>embers>cc>engulfing>leap>whip

That’s not even much of a change from past combos. 1 extra engulfing? Which could be flames of oblivion also.

I think you have 0 idea about how mDK is played. Let me explain you:

As mDK you need at least 75 points into thaum to get a 10% extra dmg on off balance enemies. That is used on both, molten whip and flame lash.

To take advantage of those extra points, you also need to slot DoT skills and let them do dmg. In the case of Engulfing, it also provides an extra 10% dmg on flame skills, so if you want to take advantage of that debuff, you need to keep embers active.

Also, embers has a very strong heal associated, the more it last, the better the healing

What's the problem? You need also a gap closer and chains is the best option around. And we already have 4 skills, all of them from the very same skill line (AF).

Finally you need to slot one of these 2 skills: CDB (Heal on demand) or Foss. If you want to do more dmg, foss is the way to go. But if you want a better heal, then you should go with CDB.

Any smart DK knows that spamming DoT is a stupid move, even more now than DoT behaviour has been changed. The class is not a power house regarding resource recovery and worst, at least embers is a dodgeable skill.

So your combo is not really possible unles you are going against a potatoe that doesn't know how to kite or cloak or purge.

Or you could not build for offbalance damage and build for the upfront damage of engulfing (as the spammable)+leap+whip. Burst style mag DK.

I agree on the dot version of DK with flame lash (as the spammable)- that 75 in thaum makes sense.

JumpmanLane · June 2019

This whole mini games thing with molten goes to show ZOS doesn’t know how one ACTUALLY plays MagDk in their game. It’s a good idea to BUFF MagDk...but keep that lol.

I’d rather have the heal from powerlash. My flame lashes hit for what folks are saying their moltens hit for. There are easier ways to build for damage on a MagDk. On and on and on are the reasons I don’t run in.

As for landing a powerlash (or even a molten whip) you’re supposed to be animation canceling those whips or you’re playing MagDk wrong.

In lag what’s the worst thing could happen? Whip block whip block? You blockcasted something?

Besides any celebrated 1vXer will tell you, ya don’t need molten whips damage to kill the lil pugs they seek out to 1vX lol.

pieratsos · June 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

Well this is not quite right tough. Surely you can keep all the stacks by using another spammable and just slot molten whip as a buff. In that case molten whip serves only one purpose of buffing your damage a bit. But molten whip has an additional purpose of aq very hard hitting burst similar to crystal frag or spectral bow. With elemental weapon or crushing shock you will never reach those high numbers as you can reach with a molten whip (molten whip can reach around double amount of damage of the ones you mentioned thanks to the stacks). It is some kind of minigame, where you give something up for a situational incredible skill. The same happened to the nightbladdes grim focus, where you build up mitigation with its stacks, but whe you release it, you lose the mitigation for huge burst damage. same kind of minigame and I guess the devs like those minigames in some way.

You know? I'm tired of minigames regarding DK playing style. There's a minigame just to land a power lash. There's another minigame related to Battle Roar and resource recovery, anoter on Helping Hands and stam recovery, another while using stone giant on a target without CC immunity, and another on using Inhale and another on Inferno. Not to mention the permablocking minigame related to stam recovery on S/B. Now ZoS added 3 other minigames for DKs: Root immunity, new wings and seething fury. And I really believe it is too much.

Could ZoS just simplify some aspects of the class, or they are really too concerned with the trees that they cannot see the forest? The class has gone from fun and entertaining to really tedious and frustrating.

The only one who cannot see the forest its you. Those mini games exist on all classes and they are called restrictions and conditions to get the effectiveness of the skill.

I'm sorry that the "mini game" of casting an earthen heart ability to get stamina back is to complex for you but the game is already simplified enough and dumbed down to stupidity. The next step is literally playing with ur eyes closed.

BlackMadara · June 2019

In pvp the new whip is great. Easiest way to get a fully stacked whip is empowering chains > engulfing flames > burning embers. The increase in root immunity and root cd timer make flame lash less usable imo. If I catch a moment of high ping, and miss my lash on a rooter target, I have to wait a while before having another chance.

For pve, I can see the issue. They did say they wanted to change the static rotation up. Now you can try a few different rotations.

-run a simple rotation, using the buffed big hit whip.

-use engulfing or chains as a spammable, having full fury stacks at all times.

- use another spammable and either use whip only at full stacks or cast an AF ability every 5s to keep full stacks.

Are these choices truly a problem or just such a deviation from what was usual that people are upset?

Insco851 · June 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

In pvp the new whip is great. Easiest way to get a fully stacked whip is empowering chains > engulfing flames > burning embers. The increase in root immunity and root cd timer make flame lash less usable imo. If I catch a moment of high ping, and miss my lash on a rooter target, I have to wait a while before having another chance.

For pve, I can see the issue. They did say they wanted to change the static rotation up. Now you can try a few different rotations.

-run a simple rotation, using the buffed big hit whip.

-use engulfing or chains as a spammable, having full fury stacks at all times.

- use another spammable and either use whip only at full stacks or cast an AF ability every 5s to keep full stacks.

Are these choices truly a problem or just such a deviation from what was usual that people are upset?

Adaptation is difficult for some folks.

JumpmanLane · June 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

In pvp the new whip is great. Easiest way to get a fully stacked whip is empowering chains > engulfing flames > burning embers. The increase in root immunity and root cd timer make flame lash less usable imo. If I catch a moment of high ping, and miss my lash on a rooter target, I have to wait a while before having another chance.

For pve, I can see the issue. They did say they wanted to change the static rotation up. Now you can try a few different rotations.

-run a simple rotation, using the buffed big hit whip.

-use engulfing or chains as a spammable, having full fury stacks at all times.

- use another spammable and either use whip only at full stacks or cast an AF ability every 5s to keep full stacks.

Are these choices truly a problem or just such a deviation from what was usual that people are upset?

You’re supposed to be animation canceling those whips...just saying. Even the molten ones. Lmao.

Unless you’re zerging powerlash is better for the heals. 1v1, 1vX, against a ball Zerg with support and heals you’ll really want the heals. Just saying. I mean who are you fighting and how.

I mean MagDk played at its best is all about managing your buffs and debuffs. Micro managing damage is silly and shows nobody on the ZOS combat team PvPs on a MagDk at a high level. They are just crunching numbers to “to bring whip in line with...” whatever. They don’t play MagDk.

Particularly, PARTICULARLY as one could easily have flame lashes hit for the numbers folks are “bragging” their moltens are hitting for.

Dojohoda · June 2019

Yesterday my death recap was Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip.

I might need to trade in my gaming mouse for one button and roll a dk.

Insco851 · June 2019

Dojohoda wrote: »

Yesterday my death recap was Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip.

I might need to trade in my gaming mouse for one button and roll a dk.

Was it 5 different dk’s? Or a glitches full stack spam? Otherwise....

irstarkey57 · June 2019

Yea I mean people have taken to spamming chains to give you an idea as to how poorly this is designed for magdk. Remember the offbalance magdk spin meta zos? Congrats, you just recreated it by accident. Infinite sustain from making chains a spammable. Lmao...

jcm2606 · June 2019

Dojohoda wrote: »

Yesterday my death recap was Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip Molten Whip.

I might need to trade in my gaming mouse for one button and roll a dk.

You gain nothing from spamming Molten Whip, so that DK just didn't know how to use it. Still think Molten Whip is poorly designed, but you have to know how to use it for it to be effective.

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Yea I mean people have taken to spamming chains to give you an idea as to how poorly this is designed for magdk. Remember the offbalance magdk spin meta zos? Congrats, you just recreated it by accident. Infinite sustain from making chains a spammable. Lmao...

Don't forget stamDK slotting Molten Whip on the side and spamming Noxious to keep the 375 weapon damage up.

BlackMadara · June 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

In pvp the new whip is great. Easiest way to get a fully stacked whip is empowering chains > engulfing flames > burning embers. The increase in root immunity and root cd timer make flame lash less usable imo. If I catch a moment of high ping, and miss my lash on a rooter target, I have to wait a while before having another chance.

For pve, I can see the issue. They did say they wanted to change the static rotation up. Now you can try a few different rotations.

-run a simple rotation, using the buffed big hit whip.

-use engulfing or chains as a spammable, having full fury stacks at all times.

- use another spammable and either use whip only at full stacks or cast an AF ability every 5s to keep full stacks.

Are these choices truly a problem or just such a deviation from what was usual that people are upset?

You’re supposed to be animation canceling those whips...just saying. Even the molten ones. Lmao.

Unless you’re zerging powerlash is better for the heals. 1v1, 1vX, against a ball Zerg with support and heals you’ll really want the heals. Just saying. I mean who are you fighting and how.

I mean MagDk played at its best is all about managing your buffs and debuffs. Micro managing damage is silly and shows nobody on the ZOS combat team PvPs on a MagDk at a high level. They are just crunching numbers to “to bring whip in line with...” whatever. They don’t play MagDk.

Particularly, PARTICULARLY as one could easily have flame lashes hit for the numbers folks are “bragging” their moltens are hitting for.

Animation canceling does not make effects happen faster. It just allows you to not waste time on the backend of animations, which may cut into the GCD.

Cauterize, burning embers, shattering rocks (averaging 4k heals, ain't bad), and the buff to coagulating blood keep me healthy.

Lash allows for a more tight rope playstyle, true. Very enjoyable to duke it out, getting low from trading blows, then popping back to full hp on an offensive combo with power lash.

Whip condenses your offensive window. Requiring you to choose your offensive moments more carefully. I am personally enjoying it so far.

Nobody can get power lash to hit as hard as a stacked molten whip, unless the whip user is running very, very low damage. Power lash gives about an 18% increase of damage from flame lash.
One stack of seething fury outpaces that.

The heal from power lash is excellent, and I may go back to it after my little stint with whip.

JumpmanLane · June 2019

ma

BlackMadara wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

In pvp the new whip is great. Easiest way to get a fully stacked whip is empowering chains > engulfing flames > burning embers. The increase in root immunity and root cd timer make flame lash less usable imo. If I catch a moment of high ping, and miss my lash on a rooter target, I have to wait a while before having another chance.

For pve, I can see the issue. They did say they wanted to change the static rotation up. Now you can try a few different rotations.

-run a simple rotation, using the buffed big hit whip.

-use engulfing or chains as a spammable, having full fury stacks at all times.

- use another spammable and either use whip only at full stacks or cast an AF ability every 5s to keep full stacks.

Are these choices truly a problem or just such a deviation from what was usual that people are upset?

You’re supposed to be animation canceling those whips...just saying. Even the molten ones. Lmao.

Unless you’re zerging powerlash is better for the heals. 1v1, 1vX, against a ball Zerg with support and heals you’ll really want the heals. Just saying. I mean who are you fighting and how.

I mean MagDk played at its best is all about managing your buffs and debuffs. Micro managing damage is silly and shows nobody on the ZOS combat team PvPs on a MagDk at a high level. They are just crunching numbers to “to bring whip in line with...” whatever. They don’t play MagDk.

Particularly, PARTICULARLY as one could easily have flame lashes hit for the numbers folks are “bragging” their moltens are hitting for.

Animation canceling does not make effects happen faster. It just allows you to not waste time on the backend of animations, which may cut into the GCD.

Cauterize, burning embers, shattering rocks (averaging 4k heals, ain't bad), and the buff to coagulating blood keep me healthy.

Lash allows for a more tight rope playstyle, true. Very enjoyable to duke it out, getting low from trading blows, then popping back to full hp on an offensive combo with power lash.

Whip condenses your offensive window. Requiring you to choose your offensive moments more carefully. I am personally enjoying it so far.

Nobody can get power lash to hit as hard as a stacked molten whip, unless the whip user is running very, very low damage. Power lash gives about an 18% increase of damage from flame lash.
One stack of seething fury outpaces that.

The heal from power lash is excellent, and I may go back to it after my little stint with whip.

It’s just an unorthodox playstyle. You’d be better off running 2 piece kena and light attacking twice if you want burst. My whole thing is how much damage do you need to kill 70% of the folks you’d run into in Cyro.

For dangerous folks you’re gonna want that heal. Powerlash is definitely landable if you animation cancel your whips (whip block, whip block). I’m convinced a well canceled whip is faster. The full animation of a flame lash (or any whip) has to be longer than the gcd.

Lokey0024 · June 2019

Its really good. Don't understand the hate. Its counter intuitive to every way a MDK has been played so far but once it clicks you will love it.