Longer duration on elemental weapon and Magicka Melee weapons PLEASE?

jdmoonan · November 2018

I have been playing Mag DK for years on PC NA, and have noticed a distinct difference between stamina dots and magicka dots.

1. I want to start with the fact that there are multiple classes designed for melee and are magicka and we only have access to staves. I feel that first off this is very clunky and makes absolutely no sense. Why would I used a ranged weapon if every skill I am using is 8 meters or less?
2. In just about every Elder Scrolls games there are bound weapons, like swords, axes, battle axes, great swords, ect... But in this game there is only 3 offensive stave options all with the same skill line and a resto for healing.
3. Can we get some sort of melee magicka weapons or at least if you guys only want to half ass it can we get a magicka morph for all the weapon melee lines and the weapons scale off of max stat, or which ever gives more damage.
4. One of the distinct differences and what makes stamina so much stronger (not including the fact that stamina sets are far superior to magicka sets) is the fact that weapon skill lines have bleeds attached to them. Stamina users get free dots just for using specific weapons, and the light attacks, and some dots skills from those trees apply bleeds which are unmitigated. The fact that you can push weapon damage so much higher than you can spell damage and get free dots that scale with that damage makes stamina damage in PVP far superior to that of magicka, as far as I have been told this is also true in PVE.
5. I feel that we need either magicka melee skill lines or all melee weapons need to be changed to max stat scaling both for damage and resource return and all abilities need to have a magicka morph as well as a stamina morph.
6. Elemental weapon in my opinion was a very half ass way to give magicka users access to magicka damage on light and heavy attacks with melee weapons if that was the intent. Either way the ability is only 2 seconds and then needs to be re-casted which makes the skill almost unusable. Having to recast the skill every time someone dodges or just because the light attack was some how missed in a buggy way just makes in not usable in most cases. I think this skill should have at least a 5 second up time on cast to make it even usable.
7. Finally if you wont give us magicka melee weapons which would be just flat out unfair, then you need to give us some sort of unmitigatable dot in our passives for magicka dot users. Burning is weak and not to mention stamina can also get a status effect from poison glyph as well as there twin blade and blunt passive, and rending or blood craze unmitigatable bleed damage, and all bleeds scale with weapon damage.

Please do not add any of these recommended changes to the crap staves skill line, please make sure to give magicka melee users their own melee weapons like have been in all other games. When I think battle mage I don't think staff user, I think front line heavy armor in you face magicka user with bound weapons beating on you, like all other elder scrolls games.

Thank you from me and all other melee magicka users!

-JDMOONAN the Fire Mage

sly007 · November 2018

I concur
It is frustrating to go from paying my stamina dk which can sacrifice sustain for damage and actually survive pressure from multiple players to my mag dk which has to sacrifice damage for sustain. This makes healing tougher and killing anyone with a brain an ordeal.

I still don't like coagulating blood. Remove the 33% extra healing at low hp and give it a hot. 8k heal with a 8k hot over 4 seconds. I will never be low enough to get the full bonus of that 33%. If I do get that low, I'm dead.

battlejacob2 · November 2018

Before I get into my issues with this argument, I would like to state that 1) I do find the idea of melee weapons for magicka-focused builds intriguing, 2) I also main magicka dragonknight and have noticed a significant gap in DPS between mid and end-game content, and 3) several of the points you have made are simply false.

1. There is a clear distinction between magicka and stamina-focused builds. The only magicka-focused build that uses skills from (5m) is magicka dragonknight because of Flame Lash. If you have a personal issue with this, you can easily switch this skill out for Force Pulse or Elemental Weapon. Every other magicka-focused setup can easily DPS from roughly (as far as 18m) away.
2. I do not hate the idea of introducing melee weapons for magicka-focused classes, and although there would have to be much more thought put into that system than this, bound weapons could be the place to start. There needs to be a way to distinguish between the two types of melee weapons.
3. Basically the same as point #2.
4. Stamina and magicka-focused builds cap off at relatively the same DPS (depending on the class). This can be seen through Alcast’s DPS parses, 61k on a stamina nightblade, and 60k on a magicka templar. Stamina-focused builds do pull ahead, but only by a few thousand DPS. Bleed plays almost no role in this. Most DOT damage (for stamina-focused builds) comes from poison or weapon abilities. Although I do not PVP very often, the advantage to using a magicka-focused build is that you have spam-able shields and can attack from further away.
5. Basically the same as point #2.
6. I believe that Imbue Weapon was introduced to give players another option as a spam-able attack. Both morphs are comparable to class spam-ables and provided builds such as stamina sorcerer with a new BIS. Although there is a significant difference of how this skill works mechanically, it is easy to use once you get used to it. Also, LA’s are not reliable in PVP, therefore you should not expect this skill to perform well in that type of content.
7. Again, I do not participate in PVP content very often, but I have heard that this is a problem. This does not have anything to do with introducing melee weapons to magicka-focused builds though. It is more of a balancing issue for PVP content (which could be the result of some PVE changes).

NOTES. Something that I want to make clear is that, although you might be able to push your weapon damage to a higher number than your spell damage, they do not scale in the same way. Let’s not forget that ESO is an MMORPG first, and it must undergo a lot of testing and thought before introducing new content. They cannot just throw something in because it’d be “cool”, unlike for any single-player game.

All in all, I don’t think that we should be complaining that these features are not included in the game, but rather, how they might be introduced in a balanced and manage-able way.

Nser · November 2018

i agree with @jdmoonan

Nser · November 2018

nothing wrong of having magicka weapon skill line.

Nser · November 2018

stamina can do (nbs)
-bleed dots
-enchants proc d/w damage health
-poisons proc 2h
-viper proc
-sload set proc damage health proc
-monster set w/e proc
-ultim dissese no more heal
-hight sustain and heals vigor
everythings in 1 sec
can.kill u in 1 sec
cloak

what mdk have sucks dot no execute
just dead meat

Nice balance zos what mdk can do with this ?
nothing
about pve
pve is not hard and its sucks piece of cake, sorry for that but thats the true for me at least

Mdk

1.5 & beta

idk · November 2018

Sorry, hard to follow the OP since the thoughts seem scattered.

Staves have a range down to 1 meter so melee range works fine. Every solid stam melee build includes a bow so your first point lack merit.

Elemental Weapons was not added to the game to give magcika builds a means to give magicka damage to light and heavy attacks. It is just a different spammable that happens to be delivered via a light attack. It is no different than using any other magicka based spammable.

Your last point that somehow Zos needs to give us either a magicka melee weapon or a magicak based DoT that is not mitigated by anything is really an odd if this or that statement. The two seem unrelated.

None of the other points made sense so I avoided them.

I am not arguing against another magicka based weapon. In fact I have stated that is Zos adds another weapon to the game it will be magicka based since Stam already has 3 damage weapon lines vs the one Magicka has. However, the reasons provided in this thread do not really offer sound justification or a compelling reason for Zos to act.

In fact I find it odd that the title has to do with longer duration of elemental weapons but that is not really what the OP is about.

Juhasow · November 2018

I think too many people thinks that Elemental Weapon is adding dmg to base dmg of weapon attacks instead knowing it's just separate dmg proc and it's more like a spammable ability then buff for weapon attacks.

idk · November 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

I think too many people thinks that Elemental Weapon is adding dmg to base dmg of weapon attacks instead knowing it's just separate dmg proc and it's more like a spammable ability then buff for weapon attacks.

This, as I alluded to in my post above.

jdmoonan · November 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

I think too many people thinks that Elemental Weapon is adding dmg to base dmg of weapon attacks instead knowing it's just separate dmg proc and it's more like a spammable ability then buff for weapon attacks.

It is buffed by empower and is calculated with the attack itself. When the damage is shown on a damage counter is is shown separately but is still the light or heavy attack itself and is also buffed with elegant as well.

battlejacob2 · November 2018

Nser wrote: »

stamina can do (nbs)
-bleed dots
-enchants proc d/w damage health
-poisons proc 2h
-viper proc
-sload set proc damage health proc
-monster set w/e proc
-ultim dissese no more heal
-hight sustain and heals vigor
everythings in 1 sec
can.kill u in 1 sec
cloak

what mdk have sucks dot no execute
just dead meat

Nice balance zos what mdk can do with this ?
nothing
about pve
pve is not hard and its sucks piece of cake, sorry for that but thats the true for me at least

Mdk

1.5 & beta

I understand that you're trying to make a point that stamina has more access to DOTs in PVP content, but that doesn't really relate to the topic at hand. Adding melee weapons for magicka-focused classes won't change the fact that stamina-focused classes have access to a different array of sets and class abilities.

Plus, aren't magicka-focused builds supposed to deal more burst damage and nuke players down in PVP?

jdmoonan · November 2018

battlejacob2 wrote: »

I understand that you're trying to make a point that stamina has more access to DOTs in PVP content, but that doesn't really relate to the topic at hand. Adding melee weapons for magicka-focused classes won't change the fact that stamina-focused classes have access to a different array of sets and class abilities.

Plus, aren't magicka-focused builds supposed to deal more burst damage and nuke players down in PVP?

Then why are there two dot focused magicka classes in the game? Templar and DK are specifically designed for dots both magicka and stam. Sorc and Night Blade are both designed for burst damage and I guess you could also say that Warden would also be a burst class.

battlejacob2 · November 2018

jdmoonan wrote: »

Then why are there two dot focused magicka classes in the game? Templar and DK are specifically designed for dots both magicka and stam. Sorc and Night Blade are both designed for burst damage and I guess you could also say that Warden would also be a burst class.

That was a genuine question, as I stated earlier I do not play much PVP content.
But on that note, I believe magicka templar does do a great deal of burst damage.

Again, this has nothing to do with how magicka-focused melee weapons would change magicka dragonknight's playstyle at all. You might be able to add another DOT (or two), but it really comes down to class abilities and the sets available.

Juhasow · November 2018

jdmoonan wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

I think too many people thinks that Elemental Weapon is adding dmg to base dmg of weapon attacks instead knowing it's just separate dmg proc and it's more like a spammable ability then buff for weapon attacks.

It is buffed by empower and is calculated with the attack itself. When the damage is shown on a damage counter is is shown separately but is still the light or heavy attack itself and is also buffed with elegant as well.

You're completly wrong and You're either lying and know that , You did some testing and results were false or You get knowledge from some unreliable source.

Light attack have completly different calculation then elemental weapon. Here are both calculations :
light attack - $1 = 0.0449355 Magicka + 0.472123 SD + 0.208275
elemental weapon - $1 = 0.096144 Magicka + 1.00792 SD - 1.96746

Elemental Weapon is also NOT getting buffed by empower and any set or CP that buffs weapon attacks exclusively. It is separate ability dmg proc not weapon attack buff or part of weapon attack dmg. Light attack is just requirement for this ability to occur and 1 light attack can proc this ability only once.

TheShadowScout · November 2018

jdmoonan wrote: »

I feel that we need either magicka melee skill lines...

I still don't get it why some people think a scrawny, bookish mage should want to get their robe-clad arse within striking distance of a brawny warrior and their big nasty weapons...
I mean, melee combat should be last resort for brainy mages, right? And better left to brutish warriors, right?

And in those last resorts... well, there are some magical melee skills already in the staffyness, and some more scattered among class skills... but generally, mages are traditionally supposed to be artillery, just look at the protecion values of their robes...

jdmoonan wrote: »

...or all melee weapons need to be changed to max stat scaling both for damage and resource return and all abilities need to have a magicka morph as well as a stamina morph.

No.
That is a terrible idea.
Why do some people always think that stamina and magica characters should be made more similar by letting them share all skills???
The fun in a game is that characters are -different-, not that they are all the same! I want -more- differences, not less! More options for people to develop their characters towards, so we get more varietee in the characters we play with, together or against!

Also, it makes no sense.

A stamina weapon does its damage through the wielders brawn, those warrior muscles imparting kinetic energy to a nasty piece of metal to put the business end into forceful contact with their enemies, so skil will be rent, bones broken and the red stuff spilled.

A magica spell on the other hand does its damage through the casters mystic power, flinging magical energies in their opponents faces in the form of great balls of scorching fire and shocking bolts of lighnting, shards of sharp ice or terrible mystic curses, etc. No matter if the spell comes from a mages inneate magic, or is cast with the help of a staff...

Two completely different things, yes?

Now, there are some things that are kinda half-and-half... like, magicing up a summoned weapon like a holy javelin, blood magic dagger or burning lava whip, and then using musclepower to throw/poke/lash it at your enemy.
Since the system is not quite detailed enough to treat those as such, these skills usually start as magica and then get a stamina morph.
Doesn't mean all magical spells should get a stamina morph (or how many fireballs have musclemen punched into existance lately? Even fantasy settings don't go there, even fighting animes have some "magical" ki/chi/prana/whatever explaination for those) Nor does it mean physical weapons should get a stamina morph (since magic is notoriously ineffective at wielding weapons, as are most mages due to spending their time with their hand on their dictionary of spells to use instead in the warriors gym, building up the muscles to wield weapons...)

So, all this being said...
...mages in ESO -should- get some more options!
At the very least, one or two more weapon skill lines... perhaps something like mentioned here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii

Elwendryll · November 2018

Okay. But I want the healing staff to scale off the higher ressource. If you can use my melee weapons, then I want to heal.

Juhasow · November 2018

Elwendryll wrote: »

Okay. But I want the healing staff to scale off the higher ressource. If you can use my melee weapons, then I want to heal.

Ok but I want resolving vigor and forward momentum being magicka morphs lel.

shadowwraith666 · November 2018

Add a conjured weapons skill-line, previous TES games had both conjured weapons and armour.

Dottzgaming · November 2018

I know for me personally, i love melee magicka. There's something really fun about it, not only aesthetically but in terms of gameplay. Especially for mDK, since the ranges are so short, the melee weapons feel really fluid to use in PvP and it gives you that "battle mage" playstyle. I know someone in the thread said "why would a scrawny little mage go into melee range", but that just completely ignores the battlemage archetype... but I dont want to go off on a tangent.

While yes, staves are usable in melee range, i think one of JD's core points is that a class that has really short range magicka spells feels weird being funneled into using purely ranged weapons (even though they work at melee, it sucks not having the option to use melee weapons as effectively).

While reading the thread, i thought of something that could probably make magicka melee more viable and leave stam unaffected.

In the soul magic skill line, you can add a skill called "bind weapon". When casted, it converts any equipped melee weapons the user is currently using have their light attacks scale off of maximum magicka, and their heavy attacks restore maximum magicka. It would rename the item to "Bound X" (where X is the title of the wapon), and then the skill could be removed from your bars. That's it. This method completely leaves DW, 2h, and SnB unaffected but gives melee magicka viable weaving with melee weapons. Magicka would still really primarily have to use swords to get the % damage increase, but i think it's easier to go a route like this than to re-work the melee skill lines.

I think either a route like that, or a future weapon line dedicated to bound melee weapons would be the way to go. But that's just my 2 cents.

jdmoonan · June 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

I think too many people thinks that Elemental Weapon is adding dmg to base dmg of weapon attacks instead knowing it's just separate dmg proc and it's more like a spammable ability then buff for weapon attacks.

It actually adds damage to the light attack and is also buffed by empower. I tested this ages ago and released a 1 shot build that got nerfed a week after release.

boundsy88 · June 2019

Not to mention magicka classes have been using dual wield (stamina weapon line btw) since the game released to get more spell damage. Its a little less common now since destro's slight buffs since then and the introduction of 2 handed and staff becoming a 2 piece for set bonuses. But still its kinda dumb.

Imaging having purple flames emitting from your hands that turn to conjured swords as you light attacked and heavy attack. Cant tell me that would be lame.