Is it Just me or do near Invincible Guards just Kill the Immersion?

Juponen · June 2019

Killable guards yes, but only if player chars then have only one precious life too instead of being immortal. Fair is fair

rotaugen454 · June 2019

twev wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

OP, Sometimes you’ve just got to put your “immersion” aside for the sake of gameplay, especially in MMO’s. it would be absolutely farcical if zergs could just roll into towns, killing all the guards and other NPC’s in the town. You know guilds would do it just for the LOL’s.

It'd be anarchy.

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

thorwyn · June 2019

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help, and become notably stronger, within a 15meter radius (allowing enough space to escape if needed or for more mayhem-shenanigans)

This would introduce new a tower defence minigame in ESO where people would compete against each other for a score on the "how many waves did you kill" board. ^^

Reverb · June 2019

Head cannon: Guards equip the “Ward of Righteous Justice” at the beginning of their shift. It makes them invulnerable, but only while they are on duty and within range of the source or power which is hidden within the towns themselves.

Venturing beyond their patrol areas would cause the ward to dissipate and they would be weak and useless.

Kiralyn2000 · June 2019

It's you. "Immersion" is an overused buzzword, mostly misused by people to complain about literally anything they don't like about a game. (my all-time favorite, is the guy on the Wasteland 2 Beta forums, who complained that having a graphics option to let players pick a color-filter for the game "broke his immersion" because it "disrespected the dev's vision!" /facepalm)

Immortal guards & the crime reporting system are game mechanics, designed to facilitate the play of the game, not to attempt to make a "realism" sim.

--
I'm glad I don't suffer from Immersion, so that I can enjoy the games I play, instead of having my experience constantly 'ruined' by this Immersion thing 'breaking'.

Salvas_Aren · June 2019

Beardimus wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

Well, Bleackrock starts with guards everywhere and is burnt to the ground in the end. Did the daggers send guards for the invasion?

RexyCat · June 2019

Varana wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help...

Leading to piles and piles of bodies, up to the point that you have to ask yourself where all these guards willingly running to their death come from, whether they shouldn't be fighting in the Alliance War instead, why there are more guards in Ebonheart than NPCs and players combined, and all that stuff.

And I thought this was about immersion.

My reply is directed to discussion leading to Varana quote and not to her/his quote itself.

Another problem would be all checks and calculations that server need to do for range of guards and players with these kind of suggestion. We already have problems when server is loaded from too many player (and action from NPC and players) at the same instance. Why would more guards or even an elite guard system be any different? Server load needs to be kept on reasonable level and PvE zergs will become a real a problem when it is possible to manipulate how guards react as it would open up for more problems. You can still get away by using break free, dodge and go invisible as means to get out of guards attack. There is way to avoid being killed from guards and that is enough in my opinion. If you have stolen an item (by accident) and getting caught you can pay a fine and then have no punishment other then loosing all other stolen items that you had in inventory.

Any other changes to justice system would probably add a more complex punishment which wouldn't be seen as adding a fun part of game play. Imagine yourself getting yourself getting forced to play another character as your main character are being now locked down in jail for a 8 hour duration, instead of paying a fine and getting stolen items confiscated?

As another example there where some one that continuously aggroed guards within Mages Guild in Davon's Watch which run to door again and again with a tail of guards (several ones) with high movement speed and survived. That player seemed to have as goal to attack guards again and again, to get what ever that player wanted (looting safe boxes of what ever).

Imagine a first time player now without any CP, no good gear or any prio knowledge, how would these kind of player be able to play if these kind of player could continue to harass/aggro guards or important NPCs or even make all guards aware about people that are sneaking, using invis pots to open safe boxes or to steal items without being seen?

//RexyCat

Colecovision · June 2019

If it's not instanced and solo, there's zero immersion imo. It's a typical mmo in that regard and I don't think there's another way to do it.

But, If you find immersion in "lf2m" in guild chat and politics in zone chat and bosses respawning and other heros turning in quests while you save the same npc, then sure, invincible guards are a bummer.

Save some base game dungeons and solo them when you can. Fully immersive content with great missions that are 100% ruined by the mmo aspects of the game.

idk · June 2019

I think having to escape the guards to avoid paying a fine and losing my loot adds to the immersion. I suppose having an easier option is immersion for some but I think that is an immersion light version.

Zathras · June 2019

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

If an unkillable guard is the limit for your immersion breaking in this game, then you are fortunate.

I'm more concerned by the lava skin, lightning mounts, glowy everything. You know, whatever sells in a Cash Shop for a quick buck.

TheShadowScout · June 2019

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

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Zathras · June 2019

essi2 wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

To be honest I don't think the guards are fulfilling their role. Seen plenty of idiots kite-ing the guards slaughtering npc's in towns.

Be nice if they added ranged guards/with a mix of bows/staffs to towns, to counter that somewhat.

Yes.

And to the OP, there is no way to make the Guards even remotely a threat w/o making them invincible.

If they were ever made killable every town would be a ghost town as soon as the servers where live with the change.

Of course there is. Give them the same health and abilities along the lines of a World Boss. Some people can solo them, but most can't. Also, let them call for help when they reach a health threshold, and suddenly you have an extra one, or more depending on how that add is dealt with.

God-mode is a cop-out.

Erelah · June 2019

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

Well, Bleackrock starts with guards everywhere and is burnt to the ground in the end. Did the daggers send guards for the invasion?

Bleakrock is a tale told to guards throughout the world. If you leave your home you loose your immortality. They gained thier power by making a deal with the Prince of bargains. they will have unlimited power to do their jobs, but they price is they are bound to their towns.

If they leave it even for a moment, they are cursed to have their village/town destroyed. That is the true story behind Bleakrock. Sadly due to budget and time contraits it was cut out of the game.

DBZVelena · June 2019

SkerKro wrote: »

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help, and become notably stronger, within a 15meter radius (allowing enough space to escape if needed or for more mayhem-shenanigans)

Kill 1 guard (275k HP) = 3 guards (with 550k HP each) spawn (within that 15 meter radius) each guard now 25% stronger than the guard already killed.

Kill the 3 guards = 9 guards (with 773 HP each) come forth, each now 75% stronger than the last three.

Kill 9 guards = 18 guards (with 1.5mil HP each), each 100% stronger than the last nine.

Kill 18 guards = 36 guards (with 12.9mil HP each) now; each 275% stronger than the last eighteen.

Kill 36 guards... etc, etc, etc...

So... in the end, killing guards would just spawn more, stronger guards, while drawing attention to other guards, that will spawn more guards if defeated. Resulting in a growing swarm effect that gets stronger and stronger - but that's just me. Also, doubt the game would be able to with stand that type of load anyways. Wishful thinking and such.

This wouldn't work any more than the original killable guards.
Because more players would join in, and eventually you'd have a zone wide fight, which would crash the map.

Tan9oSuccka · June 2019

No thanks. They had to do it his way because they knew gamers would cheese pretty much everything.

Nogawd · June 2019

Leave quest npc's alone.

As stated above, you want to kill guards? Comes at a price.

I love the idea of them coming after you a to a certain limit outside of the city. Bounties should rack up insane amounts and if they kill you, they take all of your gold, inventory, and gear that you are wearing.

You want to play, comes at a cost.

Elsonso · June 2019

twev wrote: »

Gotta have lawkeepers who always win, else there'd be dead lawkeepers everywhere all the time.

Right. Players would always be able to get enough DPS to take down a guard. The guards would stand no chance, like the rest of the justice NPCs.

twev wrote: »

The immersion-busting part for me is that I can get a bounty in Vulkhel Guard, and every lawkeeper in Tamriel not only knows about it

Yes, instant communication between guards is annoying. Oddly enough, we spend a significant part of each quest running around telling people what we did. Shouldn't they know already?

JobooAGS · June 2019

If there are killable guards, then it should be a toggle. You cannot untoggle if you have a bounty of any value. If you die at any time when you toggle, your character gets deleted and you lose everything associated with that character, including gear and materials that such character has touched or looked at in your bank/home at any point. Call it confiscation. In addition to that, if any guards are killed, such character will be hunted down anywhere just like the guards in oblivion and always seemenly know where you are.

On a more serious note, guards, or at least an elite version of them after the 1st set of normal guards are killed will have to be unkillable otherwise this WILL lead to various forms of abuse which will not only destroy immersion anyway, but make it worse.

StormeReigns · June 2019

DBZVelena wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help, and become notably stronger, within a 15meter radius (allowing enough space to escape if needed or for more mayhem-shenanigans)

Kill 1 guard (275k HP) = 3 guards (with 550k HP each) spawn (within that 15 meter radius) each guard now 25% stronger than the guard already killed.

Kill the 3 guards = 9 guards (with 773 HP each) come forth, each now 75% stronger than the last three.

Kill 9 guards = 18 guards (with 1.5mil HP each), each 100% stronger than the last nine.

Kill 18 guards = 36 guards (with 12.9mil HP each) now; each 275% stronger than the last eighteen.

Kill 36 guards... etc, etc, etc...

So... in the end, killing guards would just spawn more, stronger guards, while drawing attention to other guards, that will spawn more guards if defeated. Resulting in a growing swarm effect that gets stronger and stronger - but that's just me. Also, doubt the game would be able to with stand that type of load anyways. Wishful thinking and such.

This wouldn't work any more than the original killable guards.
Because more players would join in, and eventually you'd have a zone wide fight, which would crash the map.

Check out the very last this i wrote...

SkerKro wrote: »

Also, doubt the game would be able to with stand that type of load anyways. Wishful thinking and such.

Interesting that so many focused on cherry picking to push a pointless agenda, and ignored the part where I am aware it wouldn't work, and it was just wishful thinking, all just to start a argument over moot reasons...

Xerikten · June 2019

i'm all for it provided there are repercussions like a large bounty or faction loss.

david_m_18b16_ESO · June 2019

I think that 1 guard should be really weaker then the vestige. But they should just come in a overwhelming numbers so you can't just steal everything and kill them all.

Dusk_Coven · June 2019

Actually players ruin immersion. Invincible guards are really just a bandaid solution against that.

If guards weren't invincible, whole towns would be graveyards. For example, I've seen piles of soldier bodies dead at a fort because players were farming XP. That ruins immersion more than a guard that can't be killed.

If there weren't guards around to have the possibility you are driven out of town for a crime, a lot of players would go crazy robbing and murdering everyone.
They can already do that in Cyrodiil but they don't want to get ganked. Makes you wonder why they don't go to Cyrodiil.

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

I think that 1 guard should be really weaker then the vestige. But they should just come in a overwhelming numbers so you can't just steal everything and kill them all.

When players can solo raid bosses -- and yes, I've seen this -- this solution would just keep getting scaled up into invincible guards anyway. As it is, you can actually run away from them and not get flattened right away and that's already being very generous.

darougaroux · June 2019

Beardimus wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

Here's the thing though. In the single player versions of all the elder scrolls games, you kill enough people or guards, you cant progress. Not being able to go into towns and get quests, interact with NPCs is the punishment and after a while of that, you self correct that behavior because otherwise, you cant play the game. Harsher penalties for bad behavoir is the answer, not God like guards.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · June 2019

Gameplay > immersion

I come from the king of communities when it comes to crying about "muh' immersion"...

Elite Dangerous. Don't go there. People insist on a reason for everything there. Space sim bois be weird...

*shudders*

RebornV3x · June 2019

Reverb wrote: »

Head cannon: Guards equip the “Ward of Righteous Justice” at the beginning of their shift. It makes them invulnerable, but only while they are on site and within range of the source or power which is hidden within the towns themselves.

Venturing beyond their patrol areas would cause the ward to dissipate and they would be weak and useless.

This is how I more or less think it is these guards have some type of magic that only works inside of the towns they patrol if they stray to far from the town they become weak.

Myrm · June 2019

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Elite Dangerous. Don't go there. People insist on a reason for everything there. Space sim bois be weird...

*shudders*

I’m there now. Have been for most of the day

srfrogg23 · June 2019

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Gameplay > immersion

I come from the king of communities when it comes to crying about "muh' immersion"...

Elite Dangerous. Don't go there. People insist on a reason for everything there. Space sim bois be weird...

*shudders*

Well, constantly being attacked by pirates based on "I heard you got some sweet cargo" when you're 3000 light years outside of any known civilized space tends to raise a few questions.

"Oh, you just 'heard' I had some sweet cargo? All the way out here? For some salvaged junk? From who??? I don't think so."

CMDR_Un1k0rn · June 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Gameplay > immersion

I come from the king of communities when it comes to crying about "muh' immersion"...

Elite Dangerous. Don't go there. People insist on a reason for everything there. Space sim bois be weird...

*shudders*

Well, constantly being attacked by pirates based on "I heard you got some sweet cargo" when you're 3000 light years outside of any known civilized space tends to raise a few questions.

"Oh, you just 'heard' I had some sweet cargo? All the way out here? For some salvaged junk? From who??? I don't think so."

True. That's all I can say to that.

Suffice to say I'm done with Elite. Especially now knowing they can't even handle cheats. Why even bother with PvP?

srfrogg23 · June 2019

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Gameplay > immersion

I come from the king of communities when it comes to crying about "muh' immersion"...

Elite Dangerous. Don't go there. People insist on a reason for everything there. Space sim bois be weird...

*shudders*

Well, constantly being attacked by pirates based on "I heard you got some sweet cargo" when you're 3000 light years outside of any known civilized space tends to raise a few questions.

"Oh, you just 'heard' I had some sweet cargo? All the way out here? For some salvaged junk? From who??? I don't think so."

True. That's all I can say to that.

Suffice to say I'm done with Elite. Especially now knowing they can't even handle cheats. Why even bother with PvP?

Ew... Got pretty bad, then? I haven't played since last year some time.

kookster · June 2019

Im not a fan of the unkillable guard system either. I wish they would introduce something like in GTA, when you kill a guard your heat goes up and more guards show up, eventually to the point where its overwhelming and you die or get the heck out of dodge.