Is it Just me or do near Invincible Guards just Kill the Immersion?

darougaroux · June 2019

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

HorrorShow · June 2019

Agreed. They should be just as easily killed as any other being.

Beardimus · June 2019

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

twev · June 2019

Beardimus wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

Gotta have lawkeepers who always win, else there'd be dead lawkeepers everywhere all the time.

The immersion-busting part for me is that I can get a bounty in Vulkhel Guard, and every lawkeeper in Tamriel not only knows about it, but factions we're at war with even CARE that I have a bounty in Vulkhel Guard.

fixt my speeling errerz

thorwyn · June 2019

If guards would be killable, all those JimmiPowerGamers would eraze the entire city including Quest NPC's, bankers, traders etc. Because that would be the next logical step in your immersion chain: why should NPC's be invincible? Wouldn't that kill the immersion even more?

FierceSam · June 2019

twev wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

Gotta have lawkeepers who always win, else there'd be dead lawkeepers everywhere all the time.

The immersion-busting part for me is that I can get a bounty in Vulkhel Guard, and every lawkeeper in Tamriel not only knows about it, but factions we're at war with even CARE that I have a bounty in Vulkhel Guard.

fixt my speeling errerz

That’s the downside of being a spectacular badass. Reputation spreads.

The guards have a union. They keep in touch (informally obv, because they’re all loyal to their own alliance). And while they each work diligently for their own faction, they don’t like to see arrogant adventurers messing with any one of their own.

You take the *** out of one guard and they’re all going to get annoyed.

MattT1988 · June 2019

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

OP, Sometimes you’ve just got to put your “immersion” aside for the sake of gameplay, especially in MMO’s. it would be absolutely farcical if zergs could just roll into towns, killing all the guards and other NPC’s in the town. You know guilds would do it just for the LOL’s.

twev · June 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

OP, Sometimes you’ve just got to put your “immersion” aside for the sake of gameplay, especially in MMO’s. it would be absolutely farcical if zergs could just roll into towns, killing all the guards and other NPC’s in the town. You know guilds would do it just for the LOL’s.

It'd be anarchy.

But only because the guards wouldn't be able to flog the miscreants behind the KB, as they would have done in a real life medieval situation paralleling Tamriel.

StormeReigns · June 2019

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help, and become notably stronger, within a 15meter radius (allowing enough space to escape if needed or for more mayhem-shenanigans)

Kill 1 guard (275k HP) = 3 guards (with 550k HP each) spawn (within that 15 meter radius) each guard now 25% stronger than the guard already killed.

Kill the 3 guards = 9 guards (with 773 HP each) come forth, each now 75% stronger than the last three.

Kill 9 guards = 18 guards (with 1.5mil HP each), each 100% stronger than the last nine.

Kill 18 guards = 36 guards (with 12.9mil HP each) now; each 275% stronger than the last eighteen.

Kill 36 guards... etc, etc, etc...

So... in the end, killing guards would just spawn more, stronger guards, while drawing attention to other guards, that will spawn more guards if defeated. Resulting in a growing swarm effect that gets stronger and stronger - but that's just me. Also, doubt the game would be able to with stand that type of load anyways. Wishful thinking and such.

red_emu · June 2019

twev wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

Gotta have lawkeepers who always win, else there'd be dead lawkeepers everywhere all the time.

The immersion-busting part for me is that I can get a bounty in Vulkhel Guard, and every lawkeeper in Tamriel not only knows about it, but factions we're at war with even CARE that I have a bounty in Vulkhel Guard.

fixt my speeling errerz

Myrm · June 2019

I don’t think guards should be killable either. However, saying that; if they were killable then I would like to see some form of “Elite” or “Special Forces” guards that would arrive when normal guards are killed, and wipe the floor up with the strongest of players, and not even break into a sweat.

twev · June 2019

Myrm wrote: »

I don’t think guards should be killable either. However, saying that; if they were killable then I would like to see some form of “Elite” or “Special Forces” guards that would arrive when normal guards are killed, and wipe the floor up with the strongest of players, and not even break into a sweat.

Not bad....

Varana · June 2019

SkerKro wrote: »

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help...

Leading to piles and piles of bodies, up to the point that you have to ask yourself where all these guards willingly running to their death come from, whether they shouldn't be fighting in the Alliance War instead, why there are more guards in Ebonheart than NPCs and players combined, and all that stuff.

And I thought this was about immersion.

Mr_Walker · June 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

twev wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

darougaroux wrote: »

I mean, why am I running around helping people and saving entire kingdoms for all kinds of atrocities when a single freaking guard from any one of these 5 person towns can just wipe the floor with me? I mean seriously, I might as well retire to some bar somewhere and just let one of these guards save the world because im willing to bet they could easily 1v1 Bal and freaking win. Dragon, no problem, your town has a guard doesnt it? Another King or Queen has to fight some unspeakable horror, guard. Daedric God attacking your town, I bet if you pay a guard a little more than he or she is making walking the beat, they could do it easily.....why even ask me? Just doesnt make sense and ruins the game on a certain level for me.

I'd say the opposite. Otherwise in every town you would have people killing guards, whaling on them and nothing you can do.

It was bad enough when dark brotherhood dropped and there were corpses everywhere.

As an EP only player should i allow DC & AD characters to kill all the guards in Davons Watch? No, that would be an invasion.

Also, there is zero reason to ever get in a fight with a guard, if you play right....which adds to immersion. Thieve without getting caught, murder without being seen etc etc.

Gotta have lawkeepers who always win, else there'd be dead lawkeepers everywhere all the time.

The immersion-busting part for me is that I can get a bounty in Vulkhel Guard, and every lawkeeper in Tamriel not only knows about it, but factions we're at war with even CARE that I have a bounty in Vulkhel Guard.

fixt my speeling errerz

That’s the downside of being a spectacular badass. Reputation spreads.

The guards have a union. They keep in touch (informally obv, because they’re all loyal to their own alliance). And while they each work diligently for their own faction, they don’t like to see arrogant adventurers messing with any one of their own.

You take the *** out of one guard and they’re all going to get annoyed.

Spectacular badass? I stole a potion!

Uryel · June 2019

I think guards should be like major faction NPC in Rift : tough, but killable. Like, 12-man raid killable.

As of today, it doesn't make much sense that they don't even have any HP, can't die at all, but hit like a 6 years old... Oh, but yeah, I suppose people would complain if they actually died from a guard catching them in an illegal act, and then you'd get a "nerf guards" thread. Or 50.

MartiniDaniels · June 2019

Myrm wrote: »

I don’t think guards should be killable either. However, saying that; if they were killable then I would like to see some form of “Elite” or “Special Forces” guards that would arrive when normal guards are killed, and wipe the floor up with the strongest of players, and not even break into a sweat.

Yes, that'll be cool. But like now it's dumb. And what is even more dumb that after some time they do unblockable/unreflectable one-shot in you.

StormeReigns · June 2019

Varana wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help...

Leading to piles and piles of bodies, up to the point that you have to ask yourself where all these guards willingly running to their death come from, whether they shouldn't be fighting in the Alliance War instead, why there are more guards in Ebonheart than NPCs and players combined, and all that stuff.

And I thought this was about immersion.

Cherry picking is best when picking the fruit, not for trying to making a moot argument, should've read the rest.

Knightpanther · June 2019

Its just you.

Guards and quest givers were killable in WOW, look how that turned out.

No thanks.

Be safe

Minyassa · June 2019

For me it enhances the immersion for the guards to be a viable authority figure, and that would not work if they were killable. They pose an actual threat that is a deterrant to committing crimes in front of them...immersion confirmed.

What breaks my immersion re: guards is their constant aggressive hostile rudeness toward players. Who the hell spends all day being snippy at celebrity war heroes and doesn't get their ass busted for it? Lame.

ArchMikem · June 2019

A.S.O.T.I.L. wants to know your location.

srfrogg23 · June 2019

Invincible guards, telepathic NPCs, the way guards and NPCs will kill me for accidentally grabbing an apple when I really meant to talk to the merchant...

And, now, the way wimpy wet-noodle non-hostile NPCs will become filled with an unquenchable bloodrage and become irrationally and irrevocably violently hostile towards me because my skeletal mage apparently flipped them the bird while I wasn't paying attention.

Yes. The Justice System is immersion breaking as a whole. The entire thing needs an opt-out option in the game settings.

Varana · June 2019

SkerKro wrote: »

Cherry picking is best when picking the fruit, not for trying to making a moot argument, should've read the rest.

I did, I just hate full-quoting posts.

Capable players will start breaking a sweat with your 9 guards. If they kill half of them, that's already a pile of 8 or 9 guards for one criminal. The Tamriel Police Department will soon run out of officers at that rate, and immersion has already been thrown out the window.
If someone else helps out, those 9 guards will go down, leading to a rate of 13 dead policemen against one thief. And so on. Players will start raiding town guards just for fun or XP in group.
People have (reportedly) solo-ed dragons. They will see cascading guards not as a deterrent but as a challenge.

And I fail to see how entire raid groups of guards spawning down on one guy would be creating a more realistic impression than what we have now.

jcm2606 · June 2019

SkerKro wrote: »

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help, and become notably stronger, within a 15meter radius (allowing enough space to escape if needed or for more mayhem-shenanigans)

Kill 1 guard (275k HP) = 3 guards (with 550k HP each) spawn (within that 15 meter radius) each guard now 25% stronger than the guard already killed.

Kill the 3 guards = 9 guards (with 773 HP each) come forth, each now 75% stronger than the last three.

Kill 9 guards = 18 guards (with 1.5mil HP each), each 100% stronger than the last nine.

Kill 18 guards = 36 guards (with 12.9mil HP each) now; each 275% stronger than the last eighteen.

Kill 36 guards... etc, etc, etc...

So... in the end, killing guards would just spawn more, stronger guards, while drawing attention to other guards, that will spawn more guards if defeated. Resulting in a growing swarm effect that gets stronger and stronger - but that's just me. Also, doubt the game would be able to with stand that type of load anyways. Wishful thinking and such.

Was actually about to comment this. Kill one guard, every guard currently in the area comes after you, even if you aren't in agro distance. Kill them all, more and beefier guards from the "city watch" or whatever come, with the lore reasons being they were off duty, and got a call to come out.

Pennylong · June 2019

I think they should be slower from all the arrows to the knee.

Jaraal · June 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

it would be absolutely farcical if zergs could just roll into towns, killing all the guards and other NPC’s in the town. You know guilds would do it just for the LOL’s.

They used to do this in the early days of EverQuest. Guards and other notable NPCs in cities were not intended to be killed, and were massively strong.... but apparently not immortal. And settlements were faction based, any player could go to a city where everyone hated you and wanted to kill you. So the top guilds would set up raiding parties to zerg entire cities, and people would get mad because the quest mobs were not available when they wanted to use them.

It was pretty chaotic, but fun.

bmnoble · June 2019

To be honest I don't think the guards are fulfilling their role. Seen plenty of idiots kite-ing the guards slaughtering npc's in towns.

Be nice if they added ranged guards/with a mix of bows/staffs to towns, to counter that somewhat.

Tandor · June 2019

Non-killable guards make the immersion for me, killable ones ruin the immersion when you enter a city and see guards' corpses lying all over the place.

TheShadowScout · June 2019

darougaroux wrote: »

Is it Just me or do near Invincible Guards just Kill the Immersion?

Lil bit.

I mean, yeah, I understand, they needed something to keep people from just blatantly being criminal... otherwise some people would wipe out whole towns just because they could... we know they would...
...but...
...technically kill-able gards with a "arrest criminal scum" spell that wraps you in chains ready to be carted off to face "Justice!" would have worked too, right?

SkerKro wrote: »

Guards should be kill able (imho), but, for a price. The more that you kill, more come to help...

...until some guild goes like "Lets see if we can crash the servers through too much guard spawn?"

Though personally I still think the whole justice system is a bit laughable, guards or no guards. But then, no surprise I would think that, considering: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384538/for-great-justice/p1

essi2 · June 2019

bmnoble wrote: »

To be honest I don't think the guards are fulfilling their role. Seen plenty of idiots kite-ing the guards slaughtering npc's in towns.

Be nice if they added ranged guards/with a mix of bows/staffs to towns, to counter that somewhat.

Yes.

And to the OP, there is no way to make the Guards even remotely a threat w/o making them invincible.

If they were ever made killable every town would be a ghost town as soon as the servers where live with the change.

rpa · June 2019

In this game running away from a guard is mostly easy. (Indoors can be annoying/impossible.) That's enough weakness.

Chadak · June 2019

In tabletop games, crappy gamemasters lean on unkillable NPC's a lot too.

You'll see this kind of thing done everywhere that bad/incompetent GM's leave their gobsmacked footprints.

Rocks fall, everyone dies.