I want Arenas

SacredEarth · May 2019

The more I play BGs the more I realize that my favourite moments are even matched fights that are usually 1v1 and 2v2. I can think of some 3v3 fights that were fun as well. What isnt fun is 4 players stacking AOE heals and Damage and using Ulti stacking for kills. What isnt fun is having a great even matched fight and before it is over getting rear ended by the 3rd team. What isn't fun is running around steam rolling everyone.
I have learned a lot about situational awareness and anticipating respawns and always watching my 6, but sometimes you just can avoid it. It is a real shame when a good fight gets interrupted. Even when it is the other team/player that gets rear ended and decimated, and it isnt the kill steal that I care about, it is the fact that there was a good competition happening between a 2 or 4 players and it got interrupted before the true winner could be decided. Based on what I have seen at my MMR (really low, and when I Queue with friends at higher levels) it seems like there would be a natural balance around 3v3 which would be super fun to experience.
I would love to see Arenas added to this game. Non-CP, for obvious reasons. I think 2v2 and 3v3 Arenas would be an amazing addition to the game and I wonder if this has been talked about before?

msalvia · May 2019

Dueling is pretty new to the game, so I would suspect they have at least discussed have some kind of game mode that's 1v1. I really like this idea, as the only place dueling is really supported in-game is guild events.

SacredEarth · May 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Dueling is pretty new to the game, so I would suspect they have at least discussed have some kind of game mode that's 1v1. I really like this idea, as the only place dueling is really supported in-game is guild events.

Well, I am pushing more for 2v2 and 3v3 than 1v1, but I think these 3 modes would all be popular if implemented.

wheem_ESO · May 2019

It has been talked about, by players at least, in the past. I've always been in favor of something similar to WoW's Arena system, with two teams facing off against one another (I'd also prefer BGs themselves to be between two teams, rather than three). Whether or not it'll ever happen, none of us can say, but I for one certainly hope that it does.

SacredEarth · May 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It has been talked about, by players at least, in the past. I've always been in favor of something similar to WoW's Arena system, with two teams facing off against one another (I'd also prefer BGs themselves to be between two teams, rather than three). Whether or not it'll ever happen, none of us can say, but I for one certainly hope that it does.

I hear you, different arrangements in BGs would be so refreshing... I recall have a lot more fun and way less frustration in WoW BGs.

Grimlok_S · May 2019

Unless they can punish defensive builds 2/3's would be chalk full of Reactive, Meridia's, Guard, earthgore bots + permafrosts.

WoW arenas were balanced with certain expectations of what a class can do offensively, and defensively. ESO lacks WoW's cooldowns to cap defensive power.. with so much power handed to players through sets, you'd likely end up with more of a tank meta than we're seeing today.

exeeter702 · May 2019

Grimlok_S wrote: »

Unless they can punish defensive builds 2/3's would be chalk full of Reactive, Meridia's, Guard, earthgore bots + permafrosts.

WoW arenas were balanced with certain expectations of what a class can do offensively, and defensively. ESO lacks WoW's cooldowns to cap defensive power.. with so much power handed to players through sets, you'd likely end up with more of a tank meta than we're seeing today.

This is the gist of it and something alot of players sinply dont grasp when asking for arenas in eso.

But i want to further expand on this point, as i dont believe this would be an issue if arenas were no cp,. However what makes wow arenas work the way they do is that set up and kill windows are heavily controlled by CDs and build up along with playing around trinket use (cc breaks). In eso this does not exist and what really happens is that small scale fights 99 percent of the time end up an attrition race to who will run out of resources first or whether or not you can simply overwhelm the healer with timed ults. Arena play would require fundamental shifts to how things are balanced in pvp, you couldnt simply create 3v3 pvp instances and call it a day, because under that type of focused lense, glaring issues will definitely come forward in the limelight demonstrating exactly why eso pvp has a long way to go if it ever were to desire being truly competitive.

Thogard · May 2019

Grimlok_S wrote: »

Unless they can punish defensive builds 2/3's would be chalk full of Reactive, Meridia's, Guard, earthgore bots + permafrosts.

WoW arenas were balanced with certain expectations of what a class can do offensively, and defensively. ESO lacks WoW's cooldowns to cap defensive power.. with so much power handed to players through sets, you'd likely end up with more of a tank meta than we're seeing today.

Exactly.

With BGs having three teams, having one team that uses tank / healer builds (stalemate builds) doesn’t necessarily screw over the other two teams because they can still kill each other. The team that builds to stalemate ends up losing. With three teams, your team can have the most deaths but still win if you also have the most kills.

With two teams that wouldn’t be the case. With two teams, not dying is just as important is getting kills. Even 3v3s in no Cp would end up being vulnerable to full no death stalemates because there would be no punishment for building tanky - you’d just tie.

We’ve seen this play out in the GvG community and in dueling. Sets and builds that cause stalemates are banned from dueling, and in GvG we’ve had to ban using more than one remembrance because it leads to 20 min + fight durations before a single person dies.

In Most games that isn’t a problem. But in ESO how could they fix it? This games TTK (time to kill) is already ridiculously fast.. making it even faster is not a viable solution.

Making BGs for two teams as part of the group finder will not work.

What we need is a custom lobby so that we can use the communities already in place to organize events and matches. Custom lobbies will allow us to do group vs group BGs with friends so that we can self enforce any rules we want. Stale mates won’t be a problem if everyone in the custom lobby knows each other.

But using the match making system to find an opposing team for two team BG? Yeah I’m 100% certain we’d see nothing but stalemates at even the mid MMR levels.

Fake Remedy · May 2019

Thogard wrote: »

What we need is a custom lobby so that we can use the communities already in place to organize events and matches. Custom lobbies will allow us to do group vs group BGs with friends so that we can self enforce any rules we want. Stale mates won’t be a problem if everyone in the custom lobby knows each other.

Exclusive lobbies? Are you sure that's a healthy community alternative to what we have at the moment?

SacredEarth · May 2019

Thogard wrote: »

With two teams that wouldn’t be the case. With two teams, not dying is just as important is getting kills. Even 3v3s in no Cp would end up being vulnerable to full no death stalemates because there would be no punishment for building tanky - you’d just tie.

I trust your expertise on this, but I need to see it for myself. If you build tanky, and cant do damage, then you cant pressure. Surely, a more balanced team would overcome one built purely for survival.

Thogard wrote: »

We’ve seen this play out in the GvG community and in dueling. Sets and builds that cause stalemates are banned from dueling, and in GvG we’ve had to ban using more than one remembrance because it leads to 20 min + fight durations before a single person dies.

Are you speaking of non CP builds in the GvG matches? I have read through the discord a bit, wondering how you get your Qs to work in BGs. Guessing at your MMR with premades that the pool of people playing is small enough that you get your queues to work. Back to the point, I find it distressing that you guys have proven this already...

I recall watching 3v3 WoW arena battles at the highest level going for a long time before resource pools are low enough for a kill. I would take a slower wearing down of defenses over a burst meta anyday... I tried to build a no CP health tank with Armor Master, Alessian and TK on a stam sorc... I couldn't do any damage so would eventually get overwhelmed. I tried wearing all heavy on my templar healer and had sustain issue, not to mention weak heals. I have learned a lot since then but it still seems like in non-cp it is difficult to be able to do damage, heal and sustain while being ultra tanky...

Thogard · May 2019

Fake Remedy wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

What we need is a custom lobby so that we can use the communities already in place to organize events and matches. Custom lobbies will allow us to do group vs group BGs with friends so that we can self enforce any rules we want. Stale mates won’t be a problem if everyone in the custom lobby knows each other.

Exclusive lobbies? Are you sure that's a healthy community alternative to what we have at the moment?

The people who would be removed from the groupfinder are not the people that the devs want queueing up against new PvPers anyway. I don’t think it’ll hurt the population at all.

SacredEarth wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

With two teams that wouldn’t be the case. With two teams, not dying is just as important is getting kills. Even 3v3s in no Cp would end up being vulnerable to full no death stalemates because there would be no punishment for building tanky - you’d just tie.

I trust your expertise on this, but I need to see it for myself. If you build tanky, and cant do damage, then you cant pressure. Surely, a more balanced team would overcome one built purely for survival.

Thogard wrote: »

We’ve seen this play out in the GvG community and in dueling. Sets and builds that cause stalemates are banned from dueling, and in GvG we’ve had to ban using more than one remembrance because it leads to 20 min + fight durations before a single person dies.

Are you speaking of non CP builds in the GvG matches? I have read through the discord a bit, wondering how you get your Qs to work in BGs. Guessing at your MMR with premades that the pool of people playing is small enough that you get your queues to work. Back to the point, I find it distressing that you guys have proven this already...

I recall watching 3v3 WoW arena battles at the highest level going for a long time before resource pools are low enough for a kill. I would take a slower wearing down of defenses over a burst meta anyday... I tried to build a no CP health tank with Armor Master, Alessian and TK on a stam sorc... I couldn't do any damage so would eventually get overwhelmed. I tried wearing all heavy on my templar healer and had sustain issue, not to mention weak heals. I have learned a lot since then but it still seems like in non-cp it is difficult to be able to do damage, heal and sustain while being ultra tanky...

No. Even in 1v1s, it’s easy for people to build to stalemate. In 3v3s, even in no CP, it would be easy to do. Like... really really easy. In a three team game, those teams lose because they don’t get any kills. In a two team game, then their opponents won’t get any kills either.

WoWs combat is very different than ESO. Eso doesn’t have cooldown timers on powerful defensive abilities. Instead players must choose to use defensive or offensive abilities, and using one often means they can’t use the other for a while (ie if they pop a resto ult then they can’t immediately use a meteor).

Noctus · May 2019

Thogard wrote: »

Fake Remedy wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

What we need is a custom lobby so that we can use the communities already in place to organize events and matches. Custom lobbies will allow us to do group vs group BGs with friends so that we can self enforce any rules we want. Stale mates won’t be a problem if everyone in the custom lobby knows each other.

Exclusive lobbies? Are you sure that's a healthy community alternative to what we have at the moment?

The people who would be removed from the groupfinder are not the people that the devs want queueing up against new PvPers anyway. I don’t think it’ll hurt the population at all.

SacredEarth wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

With two teams that wouldn’t be the case. With two teams, not dying is just as important is getting kills. Even 3v3s in no Cp would end up being vulnerable to full no death stalemates because there would be no punishment for building tanky - you’d just tie.

I trust your expertise on this, but I need to see it for myself. If you build tanky, and cant do damage, then you cant pressure. Surely, a more balanced team would overcome one built purely for survival.

Thogard wrote: »

We’ve seen this play out in the GvG community and in dueling. Sets and builds that cause stalemates are banned from dueling, and in GvG we’ve had to ban using more than one remembrance because it leads to 20 min + fight durations before a single person dies.

Are you speaking of non CP builds in the GvG matches? I have read through the discord a bit, wondering how you get your Qs to work in BGs. Guessing at your MMR with premades that the pool of people playing is small enough that you get your queues to work. Back to the point, I find it distressing that you guys have proven this already...

I recall watching 3v3 WoW arena battles at the highest level going for a long time before resource pools are low enough for a kill. I would take a slower wearing down of defenses over a burst meta anyday... I tried to build a no CP health tank with Armor Master, Alessian and TK on a stam sorc... I couldn't do any damage so would eventually get overwhelmed. I tried wearing all heavy on my templar healer and had sustain issue, not to mention weak heals. I have learned a lot since then but it still seems like in non-cp it is difficult to be able to do damage, heal and sustain while being ultra tanky...

No. Even in 1v1s, it’s easy for people to build to stalemate. In 3v3s, even in no CP, it would be easy to do. Like... really really easy. In a three team game, those teams lose because they don’t get any kills. In a two team game, then their opponents won’t get any kills either.

WoWs combat is very different than ESO. Eso doesn’t have cooldown timers on powerful defensive abilities. Instead players must choose to use defensive or offensive abilities, and using one often means they can’t use the other for a while (ie if they pop a resto ult then they can’t immediately use a meteor).

i agree. as i said in other threads healing and dmg mitigation go hand in hand for ur survivability. if its survivability vs dmg . survivability wins. i know builds that can tank up to 3 ppl in no cp i made my own build for that matter. put that build to a 3 man team and u wont get them to even 50 % of their hp pool and its worst in cp pvp. ZOS gotta look at the trinity. if u want to tank u shouldnt be able to heal a *** at the same time. u should be able to go for defensive builds as dps and healer to a certain extend but ur defenses or damage or heal should suffer more depending on what route u choose.

maybe cutting resources further would also solve this not sure how this should be fixed.

exeeter702 · May 2019

Noctus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Fake Remedy wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

What we need is a custom lobby so that we can use the communities already in place to organize events and matches. Custom lobbies will allow us to do group vs group BGs with friends so that we can self enforce any rules we want. Stale mates won’t be a problem if everyone in the custom lobby knows each other.

Exclusive lobbies? Are you sure that's a healthy community alternative to what we have at the moment?

The people who would be removed from the groupfinder are not the people that the devs want queueing up against new PvPers anyway. I don’t think it’ll hurt the population at all.

SacredEarth wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

With two teams that wouldn’t be the case. With two teams, not dying is just as important is getting kills. Even 3v3s in no Cp would end up being vulnerable to full no death stalemates because there would be no punishment for building tanky - you’d just tie.

I trust your expertise on this, but I need to see it for myself. If you build tanky, and cant do damage, then you cant pressure. Surely, a more balanced team would overcome one built purely for survival.

Thogard wrote: »

We’ve seen this play out in the GvG community and in dueling. Sets and builds that cause stalemates are banned from dueling, and in GvG we’ve had to ban using more than one remembrance because it leads to 20 min + fight durations before a single person dies.

Are you speaking of non CP builds in the GvG matches? I have read through the discord a bit, wondering how you get your Qs to work in BGs. Guessing at your MMR with premades that the pool of people playing is small enough that you get your queues to work. Back to the point, I find it distressing that you guys have proven this already...

I recall watching 3v3 WoW arena battles at the highest level going for a long time before resource pools are low enough for a kill. I would take a slower wearing down of defenses over a burst meta anyday... I tried to build a no CP health tank with Armor Master, Alessian and TK on a stam sorc... I couldn't do any damage so would eventually get overwhelmed. I tried wearing all heavy on my templar healer and had sustain issue, not to mention weak heals. I have learned a lot since then but it still seems like in non-cp it is difficult to be able to do damage, heal and sustain while being ultra tanky...

No. Even in 1v1s, it’s easy for people to build to stalemate. In 3v3s, even in no CP, it would be easy to do. Like... really really easy. In a three team game, those teams lose because they don’t get any kills. In a two team game, then their opponents won’t get any kills either.

WoWs combat is very different than ESO. Eso doesn’t have cooldown timers on powerful defensive abilities. Instead players must choose to use defensive or offensive abilities, and using one often means they can’t use the other for a while (ie if they pop a resto ult then they can’t immediately use a meteor).

i agree. as i said in other threads healing and dmg mitigation go hand in hand for ur survivability. if its survivability vs dmg . survivability wins. i know builds that can tank up to 3 ppl in no cp i made my own build for that matter. put that build to a 3 man team and u wont get them to even 50 % of their hp pool and its worst in cp pvp. ZOS gotta look at the trinity. if u want to tank u shouldnt be able to heal a *** at the same time. u should be able to go for defensive builds as dps and healer to a certain extend but ur defenses or damage or heal should suffer more depending on what route u choose.

maybe cutting resources further would also solve this not sure how this should be fixed.

Something akin to a diminishing debuff could work, where healing and mitigation potency will begin to slowly lessen over the course of a match as has been done to different degrees of success in other mmos.

wheem_ESO · May 2019

Thogard wrote: »

No. Even in 1v1s, it’s easy for people to build to stalemate. In 3v3s, even in no CP, it would be easy to do. Like... really really easy. In a three team game, those teams lose because they don’t get any kills. In a two team game, then their opponents won’t get any kills either.

It's not like balancing couldn't be done along the way. In fact, having an arena-styled system with two teams will make it much easier to see what some of the imbalances are, and what needs to be done to correct them.

exeeter702 · May 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

No. Even in 1v1s, it’s easy for people to build to stalemate. In 3v3s, even in no CP, it would be easy to do. Like... really really easy. In a three team game, those teams lose because they don’t get any kills. In a two team game, then their opponents won’t get any kills either.

It's not like balancing couldn't be done along the way. In fact, having an arena-styled system with two teams will make it much easier to see what some of the imbalances are, and what needs to be done to correct them.

Again, class balance under a lense is fine and did more good than harm for games like wow and swtor when they incorporated arena play in their respective timelines.

This is issue isnt only class balance. There are fundamental core systems that eso combat employs that directly works against structured arena play.

idk · May 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Dueling is pretty new to the game, so I would suspect they have at least discussed have some kind of game mode that's 1v1. I really like this idea, as the only place dueling is really supported in-game is guild events.

Dueling was added to the game about 3 years ago. It is not new by any measurement.

I seriously doubt Zos is considering BGs with 1v1. Especially since the current design is 4v4v4. I think our best hope is a 4v4 type of design. I would expect they have discussed something like that.

Dunning_Kruger · May 2019

Alright; let me drop some knowledge in here. In WoW arenas would last for an eternity as well; however Dampening exists. Just implement a dampening feature.

SacredEarth · May 2019

Since starting this thread, and hearing how there would be stalemates with no/low kills, I have been watching for evidence and I don't fully see it. keep in mind I am in pugs playing against pugs lacking the coordination of heals, buff-stacking and set synergy that would surely be used on an arena team.
Put a match timer(10-15 min) on them and if no one dies in the time allotted then give the match to the team with the most damage or some set of scoring parameters that would encourage a balanced team.
Why not try it out and see? If you don't like the idea don't Queue for it. I just think it would be a lot of fun.

Dunning_Kruger · June 2019

SacredEarth wrote: »

Since starting this thread, and hearing how there would be stalemates with no/low kills, I have been watching for evidence and I don't fully see it. keep in mind I am in pugs playing against pugs lacking the coordination of heals, buff-stacking and set synergy that would surely be used on an arena team.
Put a match timer(10-15 min) on them and if no one dies in the time allotted then give the match to the team with the most damage or some set of scoring parameters that would encourage a balanced team.
Why not try it out and see? If you don't like the idea don't Queue for it. I just think it would be a lot of fun.

There is a streamer @Thogard who does BG ladders with strong organize players. They even implement rules to help reduce issues with stalemates on max defensive ults abilities class stacking etc. in ESO since there is no dampening and defense scales ridiculously high; at high arena play it would be stalemate drawn out game boredom.

SacredEarth · June 2019

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

SacredEarth wrote: »

Since starting this thread, and hearing how there would be stalemates with no/low kills, I have been watching for evidence and I don't fully see it. keep in mind I am in pugs playing against pugs lacking the coordination of heals, buff-stacking and set synergy that would surely be used on an arena team.
Put a match timer(10-15 min) on them and if no one dies in the time allotted then give the match to the team with the most damage or some set of scoring parameters that would encourage a balanced team.
Why not try it out and see? If you don't like the idea don't Queue for it. I just think it would be a lot of fun.

There is a streamer @Thogard who does BG ladders with strong organize players. They even implement rules to help reduce issues with stalemates on max defensive ults abilities class stacking etc. in ESO since there is no dampening and defense scales ridiculously high; at high arena play it would be stalemate drawn out game boredom.

I joined the discord a month or so ago. I don't think I am at that level yet, and also, it seemed a bit toxic in there... unfortunately.

Thogard · June 2019

SacredEarth wrote: »

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

SacredEarth wrote: »

Since starting this thread, and hearing how there would be stalemates with no/low kills, I have been watching for evidence and I don't fully see it. keep in mind I am in pugs playing against pugs lacking the coordination of heals, buff-stacking and set synergy that would surely be used on an arena team.
Put a match timer(10-15 min) on them and if no one dies in the time allotted then give the match to the team with the most damage or some set of scoring parameters that would encourage a balanced team.
Why not try it out and see? If you don't like the idea don't Queue for it. I just think it would be a lot of fun.

There is a streamer @Thogard who does BG ladders with strong organize players. They even implement rules to help reduce issues with stalemates on max defensive ults abilities class stacking etc. in ESO since there is no dampening and defense scales ridiculously high; at high arena play it would be stalemate drawn out game boredom.

I joined the discord a month or so ago. I don't think I am at that level yet, and also, it seemed a bit toxic in there... unfortunately.

It’s the least toxic discord there is o.O we ban people just for accusing others of Premading lol

SacredEarth · June 2019

Thogard wrote: »

SacredEarth wrote: »

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

SacredEarth wrote: »

Since starting this thread, and hearing how there would be stalemates with no/low kills, I have been watching for evidence and I don't fully see it. keep in mind I am in pugs playing against pugs lacking the coordination of heals, buff-stacking and set synergy that would surely be used on an arena team.
Put a match timer(10-15 min) on them and if no one dies in the time allotted then give the match to the team with the most damage or some set of scoring parameters that would encourage a balanced team.
Why not try it out and see? If you don't like the idea don't Queue for it. I just think it would be a lot of fun.

There is a streamer @Thogard who does BG ladders with strong organize players. They even implement rules to help reduce issues with stalemates on max defensive ults abilities class stacking etc. in ESO since there is no dampening and defense scales ridiculously high; at high arena play it would be stalemate drawn out game boredom.

I joined the discord a month or so ago. I don't think I am at that level yet, and also, it seemed a bit toxic in there... unfortunately.

It’s the least toxic discord there is o.O we ban people just for accusing others of Premading lol

Just took a skim through the channels and I have to agree with you, pretty mellow in there. The week I joined there was a guy rage quitting and calling you a fairy or something and in another channel there was a name calling kind of argument. These, and realizing I am not yet at the level of play that was going down there stopped me form pursuing further... I take back my toxic comment, but still need to improve my play lol. btw @Thogard your YT content on ESO was some of the first I ever watched and got me into the game

PhoenixGrey · June 2019

Thogard wrote: »

SacredEarth wrote: »

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

SacredEarth wrote: »

Since starting this thread, and hearing how there would be stalemates with no/low kills, I have been watching for evidence and I don't fully see it. keep in mind I am in pugs playing against pugs lacking the coordination of heals, buff-stacking and set synergy that would surely be used on an arena team.
Put a match timer(10-15 min) on them and if no one dies in the time allotted then give the match to the team with the most damage or some set of scoring parameters that would encourage a balanced team.
Why not try it out and see? If you don't like the idea don't Queue for it. I just think it would be a lot of fun.

There is a streamer @Thogard who does BG ladders with strong organize players. They even implement rules to help reduce issues with stalemates on max defensive ults abilities class stacking etc. in ESO since there is no dampening and defense scales ridiculously high; at high arena play it would be stalemate drawn out game boredom.

I joined the discord a month or so ago. I don't think I am at that level yet, and also, it seemed a bit toxic in there... unfortunately.

It’s the least toxic discord there is o.O we ban people just for accusing others of Premading lol

Atleast I can be toxic on the forums about it. LFG is a nice way for trash players to ask for a carry.