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Tanking needs to be helped
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stpdmonkey✭✭✭)
From january I've been closely monitoring patchnotes, dev diaries, tests and researches by forum members, did a bit of testing myself. There are so many out-of-place pointless changes in PVE last half year, so my bet ZOS is focused exclusively on PVP (and from PVP-side changes of last half-year make sense in majority of cases) and PVE-side is ignored.
I don't think combat team is stupid and I don't think there is any PVE idea behind ecnhantment and root nerfs. They simply don't care. How you otherwise will justify difference in dps between stamcro and magblade? (15k)[/quote]
Pvp players complain the most. Therefore they get the changes. Which really makes no sense. Almost all the pvp players I know do not even have eso+ or pay for much of anything. But since they are the ones who voice opinions they win. Us pve players roll with the changes. This tanking cc screw is the first time I'm truly voicing my opinion. I do hope that zos figures out what players actually matter. All pve players I know have spent 100$s of dollars on in game items because we love the game and the stuff created. But everyone is upset about skill changes and stuff. I have seen alot of people angry enough to leave after years of playing. This game turns into an investment for pve players.0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »I personally enjoy being able to make non-DK tanks viable. And while I do think DK tanks are losing ground, it's not near enough to make them bad tanks. If a player has a problem using something when it's not overpowered, the problem is with the player, not the class being taken down to reasonable levels.
So you think the change makes non-DK tanks more viable? ^^ Give any thought to the fact that it's not DK talons that were nerfed, but all immobilization now gives immunity, regardless of the class? In fact, DKs will take the smallest hit because talons are relatively cheap, and non-DK tanks commonly used Time Stop... and guess what other change came in recently? Right, Time Stop cost increase. So non-DK tanks got screwed most royally in last two patches.
The tank meta is changing. It seems fair to ask that players try to change with it and hopefully create a more balanced combat environment as a result. It's rough changing from a meta that one is used to, but, at least ideally, the meta is changed to achieve better balance or to accommodate new additions to the game, so getting used to the new meta is better in the long run.
Tanks who, for example, didn't rely as heavily on CC, might be better now. Maybe DPSes will have to incorporate tactics they hadn't before because of the tank not being able to just CC everyone constantly. Maybe ZOS was just making this change for the sake of PVPers and this is an unintended effect for PVEers. Who knows - but the point is that there are plenty of fair and reasonable reasons why ZOS may have made this change.
My opinion is simply that it's 1. not that big of a deal and 2. not really a bad change in the first place, once you look at the meta as a whole and not just at Dragonknights.
Let's start with DKs being -the- meta as a whole. ^^ And the rest of your write-up is so much conjecture that I can't even. There's no such thing as "tanks that did not rely on CC" - it's not really an 'off meta build', it's just unwillingness to use one of the tools available to tanks in general to better support the group. Now this instrument got nerfed, and all tanks got poorer for it. Suppose some tanks were simply refusing to do crowd control with trash packs. If immobilization is nerfed, it won't bring those lazy people to prominence. Tank meta is not changing, just all tanks got nerfed, congratulations on that (PvP-driven, if you'll read patch notes) change. Just some tanks see the problematic trend, and some tanks who were too lazy to properly support their groups for some reason rejoice, thinking that their laziness will become mainstream. No, it won't. They'll just keep "not relying on CC" and will keep being bad tanks, while good ones will keep squeezing out the best they can out of their nerfed tools.
@CreepyPahuska , not necessary. Yes, Restraining Prison immobilizes for longer, but it's also more expensive, and in addition it isn't exactly easier to work with positioning-wise, if you'll root a mob 18 meters from you (because you had to root your freshly chained adds before chaining more, else they'll start scattering), then you didn't do much good to your DDs who can't land AoEs there. But by and large, it doesn't even matter, 2 seconds of extra root duration won't make a tank more competitive compared to others. But 3 seconds of immunity will make every single tank's life harder, on all levels, which is the whole point of conversation.0 -
erlewine✭✭✭From january I've been closely monitoring patchnotes, dev diaries, tests and researches by forum members, did a bit of testing myself. There are so many out-of-place pointless changes in PVE last half year, so my bet ZOS is focused exclusively on PVP (and from PVP-side changes of last half-year make sense in majority of cases) and PVE-side is ignored.
I don't think combat team is stupid and I don't think there is any PVE idea behind ecnhantment and root nerfs. They simply don't care. How you otherwise will justify difference in dps between stamcro and magblade? (15k)
lmao, do you think this is at all new to past 6months? magblades were the best class in the game for trials by such a comical margin that all vAS and vCR groups were either all magblades or minus 1. the game has always been wildly imbalanced.
Mag wardens have been the least played class on the leaderboards since the day they were released, by a giant margin. They are 0%-4% of the leaderboard clears, varying slightly for each trial.Edited by erlewine on June 7, 2019 10:54PMeisley the worst0 -
stpdmonkey✭✭✭The end result is that tanking which was already a hard job for those who actually do the proper job of taunting and controlling the crowds (crowd control is to limit the damage done to the rest of the group) now will have a tougher time sustaining and doing their job. If anyone happened to not worry about crowd control then their situation wont change. In the description of a tank put forth by zos crowd control is a job of the tank. That is zos' vision not mine or the mass majority. This change has hurt tanks. There are dungeons and trials that without crowd control in the past we would have not gotten the no death and or speed runs and we did have great dps and healers. Not every group will require this but the tanking position is harder now. Many tanks are going to have to adjust and use draining skills to try and compensate for this change which will affect how they perform. Many tanks I have taught how to tank end up seeing that the crowd control they were not completing makes the job easier but not a complete cake walk.1
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usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Everyone over here talking about VFL HM.
And I'm sitting over here mashing streak wondering why that was even brought up.
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CreepyPahuska✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Let's start with DKs being -the- meta as a whole. ^^ And the rest of your write-up is so much conjecture that I can't even. There's no such thing as "tanks that did not rely on CC" - it's not really an 'off meta build', it's just unwillingness to use one of the tools available to tanks in general to better support the group. Now this instrument got nerfed, and all tanks got poorer for it. Suppose some tanks were simply refusing to do crowd control with trash packs. If immobilization is nerfed, it won't bring those lazy people to prominence. Tank meta is not changing, just all tanks got nerfed, congratulations on that (PvP-driven, if you'll read patch notes) change. Just some tanks see the problematic trend, and some tanks who were too lazy to properly support their groups for some reason rejoice, thinking that their laziness will become mainstream. No, it won't. They'll just keep "not relying on CC" and will keep being bad tanks, while good ones will keep squeezing out the best they can out of their nerfed tools.
@CreepyPahuska , not necessary. Yes, Restraining Prison immobilizes for longer, but it's also more expensive, and in addition it isn't exactly easier to work with positioning-wise, if you'll root a mob 18 meters from you (because you had to root your freshly chained adds before chaining more, else they'll start scattering), then you didn't do much good to your DDs who can't land AoEs there. But by and large, it doesn't even matter, 2 seconds of extra root duration won't make a tank more competitive compared to others. But 3 seconds of immunity will make every single tank's life harder, on all levels, which is the whole point of conversation.
There's a difference between "tanks that did not rely on CC" and "tanks who did not rely as heavily on CC". Some classes just can't rely on CC as much as other classes, because the tools they have at their disposal aren't as efficient. It's a simple fact, not an 'off meta build' of some sort.
About restraining prison, where have you seen that it's more expensive ? I'm not a DK expert, but if I trust UESP, Talons have a 4050 base cost, and restraining prison has a 4050 base cost (3848 with unholy knowledge). With all cost reductions applied, mine actually costs 3483, and I can assure you I'm overabusing this skill, and I've never been OOM from doing so.
Now about positioning... yes it's a corridor pattern, so if you're trying to use it like a player centered CC skill, you're doing it wrong. I'm not gonna make you a tutorial on how to make a nice little round pack of mobs, cause that would be off topic, but it works fine. You just have to use it differently.
Now my point about restraining prison was just to bring an example to correct what you said in the message I quoted, nothing more. I think you're speaking a lot about things that you don't know that much. In my opinion, you should try to be more open-minded about game changes & other classes, it can only do you good. This change is not a bad change, and it's not a big change either. TBH, before reading this I didn't even noticed that there was a root immunity on mobs...1 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »profundidob16_ESO wrote: »stpdmonkey wrote: »There needs to be some fix for the fact that crowd control ability just got completely screwed. The dragonknight has been the tanking class for years. I'm all for making it easier to use other classes but quit making it harder to tank on the most used tank class. Making a delay between claws has completely screwed any ability to crowd control. The slows dont do enough at all and group mates get hit by alot more now. Which makes it harder on the healer who is usually trying very hard already. And add on the fact that earthgore was made almost useless that increases the difficulty. A tank is now only helpful when it comes to bosses. This needs to be fixed. Give us some sort of taunt for trash adds at the very least. There needs to be
oh common you have more than enough basic cc on a dk tank to combine into a useful scenario for any situation. Use your brain a bit. It's not exactly like you're some stupid monkey right ?
You sure he's the one who should start using brain? Or eyes, for that matter - if you'll read the thread carefully, you'll learn that starting from this update, it doesn't matter how many skills you have in class, because any root will give mobs a period of immobilization immunity - no matter what skill you'll try to use, they'll be immune against it.
That is a good point. Tanks will pretty much use the non immunity uptime, and if another role uses it, mobs are not rooted, and no talons synergy too.0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CreepyPahuska wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »Let's start with DKs being -the- meta as a whole. ^^ And the rest of your write-up is so much conjecture that I can't even. There's no such thing as "tanks that did not rely on CC" - it's not really an 'off meta build', it's just unwillingness to use one of the tools available to tanks in general to better support the group. Now this instrument got nerfed, and all tanks got poorer for it. Suppose some tanks were simply refusing to do crowd control with trash packs. If immobilization is nerfed, it won't bring those lazy people to prominence. Tank meta is not changing, just all tanks got nerfed, congratulations on that (PvP-driven, if you'll read patch notes) change. Just some tanks see the problematic trend, and some tanks who were too lazy to properly support their groups for some reason rejoice, thinking that their laziness will become mainstream. No, it won't. They'll just keep "not relying on CC" and will keep being bad tanks, while good ones will keep squeezing out the best they can out of their nerfed tools.
@CreepyPahuska , not necessary. Yes, Restraining Prison immobilizes for longer, but it's also more expensive, and in addition it isn't exactly easier to work with positioning-wise, if you'll root a mob 18 meters from you (because you had to root your freshly chained adds before chaining more, else they'll start scattering), then you didn't do much good to your DDs who can't land AoEs there. But by and large, it doesn't even matter, 2 seconds of extra root duration won't make a tank more competitive compared to others. But 3 seconds of immunity will make every single tank's life harder, on all levels, which is the whole point of conversation.
There's a difference between "tanks that did not rely on CC" and "tanks who did not rely as heavily on CC". Some classes just can't rely on CC as much as other classes, because the tools they have at their disposal aren't as efficient. It's a simple fact, not an 'off meta build' of some sort.
About restraining prison, where have you seen that it's more expensive ? I'm not a DK expert, but if I trust UESP, Talons have a 4050 base cost, and restraining prison has a 4050 base cost (3848 with unholy knowledge). With all cost reductions applied, mine actually costs 3483, and I can assure you I'm overabusing this skill, and I've never been OOM from doing so.
Now about positioning... yes it's a corridor pattern, so if you're trying to use it like a player centered CC skill, you're doing it wrong. I'm not gonna make you a tutorial on how to make a nice little round pack of mobs, cause that would be off topic, but it works fine. You just have to use it differently.
Now my point about restraining prison was just to bring an example to correct what you said in the message I quoted, nothing more. I think you're speaking a lot about things that you don't know that much. In my opinion, you should try to be more open-minded about game changes & other classes, it can only do you good. This change is not a bad change, and it's not a big change either. TBH, before reading this I didn't even noticed that there was a root immunity on mobs...
Another site reports 3654 base cost, but let's assume, I'm not in the game yet to double-check. And if you're compensating with skill for deficiencies of your skill - that is, having to watch so in the directions you're looking there wouldn't be any far-standing mobs, and also having to move on one side of the group instead of standing in the middle while rooting them - it doesn't mean you're exactly at advantage. You have more positioning work with Prison.
And I'm sorry, but by saying "you should try to be open-minded" now, you're showing that you don't really know about what you're talking about. This change doesn't give nearly as much advantage to sorc tanks as much as it takes away utility from all tanks across the board, but you're giddy that you've been hit a little lighter than others. Also, if you didn't notice there was root immunity? What can I say. Shows that you didn't try vFL HM, for instance. That's about speaking of things you don't know that much.0 -
DemonDruaga✭✭✭✭I usualy make sure to grab initial aggro with some sort of placeable aoe.
Eruption or caltrops, on my necro I was using the ice aoe/ debuff.
With this, most melees will run to you anyways, where you can alternate between root and stun to hold them in place, use chains to pull the few range enemies, and yeah. I usualy just taunt the 1 or 2 heavy hitters to make sure my mates don't get one shot.
Ardor // Dunkelsicht // Pakt1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I didn't read all the comments but did read the first few, and found one that triggered me. "This will make non dk tanks more viable" <--- this.
The change to immobilize f***ed up sorc tanks more. If you want more viability for other tanks, maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't have nerfed time stop. Which i was even using on my dk tank cause it was just a better option than talons. Now nb and templars dont have a viable cc option (i tried using the fear on nb, for some reason it didn't work on beetles in vFL. Maybe i was too far away, even though the beetle was killing me. Idk how i am supposed to tank it on nb in hm, as much as running around the whole arena while the frost wall is all over the place, it ain't a solution. Probably try shenanigans with the shadow archer, but it aint supposed to be a thing.
Also, please remember, that this discussion, is focused on dungeons. So for anyone saying that it is not as important to tank, i agree, unless you are pugging. When you are pugging, you need it. You need the cc. You need the control. Because pugs are silly. I will give an example of the last dlc i pugged, i agroed and pulled all adds but one into a small group. The one behind the wall was behind a wall and couldn't be pulled. I will let you guess where one of the dds were fighting, hint, behind the wall. Essentially making him stay behind the wall, and ignoring the fact that he could damage all the other adds with AoEs. I can go and continue giving examples from all the dungeons i pugged. Worst thing is that usually when you say something, they bite back at you for being elitist or something like that. Or that you need to chill down
i have long since lowered my talking in chat in dungeons, just because of people like that. And all the changes to skills because of pvp really help me control the chaos created by the average pug (sarcasm).
Also @John_Falstaff how dare you diss restraining prison it is superior to talons in every way. sorc master class.Edited by zvavi on June 8, 2019 11:26AM0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
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Pfft aware, not a solution. Cant target them well with the huge dragon on the way. end up running around the whole arena with wall on ground in my way. which is again a thing i dont think a good tank should do with that boss. I honestly found the shadow archer shenanigans more useful, (roll dodge beetle, place shadow, place wall, run around the dragon where the wall road is, wait till beetles catch up, teleport back)Edited by zvavi on June 8, 2019 11:42AM0 -
CreepyPahuska✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Shows that you didn't try vFL HM, for instance. That's about speaking of things you don't know that much.
I was actually in vFL HM yesterday morning, cause it was the daily, and the shalks weren't a problem at all. Who's talking about thing he doesn't know about ?
Now as I said, my point about Prison wasn't to say "hey, look sorc tanks are the best", but simply to answer a message of yours.
I get it that I did hurt your DK Tank ego. You're free to keep whining and keep your blinders for all I care. All I'm saying is that I'd rather see the positive side rather than cry about the nerf. If this nerf can teach the DDs to focus the right mobs and not wander too far from the packs, that's very positive to me.
Edited by CreepyPahuska on June 8, 2019 12:14PM0 -
Shaiba✭✭✭Hello everyone
I just checked this morning. @CreepyPahuska is right about the fact that talons cost more than prison. Please don't assume facts you haven't checked before, it can and will mislead other players.John_Falstaff wrote: »Another site reports 3654 base cost, but let's assume, I'm not in the game yet to double-check.
Here again you assume things you know nothing about, we just did it yesterday morning... He was on his sorc tank.. K thx bye. You lost whatever credibility you had left.John_Falstaff wrote: »Shows that you didn't try vFL HM, for instance.
Nothing more to add. Would be good if people stop talking about things they know nothing about, the discussion would be way more interesting.
About the problem with root immunity, tell your group members what they have to focus first (if they're beginner or don't know the instance for example). It won't be a problem for vet dungeon (even DLC one), trash adds shouldn't last more than 4 (or 6) secs imo (yeah especially the shalk in vFL who die reaaaaalllly quickly cause of the aoes on the ground).
And yeah, I agree, maybe some things will be harder to do, but I don't see any problem with that (that's my opinion).Edited by Shaiba on June 8, 2019 12:17PMI play all Healers in endgame content but my main is my Khajiit Nightblade.
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Shaiba , @CreepyPahuska , you two have no credibility in my eyes now; for all I know, you're trying to wiggle out by talking crap now. Or you're representing the kind of trash tanks that drag Thurvokun all over the place avoiding shalks. In which case, I'm also not interested in listening to the kind of tanks that don't have anything to contribute to actual, you know, tanking, as opposed to running around like headless chickens instead of supporting your group.
The attitude "well, one more part of my job off my shoulders, I'll just tell DDs to work harder" is hardly an attitude of a good support role. But keep going.
@zvavi , right. ^^ Majestic sorcs. ^^0 -
CreepyPahuska✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »for all I know
But you know nothing, john sno... ehem... falstaff
I think we are actually representing the kind of tanks that discuss with their DD (that are actually not headless chickens running around, focusing random stuff) about how to go about things. Strats in vet dungeons, etc...
Personnally, I think that the attitude "please don't nerf, my DDs have crappy DPS and run all around, scattering the mobs during the root immunity" is hardly an attitude of a good player. We can't just base the evolution of the game based on PUGs
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CreepyPahuska wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »for all I know
But you know nothing, john sno... ehem... falstaff
I think we are actually representing the kind of tanks that discuss with their DD (that are actually not headless chickens running around, focusing random stuff) about how to go about things. Strats in vet dungeons, etc...
Personnally, I think that the attitude "please don't nerf, my DDs have crappy DPS and run all around, scattering the mobs during the root immunity" is hardly an attitude of a good player. We can't just base the evolution of the game based on PUGs
You know nothing too, creepy fellow, but you're making assumptions still.
And now you're making assumptions about your groups. Not all your damage dealers will have good damage, and you won't be able to fix it for them ad-hoc right in the dungeon. Or if you mean that you run only in premade groups without vastly varying degree of skill - then it only means you can't judge about the nerf objectively since you're not in contact with a large part of the player base (and in fact the part that's affected most). PUGs are out there, and we have to take them into consideration. If one shrugs off the nerf, saying that 'well, then we'll only be working with DDs who are capable of burning things through' - why, it's not a base for game evolution either. Rich tanking toolkit is part of the gap between lower end and experienced people.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lets just close the hitting each other with vFL hm thing, also sorc has unfair advantage in that fight cause sorcs are master class. Some feel that the nerf makes them lack tools. Others run with premades instead of pugs and find no problems. All is good guys, we all just want to enjoy the game. It is just that for tanks with a less experienced groups, the nerf hurts. Sorc master class.0 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭The meta has not changed. A tank that tries to group will still be the most helpful tank possible. They will just be inferior at it.
This isn’t just a root issue, but the combination of the roots plus the snares becoming useless at 30%.
This will barely hurt groups with extremely skilled damage dealers. They will know to keep very close so that when a creature wanders it only wanders a few feet. Plus they will kill fast so few things get the chance to wander.
This change will crucify groups with bad DD players as tanks will not be able to help them. Groups that kill slow, run from group trying to flee aggro, etc. will become unbearable.
This will be seen as good to lazy tanks that always refused to do their jobs. Because they will pretend ZOS is vindicating their play style when really ZOS was trying to fix PvP.
If you think good crowd control was cheese you show you don’t know crap about tanking. Throwing out patches of aoe for aggro, while keeping taunts on primary threat, chaining in adds, all while weaving in select snare AOEs and roots to manage the pile while continuing to chain in adds and refresh taunt on primary threats....if you try to present that as spamming talons for easy mode, you’ve shown me you don’t know how to tank.Edited by BejaProphet on June 8, 2019 1:39PMRoyal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest4 -
stpdmonkey✭✭✭Zos could have easily make the snare or roots affect only players and not adds differently. This is something they have done with other skills. But the choice to include pve content is truly the whole thing I started this thread about. Plenty of dungeons and trials do have an aspect of where crowd control is important. It is not a necessity but definitely important. If you cant do as zos has said as a tank then the content they release is affected. This is zos going against what they tell you to do. I see that people are saying it was mostly a battlegrounds issue. I never saw the issue. On my own tank I couldn't keep people rooted. And on my dps or healer no one has ever been able to keep me rooted. The small amount they had me rooted may have resulted in many deaths but the use of roots over and over was not an issue.
Right now we are dealing with a game that the creators are saying it is your job as a tank to crowd control. But then removing any ability to effectively do that job. Anyone who runs alot of pve content knows that high odds are not everywhere and alot of those who run dungeons do not have said dps. This creates many new tanks that will have to learn what a tanks job is. They are going to be looking to descriptions of a tank and how to work them. Of course one of the first they will see is zos description and then they will wonder how its possible and think they suck. Even tho they are actually doing all the work they are supposed to. A more experienced tank will be able to figure out a work around of sorts. And dps will change strategy. But that does not mean that any solution players come up with will ever be as effective.0 -
erlewine✭✭✭
Pfft aware, not a solution. Cant target them well with the huge dragon on the way. end up running around the whole arena with wall on ground in my way. which is again a thing i dont think a good tank should do with that boss. I honestly found the shadow archer shenanigans more useful, (roll dodge beetle, place shadow, place wall, run around the dragon where the wall road is, wait till beetles catch up, teleport back)
Sounds like your group needs to kill them faster. I've tanked perfect run (speed, hardmode, no death whatever) a few times with 3 dps using ice staff and just dropped blockade as they spawned and ran away and they were dead in a few seconds. I agree it's incredibly hard on the tank if the dps leave them up for a long time.
Everything in this game sort of branches out from one major thing: DPS in this game is insanely high, and there's an insane range between the typical lower skilled person and the top end. It's a massive range, and the game has to be "balanced" around that as much as they can. Tanking in this game has progressed to this point where you can do any dungeon with no healer because it's also progresed to a point where everything dies so fast. I mean, OP's threads just seem so foreign to me it's like he's playing an entirely different game. The idea of monsters living long enough that root even wears off is utterly out of my known context of this video game.Edited by erlewine on June 8, 2019 9:15PMeisley the worst2 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
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Pfft aware, not a solution. Cant target them well with the huge dragon on the way. end up running around the whole arena with wall on ground in my way. which is again a thing i dont think a good tank should do with that boss. I honestly found the shadow archer shenanigans more useful, (roll dodge beetle, place shadow, place wall, run around the dragon where the wall road is, wait till beetles catch up, teleport back)
Sounds like your group needs to kill them faster. I've tanked perfect run (speed, hardmode, no death whatever) a few times with 3 dps using ice staff and just dropped blockade as they spawned and ran away and they were dead in a few seconds. I agree it's incredibly hard on the tank if the dps leave them up for a long time.
Everything in this game sort of branches out from one major thing: DPS in this game is insanely high, and there's an insane range between the typical lower skilled person and the top end. It's a massive range, and the game has to be "balanced" around that as much as they can. Tanking in this game has progressed to this point where you can do any dungeon with no healer because it's also progresed to a point where everything dies so fast. I mean, OP's threads just seem so foreign to me it's like he's playing an entirely different game. The idea of monsters living long enough that root even wears off is utterly out of my known context of this video game.
I pug my dlc dungeons. I prefer the beetles to die from their 10 sec timer and dds focus on crystals and bone colossus's0 -
Spartabunny08✭✭✭✭For the first time I'm ahead of the nerf. Looks like werewolf tanks just became relevant. Seems tanks don't crowd control anymore, what is the point. Now everyone just runs werewolves no need for crowd control with werewolves everything just dies. Been enjoying very much my DK werewolf tank build, a lot more than the necro I'm trying now. I didn't even know about the crowd control change because necro doesn't have any at least in that direction I'm aware of. Wrt are they doing? Werewolf tank it is then, was just a personal fun thing for myself didn't see this coming lol.0
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DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's a shame to see how many skills of DKs have been twisted and made far less fun and interesting in the name of PvP.0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The woes of endgame PvE isn't about completion it's about leaderboards. PvE balancing should take a backseat to PvP balancing since imbalances in PvP are way more destructive than imbalances in PvE.
A lot of PvEers like to use PvP balancing as an excuse for their incompetence when the issue is their build, skill, or team composition.
And you wanna hear the beauty of losing power in PvE? The other trials guilds you're competing against also lost power.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Spartabunny08 wrote: »For the first time I'm ahead of the nerf. Looks like werewolf tanks just became relevant. Seems tanks don't crowd control anymore, what is the point. Now everyone just runs werewolves no need for crowd control with werewolves everything just dies. Been enjoying very much my DK werewolf tank build, a lot more than the necro I'm trying now. I didn't even know about the crowd control change because necro doesn't have any at least in that direction I'm aware of. Wrt are they doing? Werewolf tank it is then, was just a personal fun thing for myself didn't see this coming lol.
Werewolf tank can be a thing when werewolves can taunt to hold aggro, unless I've just been really unlucky with the Werewolf "tanks" I've met because they couldn't/didn't hold aggro.0 -
satanio✭✭✭✭The woes of endgame PvE isn't about completion it's about leaderboards. PvE balancing should take a backseat to PvP balancing since imbalances in PvP are way more destructive than imbalances in PvE.
A lot of PvEers like to use PvP balancing as an excuse for their incompetence when the issue is their build, skill, or team composition.
And you wanna hear the beauty of losing power in PvE? The other trials guilds you're competing against also lost power.
Well, definition of endgame could differ for everyone, it's not for you to decide. Them top tanks easily get over the new nerfs.
But new tanks - beginners, who see their endgame as vMOL or vFL hm, just get hurt with every nerf to that role, thus making them dislike the role. As a result, more nerfs to tanking produce less tanks in PvE. Do we want that? I hope not.
How many dedicated tanks do you have in your PvE guild? What is the ratio to DD or Healers? I'll say in mine it's 1:12 DD, and 1:2 HEALERS
Are there any aspiring tanks that just left the role cause of nerfed gameplay? I know of two. How many new tanks have came into your guild during the last 2 years? To mine 2.
All of this, while number of DDs is rising.
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Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The woes of endgame PvE isn't about completion it's about leaderboards. PvE balancing should take a backseat to PvP balancing since imbalances in PvP are way more destructive than imbalances in PvE.
A lot of PvEers like to use PvP balancing as an excuse for their incompetence when the issue is their build, skill, or team composition.
And you wanna hear the beauty of losing power in PvE? The other trials guilds you're competing against also lost power.
Well, definition of endgame could differ for everyone, it's not for you to decide. Them top tanks easily get over the new nerfs.
But new tanks - beginners, who see their endgame as vMOL or vFL hm, just get hurt with every nerf to that role, thus making them dislike the role. As a result, more nerfs to tanking produce less tanks in PvE. Do we want that? I hope not.
How many dedicated tanks do you have in your PvE guild? What is the ratio to DD or Healers? I'll say in mine it's 1:12 DD, and 1:2 HEALERS
Are there any aspiring tanks that just left the role cause of nerfed gameplay? I know of two. How many new tanks have came into your guild during the last 2 years? To mine 2.
All of this, while number of DDs is rising.
If people want to tank they're going to tank. This change isn't going to make people all of a sudden want to give up tanking. Also saying people aren't going to want to perform a certain role because it's difficult only applies to mentally weak people that hate to be challenged. You're not considering the players that actually enjoy to be challenged, and will be inspired to perform a certain role due to its increased difficulty.
Truthfully this is why I have a tank and a DPS; because some content is more difficult/enjoyable to tank, and some content is more difficult/enjoyable to DPS. Healing to me is mindlessly easy so I deleted my healer a long time ago.3 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭There has to be room for us to say, “Hey, this is a really bad move for tanking,” without everybody acting like we are declaring the apocalypse.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0