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Suggestion: FFXIV Job System
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KappaKid83 wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »I have always been a fan of how Final Fantasy MMOs have handled this job role. Example, in FFXI you could be any job but also slot a sub job up to half your max level. So you would have a level 50 Paladin and be able to have white mage(healer) be your secondary job and it be capped at 25 for you level 50. So the incentive to level other jobs was definitely real. In FFXIV you don't have the sub jobs but like you said being able to switch between any job with a soul gem is so incredibly convenient.
I do not think the landscape of this game will ever do this, it would take a complete overhaul, but it is a novel idea.
It wouldn't take an overhaul in the sense of redesigning the entire game.
Since classes interact with no other aspect of the game (other than Necros and Justice) the transition to the new system would be pretty painless in terms of that.
I could see issues with the respec and CP system but they could do it 1 of 2 ways:
1. Refund everything invested into class skills upon swap (or give the option, so a surpluss of skill points can just be left into the class and have the skills "disabled").
2. Leave all skill points where they are upon swap. If I have 20 points into Sorcerer I'm just down 20 points on DK. My Sorc passives would just be disabled.
For CP:
1. Leave as-is
2. Give us class-specific loadouts (6 different ways to spend CP)
I like the ideas at the core but I think it would be a tough task and most definitely some sort of redesign that would take a team maybe a year or more to implement.
I am on your side here though, I have played more FFXI and FFXIV than I care to admit, FFXI got me through college and the 24 hour sessions were real, but ESO feels and is different. I would love to see the FF system instilled in every MMO though because like you said it takes the account wide achievement arguments and throws them out the window and makes the grind of Sky Shards and Mage Books null and void which most people seem to not want to do over and over and over for each class and each spec of the class(Mag/Stam/Tank/Hybrid).
It would be a tall order but ZOS has done massive reworks before. Tamriel Unlimited, One Tamriel, etc
Both mistakes in my honest opinion, but it does show they're willing to do massive overhaulsValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
david_m_18b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭This game would have zero replay value.
FF have near infinite vertical progression while eso is mostly horizontal.
Also pretty much every stam dps ise the exact same gear unlike FF. If you have fully equiped a stam dk for PvE then switching to stam nec would use the same weapons, set and enchant. Basicaly your nec will be left with nothing to do once he reach lvl 50.Edited by david_m_18b16_ESO on June 4, 2019 7:05PM0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »This game would have zero replay value.
FF have near infinite vertical progression while eso is mostly horizontal.
Also pretty much every stam dps ise the exact same gear unlike FF. If you have fully equiped a stam dk for PvE then switching to stam nec would use the same weapons, set and enchant. Basicaly your nec will be left with nothing to do once he reach lvl 50.
A lot of people don't make alts yet still play.
Those people will automatically play more due to being able to experience other classes. Especially the players who play PvP since the PvP experience is quite differentValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »I dislike the fact that im able to swich to any class in ff14 my character is a ninja why would he sudenly be a bard it make no sense at all
I can play guitar and drums...not like I forget how to play guitar when I pick up my drum sticks o.O0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unfortunately that also eliminates the need for players to buy Crown Store items such as experience scrolls, riding lessons for speed, capacity or stamina, crafting scrolls, or skyshards. And with that in mind no-one at ZOS will even remotely consider such a change.
It also eliminates the need for repeating content and players repeating content is needed for an MMO to survive.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Apox✭✭✭✭✭*** yes. the fewer times i have to grind undaunted fightrers guild ages guild vigor caltrops warhorn barrier the better
im on the verge of race changing my breton dk to khajiit or something because i cannot handle one more fighter guild/undaunted/assault grind
assault is *** ridiculous to have a required dps skill to use in your pve rotation, one that is also incredibly niche for pvp, in a pvp skill line
but then again how would zos make money by exploiting peoples frustration for having to do the same *** over and over again for cash money0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Unfortunately that also eliminates the need for players to buy Crown Store items such as experience scrolls, riding lessons for speed, capacity or stamina, crafting scrolls, or skyshards. And with that in mind no-one at ZOS will even remotely consider such a change.
It also eliminates the need for repeating content and players repeating content is needed for an MMO to survive.
Not really. Different classes still need different gear. Plenty of people play without alts. Not to mention plenty of content people repeat just for the sake of repeating like raids, PvP, daily dungeons etc for no real reason other than to do themValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »
RPGs are more than just RP? They're about building up your character more than anything else. Even when you're not "Roleplaying" (BEING your character) you're still "Playing the role" of that character and that included building them up to be the best they can be.Edited by Valrien on June 4, 2019 9:04PMValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've suggested this before as well.
ZOS is afraid that people will stop playing the game if they let them switch classes.
But FFXIV is proof that their fears are unfounded. It's just as popular as ESO, if not even more.
I have 2 fully geared characters in this game. The only reason I have a second one is because warden wasn't available when I started playing, otherwise, I'd still only have 1 class. Repeating content to level up alts is a complete waste of time for me. I play games to have fun, and spending 50+ hours doing the same content over and over again on each new character isn't my idea of a good time. There are plenty of other things I would rather be doing.Edited by MLGProPlayer on June 4, 2019 11:41PM1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unfortunately that also eliminates the need for players to buy Crown Store items such as experience scrolls, riding lessons for speed, capacity or stamina, crafting scrolls, or skyshards. And with that in mind no-one at ZOS will even remotely consider such a change.
This just highlights the greedy system that ESO runs on. The experience of the player is sacrificed for the profits of the company
None of those things he listed is a "need" - they're all things to charge lazy players to avoid playing the game.
(And they're certainly not an aspect of defined & non-changeable classes - most games have operated that way for decades.)
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Yes, the FF job system is an interesting game mechanic.... but it's that game's mechanic, not this one's. And that's fine - I wouldn't want to play a game that just implements whatever "hey, that's cool!" feature of any game that happens by.
And changable jobs seems like a core feature that you'd have to base your design around, not crowbar into an established game at a later time.
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SirAxen✭✭✭✭✭I think that system is fundamentally ignorant so I definitely would leave ESO if it came here. However, to each their own.0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think that system is fundamentally ignorant so I definitely would leave ESO if it came here. However, to each their own.
"Fundamentally ignorant"
That doesn't even make sense in this context but I'd love to hear your reasonings so that we can have a meaningful discussion @SirAxenValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
bulbousb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't disagree with you, but being the best they can be is not something that should be thought of in numerical terms.RPGs are more than just RP? They're about building up your character more than anything else. Even when you're not "Roleplaying" (BEING your character) you're still "Playing the role" of that character and that included building them up to be the best they can be.
Anyway, I am very curious as to how much work you think this would take - whether you think such a redesign would be even be possible for an existing game.Lethal zergling0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »
I don't disagree with you, but being the best they can be is not something that should be thought of in numerical terms.RPGs are more than just RP? They're about building up your character more than anything else. Even when you're not "Roleplaying" (BEING your character) you're still "Playing the role" of that character and that included building them up to be the best they can be.
Anyway, I am very curious as to how much work you think this would take - whether you think such a redesign would be even be possible for an existing game.
I think it would take a fair amount of work, but no more than ZOS has done for a DLC (they could forgo doing dungeons and focus an entire quarter on that, like they did for Homestead).
Whether it's possible that entirely depends on how well ZOS is capable of implementing it. Early on it would have been much easier, due to the fact that the game has changed hands so many times and I doubt many people from the launch are on the team.
In short, yes it's possible, but it's much harder than it could be due to spaghetti code.
To address your first point, this isn't about numerical terms or minmaxing or anything at all. Min-maxing is a byproduct of this because if this system came to be we could have the classes be more specialized again and switch classes depending on what we want to do but overall it's just about the freedom. I think the job system would embody the Elder Scrolls spirit much better than anything in the game currently (One Tamriel would have been great, but it made zones boring and flat-out broke the story progression...not very Elder Scrolls
). You have that freedom to do whatever you want, learn whatever you want.
TL;DR for this point: Numbers and min-maxing are a byproduct of this, but it's more about presonal freedom and allowing your character to growValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I really hope this thread gains some more traction. I don't want it to get buried under all the complaintsValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭where would you get the XP to level up when everything is done on the first one?
So your Sorc goes to 50/810
Now you gotta find XP for the DK, Warden, Templar, Necro, and NB to All get to 50?
You say it like it's nothing, but where you gonna find all the XP? Can't do quests over again. Sound like a Whole big bunch of repetitive grinding the same stuff.
And where you gonna spend your skill points? Vampire or WW or Psjijiic or Guilds etc all need points if you got them
And what about crafting? How many skill points that gonna need?
Edited by barney2525 on June 5, 2019 2:33AM0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
They don't consider any ideas unless they can sell it so I'm not surprised there.
I visit here because I'm still passionate about what this game was and what it could still be but I'm really not happy with the current state it's in
Everything is about that gosh darn Crown Store. The Crown Store isn't inherently bad but they sell EVERYTHING for an insane price. ESO sells race changes for a whopping 25 dollars! Skyshards for 8 per zone. It gets oldValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »where would you get the XP to level up when everything is done on the first one?
So your Sorc goes to 50/810
Now you gotta find XP for the DK, Warden, Templar, Necro, and NB to All get to 50?
You say it like it's nothing, but where you gonna find all the XP? Can't do quests over again. Sound like a Whole big bunch of repetitive grinding the same stuff.
And where you gonna spend your skill points? Vampire or WW or Psjijiic or Guilds etc all need points if you got them
And what about crafting? How many skill points that gonna need?
1. There are plenty of quests in this game out in the world, and now the entire world is synced to CP160 so you could start right where you left off with any class at any level. Somehow done all of the quests? You still have your daily dungeons to do which are great exp. You can level every class without grinding. The same can be said for FFXIV
2. Skill points. Non-class skill points would stay the same. If you have Dawnbreaker you have Dawnbreaker on every class unless you respec it out. Same goes for crafting and weapon skill lines (if ZOS really wanted to they could lock weapon skill lines to character level. E.g., you can only use up to the level 30 skills if you're level 30). Only thing that changes is your class skills.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Jack of all trades, master of none. Admittedly, I've never played any ff outside of the first one on nes, but let's let ff be ff, and eso be ESO.
The jack of all trades concept doesn't even make in-context sense here. Also the "lets let ff be ff and eso be eso" logic doesn't quite make much sense either. MMOs take inspiration from other's systems all the time and in this case, it'd be a very much welcomed addition to ESO.
I don't exactly see what is wrong with being able to level 1-50 each class on a single character as long as there is a class quest or something to introduce your char to such.
Also using our big-brains here, guess what that would introduce? oooooh thats right, class quests that have NPC characters actually acknowledge what our PC characters are and could add further development and immersion! Truly something you don't want in an MMO, I guess.
(What im getting at here is asking for a job system like FF's isn't bad at all and people who, for some ungodly reason don't want such ((even though it doesn't affect them whatsoever)), are wrong.)0 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭barney2525 wrote: »where would you get the XP to level up when everything is done on the first one?
So your Sorc goes to 50/810
Now you gotta find XP for the DK, Warden, Templar, Necro, and NB to All get to 50?
You say it like it's nothing, but where you gonna find all the XP? Can't do quests over again. Sound like a Whole big bunch of repetitive grinding the same stuff.
And where you gonna spend your skill points? Vampire or WW or Psjijiic or Guilds etc all need points if you got them
And what about crafting? How many skill points that gonna need?
You are aware of how many quests there are in the game right?
There are easily enough quests in the game to level multiple characters to 50, even easier since it all scales.0 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Jack of all trades, master of none. Admittedly, I've never played any ff outside of the first one on nes, but let's let ff be ff, and eso be ESO.
The jack of all trades concept doesn't even make in-context sense here. Also the "lets let ff be ff and eso be eso" logic doesn't quite make much sense either. MMOs take inspiration from other's systems all the time and in this case, it'd be a very much welcomed addition to ESO.
I don't exactly see what is wrong with being able to level 1-50 each class on a single character as long as there is a class quest or something to introduce your char to such.
Also using our big-brains here, guess what that would introduce? oooooh thats right, class quests that have NPC characters actually acknowledge what our PC characters are and could add further development and immersion! Truly something you don't want in an MMO, I guess.
(What im getting at here is asking for a job system like FF's isn't bad at all and people who, for some ungodly reason don't want such ((even though it doesn't affect them whatsoever)), are wrong.)
So you're saying this would be optional? If so, that's fine. If not, no thanks. I prefer ESO unadulterated by FF whatever, a game that's absolutely not my idea of any kind of fun.0 -
ManwithBeard9✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭barney2525 wrote: »where would you get the XP to level up when everything is done on the first one?
So your Sorc goes to 50/810
Now you gotta find XP for the DK, Warden, Templar, Necro, and NB to All get to 50?
You say it like it's nothing, but where you gonna find all the XP? Can't do quests over again. Sound like a Whole big bunch of repetitive grinding the same stuff.
And where you gonna spend your skill points? Vampire or WW or Psjijiic or Guilds etc all need points if you got them
And what about crafting? How many skill points that gonna need?
1. There are plenty of quests in this game out in the world, and now the entire world is synced to CP160 so you could start right where you left off with any class at any level. Somehow done all of the quests? You still have your daily dungeons to do which are great exp. You can level every class without grinding. The same can be said for FFXIV
2. Skill points. Non-class skill points would stay the same. If you have Dawnbreaker you have Dawnbreaker on every class unless you respec it out. Same goes for crafting and weapon skill lines (if ZOS really wanted to they could lock weapon skill lines to character level. E.g., you can only use up to the level 30 skills if you're level 30). Only thing that changes is your class skills.
So you're grinding one character every time instead of a different character that you can customize the look of. You're also forgetting if you have one character learning ever class skill line then you're locked into one set of racials. You're hindering yourself by pigeon holing yourself into one race. You're also making it more labor intensive and clogging up your own inventory with any gear you'd want to swap out to when changing classes. It's easier and quicker to grind up a new character with the exact racials you want and can then keep all gear on that character instead of your bank or backpack. So instead of logging out to a swap to a different character you have to sit there and micromanage your skills and gear to swap out.
And no, developing a "class change" of sorts would not be easy or quick to do. They would have to rewrite how every character works. How every character levels. How every class levels. How progress would pick up if you swap before you max everything. At that point, they might was well just make FF14.1 -
bulbousb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, that's just a fact of life. No one wants to put a ton of effort in to something people don't want. Some people might like your ideas, for sure. They are interesting. But there is no way there is a business case for making such a sweeping change, so really you're just playing a fun "what if" game.They don't consider any ideas unless they can sell it so I'm not surprised there.
Lethal zergling1 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »
Well, that's just a fact of life. No one wants to put a ton of effort in to something people don't want. Some people might like your ideas, for sure. They are interesting. But there is no way there is a business case for making such a sweeping change, so really you're just playing a fun "what if" game.They don't consider any ideas unless they can sell it so I'm not surprised there.
There are plenty of ideas people might and do want. They still won't do them unless they can sell it in the crown store for at least $30 these days...and that's the problem.ManwithBeard9 wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »where would you get the XP to level up when everything is done on the first one?
So your Sorc goes to 50/810
Now you gotta find XP for the DK, Warden, Templar, Necro, and NB to All get to 50?
You say it like it's nothing, but where you gonna find all the XP? Can't do quests over again. Sound like a Whole big bunch of repetitive grinding the same stuff.
And where you gonna spend your skill points? Vampire or WW or Psjijiic or Guilds etc all need points if you got them
And what about crafting? How many skill points that gonna need?
1. There are plenty of quests in this game out in the world, and now the entire world is synced to CP160 so you could start right where you left off with any class at any level. Somehow done all of the quests? You still have your daily dungeons to do which are great exp. You can level every class without grinding. The same can be said for FFXIV
2. Skill points. Non-class skill points would stay the same. If you have Dawnbreaker you have Dawnbreaker on every class unless you respec it out. Same goes for crafting and weapon skill lines (if ZOS really wanted to they could lock weapon skill lines to character level. E.g., you can only use up to the level 30 skills if you're level 30). Only thing that changes is your class skills.
So you're grinding one character every time instead of a different character that you can customize the look of. You're also forgetting if you have one character learning ever class skill line then you're locked into one set of racials. You're hindering yourself by pigeon holing yourself into one race. You're also making it more labor intensive and clogging up your own inventory with any gear you'd want to swap out to when changing classes. It's easier and quicker to grind up a new character with the exact racials you want and can then keep all gear on that character instead of your bank or backpack. So instead of logging out to a swap to a different character you have to sit there and micromanage your skills and gear to swap out.
And no, developing a "class change" of sorts would not be easy or quick to do. They would have to rewrite how every character works. How every character levels. How every class levels. How progress would pick up if you swap before you max everything. At that point, they might was well just make FF14.
You do realize loadouts traditionally come with a system like this yes? Or you'd simply use an addon to switch your loadout like people do already.
Races can do just about anything in this game. Race hasn't mattered for a little while then. If this was a year ago I'd agree on that point but I'd also say if you wanted to play Mag and Stam together pick something more universally friendly like Dunmer or Imperial
As far as developing a class change no it would not be quick and I also said it wouldn't be easy. As I said it would take several months (about a quarter, maybe a tiny bit longer) and it would have been easier with the original team.
However it is very much not easier and quicker to grind a new character where you have to relevel things like Undaunted, Mages Guild, Fighters Guild, and SkyshardsValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Ixilith✭✭✭Problem is FFXIV generally does this as it has loads of classes with fixed ability sets with 0 customisation at game itself demands such a system otherwise trying to achieve anything would become huge tasks. Specially with nicht requirements and more.
ESO has a small class choice which each can do anything. So outside animation the classes are very similar in playstyle.
ESO classes are 80% shared abilities litterally all skill trees work the same for every class the only part that is unique is skill trees0 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭Unfortunately that also eliminates the need for players to buy Crown Store items such as experience scrolls, riding lessons for speed, capacity or stamina, crafting scrolls, or skyshards. And with that in mind no-one at ZOS will even remotely consider such a change.
No one buy them anyway
Except whales0 -
bulbousb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't see this as a "Crown store" issue. The changes you are suggesting would not be modular and able to be purchased/activated for some people but not for others. So, it would be a global game redesign. Which would mean that an overwhelming number of people would have to support the change for there to be a business case to make the change. And it's clear you won't see that consensus.There are plenty of ideas people might and do want. They still won't do them unless they can sell it in the crown store for at least $30 these days...and that's the problem.
Lethal zergling0