Who should slot & use the Warhorn Ultimate - healers or tanks?

Donny_Vito · June 2019

Both should have it available but only slot it after discussion beforehand as to who is going to use it

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I see people saying "other ultimates are better" but they don't give any examples. What....Barrier?

There is, unfortunately, nothing that can compare to adding +30% crit damage to your whole group. Barrier can be helpful in certain situations. Templar/Warden healers can use a healing ultimate in certain situations. The Sorc Negate can be useful in certain situations. The only one that is exceptional in ALL situations is the Aggressive Warhorn...lets not fool ourselves. In Trial groups that clear every type of content, they will have close to 100% uptime on Warhorns which means almost every role player has it slotted on one of their bars. Don't hate the meta, hate the game.

Warhorn is a flat 15% addative to your crit hit damage, has been for a long time. As for barrier, I would say having DPS alive more then dead would be comparable.

Sorry, I keep thinking it's still the +30%. And yes, having DPS that stay alive is a good start, and if you have to use Ultimates to always keep them alive then the problem lies elsewhere. Like many other people have said, there are Ultimates that are fight-specific which is what I'd classify Barrier as.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2019

It’s called a war horn rotation for a reason. Assuming you are going for score, most Raid groups will have 4 horns going to maximize major force uptime. Only reason not to have four is if you need a more selfish ultimate for a tank, or maybe heals or mitigation for a difficult part of the fight. For example if you are progressing, I would rather my tank have an oh crap button as a dead tank is a much bigger issue than lower horn uptime.

MartiniDaniels · June 2019

Well, on nightblade you may go with potion speed jewelry and war machine and spam incap to provide very good uptime of major slayer. Of course you need to check if your dps looks like they may run lokkestiz.

Kingslayer513 · June 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

It's... a no-brainer, really. Both tank and healer are support roles, and Aggressive Warhorn is a good support ultimate, so when situation does not require any other ultimate (and sure there are situations when you want to pop Corrosive or Barrier in a tight situation), it always makes sense to use Warhorn. And everything else that boosts the group, really. It's just in pug dungeon runs, it's harder to coordinate since you're usually neither on voice nor have ultimate sharing, but it just takes asking in chat "whose warhorn first?" to roughly sort it out and avoid overlaps.

P.S.: Didn't voice since there's no simple option "yes, both should use it". The poll is ill-formed like that.

This. Can't vote if the poll option doesn't exist.

Rev Rielle · June 2019

There's a better ultimate that can be slotted by either healers or tanks instead of Warhorn

Like usual almost everyone's only talking within the sphere of veteran trials. Which is perfectly fine, but it should be made clear that that is only one type of content for one portion of the player base.

For newer players reading this, and wanting a take home message to walk away with. you really only have to ask yourself one question when deciding upon using Warhorn (or any other ultimate), and that is: Is the dps competent at surviving, and do they deal reasonable damage? If yes to both/either well then Warhorn may be the most suitable option to aid your group. If not, another ultimate will likely be better.

John_Falstaff · June 2019

Rev Rielle wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

Barrier 24/7

Absolutely. These days with the power creep, there is basically hardly ever a dps problem in groups. As such Warhorn (Aggressive or otherwise) doesn't really help the situation much. Barrier on the other hand helps volumes; it can easily make the difference between a wipe or a success simply by its prudent use. As a healer I always have it ready for those "oh gods, the dps isn't really standing there whilst X attack is just about to happen are they?" moments, and there are plenty of those.

Warhorn occupies just one ultimate slot. The gods saw fit to grace us with a spare. ^^

Its use is almost always waste. That was my point.

"Almost always" begs to be backed up with statistics. Subject to personal experience; if you run with bad groups that struggle with a lot of content - you will see Barrier to be more useful than Warhorn. If you run with well-knit groups that seldom get into a tight spot, or an easier content - your Barrier will be sitting idly on your front bar, performing the greatest function it's capable to perform on a smooth run - namely giving you 10% magicka regen. (Which is why it's a great ultimate to slot on the front... and hopefully never use.)

Yes, that's likely true.

When you look at the player base as a whole, from experience Barrier is far more useful than Warhorn. For the reasons already stated. As someone that has used both, a lot, Barrier is just better. For veteran trials, of course it's not better. But the minority shouldn't take precedent over the majority. That would be misleading and disingenuous to players reading this to learn something. That's where the 'almost always' comes from, no statistics needed, it's just obvious when looking at the bigger picture.

So you're saying that your experience allows you to look at the three-million strong (and that's only active ones) user base in statistically correct fashion, and consider that you see the big picture and everything is obvious? Passing as a bit arrogant here, don't you feel? As someone who also used both (and I'm a reasonably experienced DD and tank), I have no reason to accept your "player base as a whole", "no statistics needed", "obvious" and "bigger picture" in good faith.

p00tx · June 2019

Both should have it available but only slot it after discussion beforehand as to who is going to use it

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I see people saying "other ultimates are better" but they don't give any examples. What....Barrier?

There is, unfortunately, nothing that can compare to adding +30% crit damage to your whole group. Barrier can be helpful in certain situations. Templar/Warden healers can use a healing ultimate in certain situations. The Sorc Negate can be useful in certain situations. The only one that is exceptional in ALL situations is the Aggressive Warhorn...lets not fool ourselves. In Trial groups that clear every type of content, they will have close to 100% uptime on Warhorns which means almost every role player has it slotted on one of their bars. Don't hate the meta, hate the game.

Warhorn is a flat 15% addative to your crit hit damage, has been for a long time. As for barrier, I would say having DPS alive more then dead would be comparable.

Barrier is the ulti equivalent to Breath of Life. If you have to use it, you either weren't doing your job properly all along and weren't proactively healing, you have a bad team that ignores mechanics and makes you work unnecessarily hard (still shouldn't need Barrier), or you just got bad RNG and got CCed and needed a hail Mary to get everyone back in the game while you recovered and restarted your healing rotation. It should NEVER be regularly used. It's way too easy to keep people up without it, and your ulti would be better spent speeding up the fight. The best mitigation is killing faster, because dead things can't do damage (barring the poison Skeevers in Scalecaller).

IzzyStardust · June 2019

Both should have it available but only slot it after discussion beforehand as to who is going to use it

Almost always both tanks and healers; excepting certain boss encounters/HMs

IzzyStardust · June 2019

Both should have it available but only slot it after discussion beforehand as to who is going to use it

Although: the necro flesh atro ulti is also a good thing and one or 2 could do with that, too!

darkblue5 · June 2019

Both should have it available but only slot it after discussion beforehand as to who is going to use it

A warhorn right as the fight starts is usually particularly effective as most DPS will have their ultimate saved up and the bonus crit damage will cover some decent burst. In most normal and vet dungeons Barriers or Trees etc etc are way overkill for actually preventing the wipe.

karekiz · June 2019

Both should have it available but only slot it after discussion beforehand as to who is going to use it

Warhorn in general - barrier for specific situations.

Alter you build for your team, not everyone is 100% perfect and this didn't say "For my speed run HM vet DLC trial team", but in general. In general you would use both in area's.

Barrier in general "Skips" mechanics <Remember that shield nerf?>. I slot it as off side on my tank. If a group is near wipe warhorning a healer is absolutely stupid. Barrier on healer -> Healer can have a much easier time rezzing -> DPS back up to dps.

Its insane to think people are perfect and never die, I mean hell I saw a progession video of VSS where an off tank used barrier. I am sure at some point it will be removed, but /shrug.

Rev Rielle · June 2019

There's a better ultimate that can be slotted by either healers or tanks instead of Warhorn

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

Barrier 24/7

Absolutely. These days with the power creep, there is basically hardly ever a dps problem in groups. As such Warhorn (Aggressive or otherwise) doesn't really help the situation much. Barrier on the other hand helps volumes; it can easily make the difference between a wipe or a success simply by its prudent use. As a healer I always have it ready for those "oh gods, the dps isn't really standing there whilst X attack is just about to happen are they?" moments, and there are plenty of those.

Warhorn occupies just one ultimate slot. The gods saw fit to grace us with a spare. ^^

Its use is almost always waste. That was my point.

"Almost always" begs to be backed up with statistics. Subject to personal experience; if you run with bad groups that struggle with a lot of content - you will see Barrier to be more useful than Warhorn. If you run with well-knit groups that seldom get into a tight spot, or an easier content - your Barrier will be sitting idly on your front bar, performing the greatest function it's capable to perform on a smooth run - namely giving you 10% magicka regen. (Which is why it's a great ultimate to slot on the front... and hopefully never use.)

Yes, that's likely true.

When you look at the player base as a whole, from experience Barrier is far more useful than Warhorn. For the reasons already stated. As someone that has used both, a lot, Barrier is just better. For veteran trials, of course it's not better. But the minority shouldn't take precedent over the majority. That would be misleading and disingenuous to players reading this to learn something. That's where the 'almost always' comes from, no statistics needed, it's just obvious when looking at the bigger picture.

So you're saying that your experience allows you to look at the three-million strong (and that's only active ones) user base in statistically correct fashion, and consider that you see the big picture and everything is obvious? Passing as a bit arrogant here, don't you feel? As someone who also used both (and I'm a reasonably experienced DD and tank), I have no reason to accept your "player base as a whole", "no statistics needed", "obvious" and "bigger picture" in good faith.

Now you're just being rude, and you're seemingly little confused by what I've written (if you actually read what I wrote you'd understand - I hope - but you're just looking for an argument at this point obviously) as you accuse me of one thing, then proceed do the very thing you're accusing me of. Though it's besides the point, you clearly don't know statistics so please don't go looking for a fight in that regard. It's called a 'sample', if you need it spelled out. It was clear what my post said in reference to.

I don't have to justify myself to a rude boy like you, but my 'experience' is from doing a multitude of both veteran and normal dungeons and trials since launch with random players. I have done so as a tank, healer and dps. I also have friends that vary from very skilled to somewhat 'hopeless' at group content, and with organised groups. From that experience it's blatantly clear that groups work very differently than those that are organised. Group damage is considerably lower than all the high numbers spoken about on the forums here. Groups often do not know all the mechanics and fight in the 'optimal' way, they do not keep together as a group and more often than not move around a lot more in battle, this is often the case for tanks too, make high dps practically impossible as they're continually walking the enemies out of ground-targeted-damage skills. Much of the player base does not understand the importance of blocking, block-casting and interrupting, meaning that they take a lot more damage then they should in many situations. Synergies? Forget it. And the list goes on...

Now there is nothing inherently wrong with any of this style of game-play, it's just not optimal, which makes some builds and skills that are wonderful in optimal and organised situations, often less useful. But that is what you're faced, as you no doubt know if you have dungeoned and trialed a lot with random players over the years, at you suggest you have. An entire spectrum of player abilities and group experiences in the game, at the top end warhorn is clearly the most useful, but for most of the rest there are likely other ultimates that are more suitable to helping the group successfully beat and enemy boss. No one said Warhorn was never useful (however limited the poll options were).

I'm sorry you get upset when someone disagrees with you. But there's no need to be snarky & rude. If you don't hold the same view that's perfectly fine, it's called agreeing to disagree. It's a life-skill that I'd say is very important to learn, or else I can only imagine how hard (and lonely) life would be.

DisgracefulMind · June 2019

Both

zvavi · June 2019

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I'm sorry you get upset when someone disagrees with you. But there's no need to be snarky & rude. If you don't hold the same view that's perfectly fine, it's called agreeing to disagree. It's a life-skill that I'd say is very important to learn, or else I can only imagine how hard (and lonely) life would be.

@Rev Rielle
Let's see. He agreed with you that barrier is good with bad teams. He didn't agree with you that warhorn is useless. He said that it is subjective to experience. You said that your experience says barrier is more useful, and that it is "obvious" (even though it is just your experience) that it is better. Then he pointed out that denying other people's opinions is a bit arrogant. I mean, i do understand how it can be seemed a bit snarky and rude (just as you said), but your message seemed like snarky and rude 10 times more.

PS. Honestly you are of the same opinion, barrier always on front bar, use it on weaker teams for survivability, when the teams allow use warhorn on cd. The semantics you are arguing about are is the skill of the player base.

Rev Rielle · June 2019

There's a better ultimate that can be slotted by either healers or tanks instead of Warhorn

zvavi wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I'm sorry you get upset when someone disagrees with you. But there's no need to be snarky & rude. If you don't hold the same view that's perfectly fine, it's called agreeing to disagree. It's a life-skill that I'd say is very important to learn, or else I can only imagine how hard (and lonely) life would be.

@Rev Rielle
Let's see. He agreed with you that barrier is good with bad teams. He didn't agree with you that warhorn is useless. He said that it is subjective to experience. You said that your experience says barrier is more useful, and that it is "obvious" (even though it is just your experience) that it is better. Then he pointed out that denying other people's opinions is a bit arrogant. I mean, i do understand how it can be seemed a bit snarky and rude (just as you said), but your message seemed like snarky and rude 10 times more.

PS. Honestly you are of the same opinion, barrier always on front bar, use it on weaker teams for survivability, when the teams allow use warhorn on cd. The semantics you are arguing about are is the skill of the player base.

True, I just get a bit sensitive, especially over 'statistics' as that was my profession for 15 years, so I know it's ins and outs. And more vigorously defend more than needed at times, especially against the 'there is only one way of doing things' mentality.
You are right.

John_Falstaff · June 2019

Rev Rielle wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

Barrier 24/7

Absolutely. These days with the power creep, there is basically hardly ever a dps problem in groups. As such Warhorn (Aggressive or otherwise) doesn't really help the situation much. Barrier on the other hand helps volumes; it can easily make the difference between a wipe or a success simply by its prudent use. As a healer I always have it ready for those "oh gods, the dps isn't really standing there whilst X attack is just about to happen are they?" moments, and there are plenty of those.

Warhorn occupies just one ultimate slot. The gods saw fit to grace us with a spare. ^^

Its use is almost always waste. That was my point.

"Almost always" begs to be backed up with statistics. Subject to personal experience; if you run with bad groups that struggle with a lot of content - you will see Barrier to be more useful than Warhorn. If you run with well-knit groups that seldom get into a tight spot, or an easier content - your Barrier will be sitting idly on your front bar, performing the greatest function it's capable to perform on a smooth run - namely giving you 10% magicka regen. (Which is why it's a great ultimate to slot on the front... and hopefully never use.)

Yes, that's likely true.

When you look at the player base as a whole, from experience Barrier is far more useful than Warhorn. For the reasons already stated. As someone that has used both, a lot, Barrier is just better. For veteran trials, of course it's not better. But the minority shouldn't take precedent over the majority. That would be misleading and disingenuous to players reading this to learn something. That's where the 'almost always' comes from, no statistics needed, it's just obvious when looking at the bigger picture.

So you're saying that your experience allows you to look at the three-million strong (and that's only active ones) user base in statistically correct fashion, and consider that you see the big picture and everything is obvious? Passing as a bit arrogant here, don't you feel? As someone who also used both (and I'm a reasonably experienced DD and tank), I have no reason to accept your "player base as a whole", "no statistics needed", "obvious" and "bigger picture" in good faith.

Now you're just being rude, and you're seemingly little confused by what I've written (if you actually read what I wrote you'd understand - I hope - but you're just looking for an argument at this point obviously) as you accuse me of one thing, then proceed do the very thing you're accusing me of. Though it's besides the point, you clearly don't know statistics so please don't go looking for a fight in that regard. It's called a 'sample', if you need it spelled out. It was clear what my post said in reference to.

I don't have to justify myself to a rude boy like you, but my 'experience' is from doing a multitude of both veteran and normal dungeons and trials since launch with random players. I have done so as a tank, healer and dps. I also have friends that vary from very skilled to somewhat 'hopeless' at group content, and with organised groups. From that experience it's blatantly clear that groups work very differently than those that are organised. Group damage is considerably lower than all the high numbers spoken about on the forums here. Groups often do not know all the mechanics and fight in the 'optimal' way, they do not keep together as a group and more often than not move around a lot more in battle, this is often the case for tanks too, make high dps practically impossible as they're continually walking the enemies out of ground-targeted-damage skills. Much of the player base does not understand the importance of blocking, block-casting and interrupting, meaning that they take a lot more damage then they should in many situations. Synergies? Forget it. And the list goes on...

Now there is nothing inherently wrong with any of this style of game-play, it's just not optimal, which makes some builds and skills that are wonderful in optimal and organised situations, often less useful. But that is what you're faced, as you no doubt know if you have dungeoned and trialed a lot with random players over the years, at you suggest you have. An entire spectrum of player abilities and group experiences in the game, at the top end warhorn is clearly the most useful, but for most of the rest there are likely other ultimates that are more suitable to helping the group successfully beat and enemy boss. No one said Warhorn was never useful (however limited the poll options were).

I'm sorry you get upset when someone disagrees with you. But there's no need to be snarky & rude. If you don't hold the same view that's perfectly fine, it's called agreeing to disagree. It's a life-skill that I'd say is very important to learn, or else I can only imagine how hard (and lonely) life would be.

Mm-m. First thing, I'm not upset; I'm genuinely amused. ^^ Just to put things in perspective, you bring your own anecdotal evidence to assure everyone that your experience is enough to guarantee that warhorn is almost always a waste, and the barrier is just better, assuming that your experience is enough to generalize for the whole player base. When, to such a categorical claim (and no, you didn't say warhorn is never useful... you said 'almost never', don't twist your own words), I mentioned that you brought nothing that actually backs your point except for "listen to me, I see big picture" (which is rude and arrogant on its own, but you don't seem to notice when you're rude, only when others are), and mention that my experience is different - which by itself is a hint that personal experience can lead to skewed results, but you failed to take that hint - you suddenly go ahead and I am:

- A rude boy.
- Confused.
- Upset.
- Don't know statistics. (What sample size you're operating on? You must have mentioned, because clearly you know the statistics...)

You know, I can only tell you to try and follow your own advice - learn some life-skills, you don't get a good life by being arrogant and bristling against everyone who points out that you are. ^^ Oh, and your statistics part also could use a bit of improvement. ^^

Grianasteri · June 2019

Both should have it available but only slot it after discussion beforehand as to who is going to use it

daemondamian wrote: »

If you look at the healer builds by Alcast for Templar and Necromancer healers as well as the builds for Dragonknight and Necromancer tanks they each recommend having Aggressive Warhorn slotted as one of your ultimates so who should slot it - healers or tanks?

I'm feeling horny...

OrphanHelgen · June 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

Warhorn in an average pug is a complete waste of an ultimate slot. Any damage ultimate you slot (even on a tank) is probably more dps than the horn would add to a jumble of puglets.

This doesn't encurage the players with actual dmg to use the group tool. If this is the attitude, then you will be stuck with poor group for sure. Don't forget it's not only the crit buff, but also the 10% max resources which adds to dmg. A dungeon without buffs compared to all buffs, is night and day difference. Combine with jorvuld and you get even higher uptime on the crit dmg buff. But who needs dmg right? Dmg not needed to kill anything in this game apparently.

John_Falstaff · June 2019

And to return to the topic at hand, and looking at the contention around what less experienced groups need, I'm going to give my take on it - and that's personal experience as opposed to blanket and unsound claims about "big picture". My observations if you will.

In the case of very inexperienced groups, I'd struggle to recall when it was last time when Barrier made any difference. Not for the lack of trying, if anything last night I was poked to help an inexperienced group standing midway through a dungeon without tank. There were a lot of barriers, and for precisely zero effect. Thing is, you can't make or break a newbie run with a barrier - people ignore mechanics, people stand in red, people run around everywhere. You can hit Barrier, but when they keep standing in red, it will only give them a few seconds; the damage will chew through the meager extra health and will kill them, because they keep standing in red anyway. As it will kill them next trash pull; as it will kill them next boss fight if they'll get there. Barrier is an ultimate, you can't spam it to give immortality to players who constantly expose themselves to damage.

Second case is highly experienced groups. That's where barrier shines - when you precisely know when to use it, and slot it on purpose; the 3DD runs without healer when you need that edge when defile sets in on tank or whole group gets a damage spike that would've been healed through otherwise; the burns when you decide to bypass mechanics and hit barrier to give DDs a few seconds of survival to let them burn the boss before he burns them (and even then, if group is confident about their survival - the skill of block-casting while burning the boss goes a long way - warhorn may still be better to give them the burst). This case is not the concern of this thread, this is where people consciously decide to use barrier when it makes sense to use one.

The third case would be the groups with medium experience fighting through tougher content, and it takes up a special place in my personal book. On the first glance, yes, with such groups, barrier can make or break a fight because "oh gosh" moments don't happen often. But my take on it is, if screw-ups are infrequent enough that Barrier can make difference, then it's a good indication that, instead of using Barrier, you can do something much, much better for your group: explain them what went wrong. If group screws up infrequently and there's a bottleneck in some fight, chances are, they're bright enough to listen and analyze what went wrong and how to avoid it on the next attempt.

So my take on it is as this: if some group's fights are teetering on the Barrier, then don't be lazy and don't let it stay that way. You'd be doing your group a disservice. Next time they run without you, there'll be anger, there'll be finger pointing, there'll be "we always did it with barrier, why you're not using barrier, healer, all good healers use barrier", there'll be disbanded groups and bad experience, and the group will never get the chance to improve. So don't be lazy, and instead talk to your group; explain fine print of mechanics, give tips and tricks, teach them how to do better, tell DDs not to stand here and there at such-and-such moments, tell tank to taunt/chain such-and-such adds early on and DDs to burst them first, explain moments when to block and when to roll. Next time they run without you, they may not have barrier, but they will have that knowledge. There is more satisfaction in "whee, we made it like clockwork" than in "whew, if not for that barrier...". Don't be lazy by letting the barrier be the bottleneck of their experience; instead, recall that the job of support role isn't only about support skills on your skill bar, and start teaching people. That's what makes you a great healer or tank, not the bar layout.

Long story short, as I see it and how it was in my experience, the kind of group that can actually be carried by the barrier... ironically, also happens to be the kind of group that will benefit most if you'll stop using the barrier and instead work together with them on how to do without it. So go ahead, people, and be the true support role that you are.

daemondamian · June 2019

Thanks everybody for voting and discussion of this topic. I completely agree that there could have been better poll options especially asI overlooked the fact that you can do dungeons on vet level with pugs.

For myself for my NB pve healer (who I haven't used much in groups yet) I will continue to use Warhorn in one slot and Bolstering Darkness in the other as per Alcast's Illusion build and for my Necromancer build I'm leveling up atm will use Renewing Animation in one slot and Warhorn in the other.

I agree that use of ulti is situational and depends on whether you are in a pug vet or normal or in a trial and whether or not there is communication beforehand and or during.

Playing as my NB healer the other day I ran two normal dungeons with pugs and players below level 50 (I'm max) where I used Bolstering Darkness more than Warhorn as I felt they might be a bit squishy and it was better off to give them some damage mitigation and healing then resources and extra damage?

erlewine · June 2019

these threads are always depressing because people don't seem to accept that the way the game is healed changed dramatically over time as you progress. 4 man healing is different from craglorn trial healing, is different from vMoL healing, from vAS healing, vCR, vCR+, etc. Many of these require totally different strategies to heal effectively. I wish the game did a better job making it a more elegant progression, but not sure how it could be done. Springs is a good example. It's the main heal for a lot of trials for a long time, then suddenly you hit some where it's not very good at all like vCR+3, and you'll have to change your strategies and drop preconceived notions like "x is bad" or whatever. I used to see quite a lot of healers in high tier being unwilling to discuss any changes to their tactics because they worked in old trials and became defensive.

tl;dr stop trying to turn healers in cookie cutter dps style builds