Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradiction to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

The removal of major defile, major fracture, minor beserk arent my view. Theyre what the class lost.

Requiring attacking from the side/back isnt my opinion either. Its a bad change that doesnt benefit tanks, healers or brawlers. (Campaigning for stamplar, no wonder you see it as balanced. lol)

The idea that nightblades should be nerfed because YOU feel less effective as a stamplar doesnt mean thats the only way to look at it. Look at the "bigger picture." Way more than just 2 classes.

Wardens have major fracture, minor beserk and major defile. In ranged and Aoe. Does that mean they should lose major fracture because it negatively effects your stamplar too?

Talk about a narrow minded view. And your "people asking for adjustments" is quite a pretty way of saying people wanted the class nerfed. Which is problematic.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ty for confirming you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever so I can adjust my argument to your level of intelligence.

1) I NEVER wanted NB nerf. I main NB. I have a NB Tank, Healer, Stamblade and Magblade. I don't want my main class nerfed.
2) The entire "People asking for adjustment" was in no way, shape, or form in reference to Nerfing Stamblade. It was entirely in regard to people asking for Minor Fracture to be added to Surprise Attack instead of the 5% Debuff from Flanking since this would make PotL more or less useless and by extension would make Stamplar useless.
3) This entire argument is about why adding MINOR fracture on NB is bad for Stamplar. Major Fracture from Warden is irrelevant to the discussion at all because it doesn't remove utility from Stamplar, unlike the suggestion of adding Minor Fracture to NB does.
4) The only reason I'm "campaigning" for Stamplar is because I see how adding Minor Fracture to NB negatively impacts Stamplar, you know, because I'm actually looking at the big picture.

Surprise Attack never benefitted Tanks or Healers. Tanks have Puncture for cheaper and Healblade could use Mark Target even before being free for the same thing. Brawler is the only playstyle that loses out from this current iteration of Surprise Attack but considering the other buffs to that playstyle (Added Mitigation from Grim Focus as well as Shade being a great DoT now), I don't see that playstyle being hugely impacted either.

I care about balance, 1st and foremost and to hell with class/race/etc. I see Minor Fracture on NB as an affront to balance because it removes utility from Stamplar. Even in other forum posts for NB on PTS, I stated the entire reason I didn't suggest Mark Target get Minor Fracture/Breech was because of my concern for Templar and PotL. I argue against Molten Weapons being changed formore DPS when DK healers need help more than their DPS specs do. I argue that Curse be changed in a similar way to Shade so that StamSorc can use it. I argue that NB should NOT get Minor Fracture because it hurts Templar.

I cannot make this any more clearly so if you can't understand that, then you're beyond help and a waste of breath.

Speaking of waste of breath.

Youre going in circles.
Youre saying you dont want minor fracture given to nbs because you feel it lessens the value of your templar.
I'm saying that what nightblades had, major fracture, major defile and minor beserk, were all given to another class.

By your logic that should be nerfed because nightblades, if using your view, should feel they lost value.That is where we disagree. I like the ability to choose different classes based on taste to accomplish things.
Then what the nightblade had, was not only given to another class but, instead of single target, aoe and range. But no issue with me. The insult to the injury is that everything that was given to another class in aoe/range, was stripped from the nightblade on single target abilities.

Let that sink in. And people are suggesting improvements. Yet here you are preaching to the choir. Telling nightblades how they shouldnt have something because you feel it harms your templar. lol

At least youd get to keep it.

You're literally repeating the same nonsense over and over again and I'm the one talking in circles?

They were not given to another class, Warden already had them built into their class, you ignoramus. Major Fracture is still located in the class via Mark Target so no, it's not lost. Minor Berserk was traded off for Minor Vulnerability so nothing realistically different there either and can be given back via Combat Prayer or from Camo Hunter. The only real loss is in Major Defile, which can be gotten thru Reverb and was useless in PvE content anyways so there's no real loss there; can't even remember the last time I even saw a Warden use Corrupted Pollen because the skill is absolute trash outside of zerging. Then, you're ignoring the NB received as well. Power Extraction is actually worth a damn now (and can ironically proc Major Defile via Disease Damage), Shade is now a viable DPS tool, you got mitigation on Grim Focus, Fear can now affect 6 people and Reave from Incap gave you increased sustain but you're arguing as though NB has now become completely trashed when nothing could be further from the truth.

Your entire argument hinges on some delusional notion that I give a damn about Templar in any personal capacity when I don't even play the 1 Templar character I do have because I don't really enjoy the class at all.

I'm fine with suggesting improvements, just not improvements that negatively affect other classes but since you're so caught up in not looking like an idiot (too late btw), you clearly missed that comment earlier in the thread in which I was fine increase the 5% debuff into a 10% debuff. As I already said, I don't care about classes/races/etc. I care about balance, which is something that is clearly too hard for you to grasp so I'm just done with you.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

Just like another wall of text. lol

Minor fracture is what youre in this post going on and on and on about.

As if thats all templar has going for it.

Get over yourself.

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradiction to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

The removal of major defile, major fracture, minor beserk arent my view. Theyre what the class lost.

Requiring attacking from the side/back isnt my opinion either. Its a bad change that doesnt benefit tanks, healers or brawlers. (Campaigning for stamplar, no wonder you see it as balanced. lol)

The idea that nightblades should be nerfed because YOU feel less effective as a stamplar doesnt mean thats the only way to look at it. Look at the "bigger picture." Way more than just 2 classes.

Wardens have major fracture, minor beserk and major defile. In ranged and Aoe. Does that mean they should lose major fracture because it negatively effects your stamplar too?

Talk about a narrow minded view. And your "people asking for adjustments" is quite a pretty way of saying people wanted the class nerfed. Which is problematic.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ty for confirming you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever so I can adjust my argument to your level of intelligence.

1) I NEVER wanted NB nerf. I main NB. I have a NB Tank, Healer, Stamblade and Magblade. I don't want my main class nerfed.
2) The entire "People asking for adjustment" was in no way, shape, or form in reference to Nerfing Stamblade. It was entirely in regard to people asking for Minor Fracture to be added to Surprise Attack instead of the 5% Debuff from Flanking since this would make PotL more or less useless and by extension would make Stamplar useless.
3) This entire argument is about why adding MINOR fracture on NB is bad for Stamplar. Major Fracture from Warden is irrelevant to the discussion at all because it doesn't remove utility from Stamplar, unlike the suggestion of adding Minor Fracture to NB does.
4) The only reason I'm "campaigning" for Stamplar is because I see how adding Minor Fracture to NB negatively impacts Stamplar, you know, because I'm actually looking at the big picture.

Surprise Attack never benefitted Tanks or Healers. Tanks have Puncture for cheaper and Healblade could use Mark Target even before being free for the same thing. Brawler is the only playstyle that loses out from this current iteration of Surprise Attack but considering the other buffs to that playstyle (Added Mitigation from Grim Focus as well as Shade being a great DoT now), I don't see that playstyle being hugely impacted either.

I care about balance, 1st and foremost and to hell with class/race/etc. I see Minor Fracture on NB as an affront to balance because it removes utility from Stamplar. Even in other forum posts for NB on PTS, I stated the entire reason I didn't suggest Mark Target get Minor Fracture/Breech was because of my concern for Templar and PotL. I argue against Molten Weapons being changed formore DPS when DK healers need help more than their DPS specs do. I argue that Curse be changed in a similar way to Shade so that StamSorc can use it. I argue that NB should NOT get Minor Fracture because it hurts Templar.

I cannot make this any more clearly so if you can't understand that, then you're beyond help and a waste of breath.

Speaking of waste of breath.

Youre going in circles.
Youre saying you dont want minor fracture given to nbs because you feel it lessens the value of your templar.
I'm saying that what nightblades had, major fracture, major defile and minor beserk, were all given to another class.

By your logic that should be nerfed because nightblades, if using your view, should feel they lost value.That is where we disagree. I like the ability to choose different classes based on taste to accomplish things.
Then what the nightblade had, was not only given to another class but, instead of single target, aoe and range. But no issue with me. The insult to the injury is that everything that was given to another class in aoe/range, was stripped from the nightblade on single target abilities.

Let that sink in. And people are suggesting improvements. Yet here you are preaching to the choir. Telling nightblades how they shouldnt have something because you feel it harms your templar. lol

At least youd get to keep it.

You're literally repeating the same nonsense over and over again and I'm the one talking in circles?

They were not given to another class, Warden already had them built into their class, you ignoramus. Major Fracture is still located in the class via Mark Target so no, it's not lost. Minor Berserk was traded off for Minor Vulnerability so nothing realistically different there either and can be given back via Combat Prayer or from Camo Hunter. The only real loss is in Major Defile, which can be gotten thru Reverb and was useless in PvE content anyways so there's no real loss there; can't even remember the last time I even saw a Warden use Corrupted Pollen because the skill is absolute trash outside of zerging. Then, you're ignoring the NB received as well. Power Extraction is actually worth a damn now (and can ironically proc Major Defile via Disease Damage), Shade is now a viable DPS tool, you got mitigation on Grim Focus, Fear can now affect 6 people and Reave from Incap gave you increased sustain but you're arguing as though NB has now become completely trashed when nothing could be further from the truth.

Your entire argument hinges on some delusional notion that I give a damn about Templar in any personal capacity when I don't even play the 1 Templar character I do have because I don't really enjoy the class at all.

I'm fine with suggesting improvements, just not improvements that negatively affect other classes but since you're so caught up in not looking like an idiot (too late btw), you clearly missed that comment earlier in the thread in which I was fine increase the 5% debuff into a 10% debuff. As I already said, I don't care about classes/races/etc. I care about balance, which is something that is clearly too hard for you to grasp so I'm just done with you.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

Just like another wall of text. lol

Minor fracture is what youre in this post going on and on and on about.

As if thats all templar has going for it.

Get over yourself.

So is reading comprehension, grammar, and being able to debate a topic at hand with reasonable, well thought out arguments, all of which you've yet to prove yourself capable of doing up to this point.

I ignore insults. Its childlike.
I leave keyboard karate for the nerds.
Your "dont give them minor fracture," was made insignificant when nightblades buffs are shared with another class.
I dont mind that debate. But you went full on nerd with the name calling/personal jabs.
Anonymous is what most of us are on here. To not know someone yet try to judge character? On a video game forum? lol.
Who cares what video game class gets changed if you lack class in real life.
I post to make the game more fun. No interest in internet fights/personal attacks. You got in your feelings. Its just a video game...

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradiction to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

The removal of major defile, major fracture, minor beserk arent my view. Theyre what the class lost.

Requiring attacking from the side/back isnt my opinion either. Its a bad change that doesnt benefit tanks, healers or brawlers. (Campaigning for stamplar, no wonder you see it as balanced. lol)

The idea that nightblades should be nerfed because YOU feel less effective as a stamplar doesnt mean thats the only way to look at it. Look at the "bigger picture." Way more than just 2 classes.

Wardens have major fracture, minor beserk and major defile. In ranged and Aoe. Does that mean they should lose major fracture because it negatively effects your stamplar too?

Talk about a narrow minded view. And your "people asking for adjustments" is quite a pretty way of saying people wanted the class nerfed. Which is problematic.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ty for confirming you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever so I can adjust my argument to your level of intelligence.

1) I NEVER wanted NB nerf. I main NB. I have a NB Tank, Healer, Stamblade and Magblade. I don't want my main class nerfed.
2) The entire "People asking for adjustment" was in no way, shape, or form in reference to Nerfing Stamblade. It was entirely in regard to people asking for Minor Fracture to be added to Surprise Attack instead of the 5% Debuff from Flanking since this would make PotL more or less useless and by extension would make Stamplar useless.
3) This entire argument is about why adding MINOR fracture on NB is bad for Stamplar. Major Fracture from Warden is irrelevant to the discussion at all because it doesn't remove utility from Stamplar, unlike the suggestion of adding Minor Fracture to NB does.
4) The only reason I'm "campaigning" for Stamplar is because I see how adding Minor Fracture to NB negatively impacts Stamplar, you know, because I'm actually looking at the big picture.

Surprise Attack never benefitted Tanks or Healers. Tanks have Puncture for cheaper and Healblade could use Mark Target even before being free for the same thing. Brawler is the only playstyle that loses out from this current iteration of Surprise Attack but considering the other buffs to that playstyle (Added Mitigation from Grim Focus as well as Shade being a great DoT now), I don't see that playstyle being hugely impacted either.

I care about balance, 1st and foremost and to hell with class/race/etc. I see Minor Fracture on NB as an affront to balance because it removes utility from Stamplar. Even in other forum posts for NB on PTS, I stated the entire reason I didn't suggest Mark Target get Minor Fracture/Breech was because of my concern for Templar and PotL. I argue against Molten Weapons being changed formore DPS when DK healers need help more than their DPS specs do. I argue that Curse be changed in a similar way to Shade so that StamSorc can use it. I argue that NB should NOT get Minor Fracture because it hurts Templar.

I cannot make this any more clearly so if you can't understand that, then you're beyond help and a waste of breath.

Speaking of waste of breath.

Youre going in circles.
Youre saying you dont want minor fracture given to nbs because you feel it lessens the value of your templar.
I'm saying that what nightblades had, major fracture, major defile and minor beserk, were all given to another class.

By your logic that should be nerfed because nightblades, if using your view, should feel they lost value.That is where we disagree. I like the ability to choose different classes based on taste to accomplish things.
Then what the nightblade had, was not only given to another class but, instead of single target, aoe and range. But no issue with me. The insult to the injury is that everything that was given to another class in aoe/range, was stripped from the nightblade on single target abilities.

Let that sink in. And people are suggesting improvements. Yet here you are preaching to the choir. Telling nightblades how they shouldnt have something because you feel it harms your templar. lol

At least youd get to keep it.

You're literally repeating the same nonsense over and over again and I'm the one talking in circles?

They were not given to another class, Warden already had them built into their class, you ignoramus. Major Fracture is still located in the class via Mark Target so no, it's not lost. Minor Berserk was traded off for Minor Vulnerability so nothing realistically different there either and can be given back via Combat Prayer or from Camo Hunter. The only real loss is in Major Defile, which can be gotten thru Reverb and was useless in PvE content anyways so there's no real loss there; can't even remember the last time I even saw a Warden use Corrupted Pollen because the skill is absolute trash outside of zerging. Then, you're ignoring the NB received as well. Power Extraction is actually worth a damn now (and can ironically proc Major Defile via Disease Damage), Shade is now a viable DPS tool, you got mitigation on Grim Focus, Fear can now affect 6 people and Reave from Incap gave you increased sustain but you're arguing as though NB has now become completely trashed when nothing could be further from the truth.

Your entire argument hinges on some delusional notion that I give a damn about Templar in any personal capacity when I don't even play the 1 Templar character I do have because I don't really enjoy the class at all.

I'm fine with suggesting improvements, just not improvements that negatively affect other classes but since you're so caught up in not looking like an idiot (too late btw), you clearly missed that comment earlier in the thread in which I was fine increase the 5% debuff into a 10% debuff. As I already said, I don't care about classes/races/etc. I care about balance, which is something that is clearly too hard for you to grasp so I'm just done with you.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

Just like another wall of text. lol

Minor fracture is what youre in this post going on and on and on about.

As if thats all templar has going for it.

Get over yourself.

So is reading comprehension, grammar, and being able to debate a topic at hand with reasonable, well thought out arguments, all of which you've yet to prove yourself capable of doing up to this point.

I ignore insults. Its childlike.
I leave keyboard karate for the nerds.
Your "dont give them minor fracture," was made insignificant when nightblades buffs are shared with another class.
I dont mind that debate. But you went full on nerd with the name calling/personal jabs.
Anonymous is what most of us are on here. To not know someone yet try to judge character? On a video game forum? lol.
Who cares what video game class gets changed if you lack class in real life.
I post to make the game more fun. No interest in internet fights/personal attacks. You got in your feelings. Its just a video game...

Just wanted to point out, it was you that started the argument by stating I had a narrow minded view on the topic, which wasn't true at all. You just failed to grasp the point of my argument.

I absolutely said your view was narrow minded. Objective response to a view. Not a person.

I fully grasped your point. Completely understood it.

Youre confusing not understanding with disagreeing. I simply disagreed.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradiction to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

The removal of major defile, major fracture, minor beserk arent my view. Theyre what the class lost.

Requiring attacking from the side/back isnt my opinion either. Its a bad change that doesnt benefit tanks, healers or brawlers. (Campaigning for stamplar, no wonder you see it as balanced. lol)

The idea that nightblades should be nerfed because YOU feel less effective as a stamplar doesnt mean thats the only way to look at it. Look at the "bigger picture." Way more than just 2 classes.

Wardens have major fracture, minor beserk and major defile. In ranged and Aoe. Does that mean they should lose major fracture because it negatively effects your stamplar too?

Talk about a narrow minded view. And your "people asking for adjustments" is quite a pretty way of saying people wanted the class nerfed. Which is problematic.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ty for confirming you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever so I can adjust my argument to your level of intelligence.

1) I NEVER wanted NB nerf. I main NB. I have a NB Tank, Healer, Stamblade and Magblade. I don't want my main class nerfed.
2) The entire "People asking for adjustment" was in no way, shape, or form in reference to Nerfing Stamblade. It was entirely in regard to people asking for Minor Fracture to be added to Surprise Attack instead of the 5% Debuff from Flanking since this would make PotL more or less useless and by extension would make Stamplar useless.
3) This entire argument is about why adding MINOR fracture on NB is bad for Stamplar. Major Fracture from Warden is irrelevant to the discussion at all because it doesn't remove utility from Stamplar, unlike the suggestion of adding Minor Fracture to NB does.
4) The only reason I'm "campaigning" for Stamplar is because I see how adding Minor Fracture to NB negatively impacts Stamplar, you know, because I'm actually looking at the big picture.

Surprise Attack never benefitted Tanks or Healers. Tanks have Puncture for cheaper and Healblade could use Mark Target even before being free for the same thing. Brawler is the only playstyle that loses out from this current iteration of Surprise Attack but considering the other buffs to that playstyle (Added Mitigation from Grim Focus as well as Shade being a great DoT now), I don't see that playstyle being hugely impacted either.

I care about balance, 1st and foremost and to hell with class/race/etc. I see Minor Fracture on NB as an affront to balance because it removes utility from Stamplar. Even in other forum posts for NB on PTS, I stated the entire reason I didn't suggest Mark Target get Minor Fracture/Breech was because of my concern for Templar and PotL. I argue against Molten Weapons being changed formore DPS when DK healers need help more than their DPS specs do. I argue that Curse be changed in a similar way to Shade so that StamSorc can use it. I argue that NB should NOT get Minor Fracture because it hurts Templar.

I cannot make this any more clearly so if you can't understand that, then you're beyond help and a waste of breath.

Speaking of waste of breath.

Youre going in circles.
Youre saying you dont want minor fracture given to nbs because you feel it lessens the value of your templar.
I'm saying that what nightblades had, major fracture, major defile and minor beserk, were all given to another class.

By your logic that should be nerfed because nightblades, if using your view, should feel they lost value.That is where we disagree. I like the ability to choose different classes based on taste to accomplish things.
Then what the nightblade had, was not only given to another class but, instead of single target, aoe and range. But no issue with me. The insult to the injury is that everything that was given to another class in aoe/range, was stripped from the nightblade on single target abilities.

Let that sink in. And people are suggesting improvements. Yet here you are preaching to the choir. Telling nightblades how they shouldnt have something because you feel it harms your templar. lol

At least youd get to keep it.

You're literally repeating the same nonsense over and over again and I'm the one talking in circles?

They were not given to another class, Warden already had them built into their class, you ignoramus. Major Fracture is still located in the class via Mark Target so no, it's not lost. Minor Berserk was traded off for Minor Vulnerability so nothing realistically different there either and can be given back via Combat Prayer or from Camo Hunter. The only real loss is in Major Defile, which can be gotten thru Reverb and was useless in PvE content anyways so there's no real loss there; can't even remember the last time I even saw a Warden use Corrupted Pollen because the skill is absolute trash outside of zerging. Then, you're ignoring the NB received as well. Power Extraction is actually worth a damn now (and can ironically proc Major Defile via Disease Damage), Shade is now a viable DPS tool, you got mitigation on Grim Focus, Fear can now affect 6 people and Reave from Incap gave you increased sustain but you're arguing as though NB has now become completely trashed when nothing could be further from the truth.

Your entire argument hinges on some delusional notion that I give a damn about Templar in any personal capacity when I don't even play the 1 Templar character I do have because I don't really enjoy the class at all.

I'm fine with suggesting improvements, just not improvements that negatively affect other classes but since you're so caught up in not looking like an idiot (too late btw), you clearly missed that comment earlier in the thread in which I was fine increase the 5% debuff into a 10% debuff. As I already said, I don't care about classes/races/etc. I care about balance, which is something that is clearly too hard for you to grasp so I'm just done with you.

Royalthought wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradiction to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

The removal of major defile, major fracture, minor beserk arent my view. Theyre what the class lost.

Requiring attacking from the side/back isnt my opinion either. Its a bad change that doesnt benefit tanks, healers or brawlers. (Campaigning for stamplar, no wonder you see it as balanced. lol)

The idea that nightblades should be nerfed because YOU feel less effective as a stamplar doesnt mean thats the only way to look at it. Look at the "bigger picture." Way more than just 2 classes.

Wardens have major fracture, minor beserk and major defile. In ranged and Aoe. Does that mean they should lose major fracture because it negatively effects your stamplar too?

Talk about a narrow minded view. And your "people asking for adjustments" is quite a pretty way of saying people wanted the class nerfed. Which is problematic.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ty for confirming you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever so I can adjust my argument to your level of intelligence.

1) I NEVER wanted NB nerf. I main NB. I have a NB Tank, Healer, Stamblade and Magblade. I don't want my main class nerfed.
2) The entire "People asking for adjustment" was in no way, shape, or form in reference to Nerfing Stamblade. It was entirely in regard to people asking for Minor Fracture to be added to Surprise Attack instead of the 5% Debuff from Flanking since this would make PotL more or less useless and by extension would make Stamplar useless.
3) This entire argument is about why adding MINOR fracture on NB is bad for Stamplar. Major Fracture from Warden is irrelevant to the discussion at all because it doesn't remove utility from Stamplar, unlike the suggestion of adding Minor Fracture to NB does.
4) The only reason I'm "campaigning" for Stamplar is because I see how adding Minor Fracture to NB negatively impacts Stamplar, you know, because I'm actually looking at the big picture.

Surprise Attack never benefitted Tanks or Healers. Tanks have Puncture for cheaper and Healblade could use Mark Target even before being free for the same thing. Brawler is the only playstyle that loses out from this current iteration of Surprise Attack but considering the other buffs to that playstyle (Added Mitigation from Grim Focus as well as Shade being a great DoT now), I don't see that playstyle being hugely impacted either.

I care about balance, 1st and foremost and to hell with class/race/etc. I see Minor Fracture on NB as an affront to balance because it removes utility from Stamplar. Even in other forum posts for NB on PTS, I stated the entire reason I didn't suggest Mark Target get Minor Fracture/Breech was because of my concern for Templar and PotL. I argue against Molten Weapons being changed formore DPS when DK healers need help more than their DPS specs do. I argue that Curse be changed in a similar way to Shade so that StamSorc can use it. I argue that NB should NOT get Minor Fracture because it hurts Templar.

I cannot make this any more clearly so if you can't understand that, then you're beyond help and a waste of breath.

Speaking of waste of breath.

Youre going in circles.
Youre saying you dont want minor fracture given to nbs because you feel it lessens the value of your templar.
I'm saying that what nightblades had, major fracture, major defile and minor beserk, were all given to another class.

By your logic that should be nerfed because nightblades, if using your view, should feel they lost value.That is where we disagree. I like the ability to choose different classes based on taste to accomplish things.
Then what the nightblade had, was not only given to another class but, instead of single target, aoe and range. But no issue with me. The insult to the injury is that everything that was given to another class in aoe/range, was stripped from the nightblade on single target abilities.

Let that sink in. And people are suggesting improvements. Yet here you are preaching to the choir. Telling nightblades how they shouldnt have something because you feel it harms your templar. lol

At least youd get to keep it.

You're literally repeating the same nonsense over and over again and I'm the one talking in circles?

They were not given to another class, Warden already had them built into their class, you ignoramus. Major Fracture is still located in the class via Mark Target so no, it's not lost. Minor Berserk was traded off for Minor Vulnerability so nothing realistically different there either and can be given back via Combat Prayer or from Camo Hunter. The only real loss is in Major Defile, which can be gotten thru Reverb and was useless in PvE content anyways so there's no real loss there; can't even remember the last time I even saw a Warden use Corrupted Pollen because the skill is absolute trash outside of zerging. Then, you're ignoring the NB received as well. Power Extraction is actually worth a damn now (and can ironically proc Major Defile via Disease Damage), Shade is now a viable DPS tool, you got mitigation on Grim Focus, Fear can now affect 6 people and Reave from Incap gave you increased sustain but you're arguing as though NB has now become completely trashed when nothing could be further from the truth.

Your entire argument hinges on some delusional notion that I give a damn about Templar in any personal capacity when I don't even play the 1 Templar character I do have because I don't really enjoy the class at all.

I'm fine with suggesting improvements, just not improvements that negatively affect other classes but since you're so caught up in not looking like an idiot (too late btw), you clearly missed that comment earlier in the thread in which I was fine increase the 5% debuff into a 10% debuff. As I already said, I don't care about classes/races/etc. I care about balance, which is something that is clearly too hard for you to grasp so I'm just done with you.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

Just like another wall of text. lol

Minor fracture is what youre in this post going on and on and on about.

As if thats all templar has going for it.

Get over yourself.

So is reading comprehension, grammar, and being able to debate a topic at hand with reasonable, well thought out arguments, all of which you've yet to prove yourself capable of doing up to this point.

I ignore insults. Its childlike.
I leave keyboard karate for the nerds.
Your "dont give them minor fracture," was made insignificant when nightblades buffs are shared with another class.
I dont mind that debate. But you went full on nerd with the name calling/personal jabs.
Anonymous is what most of us are on here. To not know someone yet try to judge character? On a video game forum? lol.
Who cares what video game class gets changed if you lack class in real life.
I post to make the game more fun. No interest in internet fights/personal attacks. You got in your feelings. Its just a video game...

Just wanted to point out, it was you that started the argument by stating I had a narrow minded view on the topic, which wasn't true at all. You just failed to grasp the point of my argument.

I absolutely said your view was narrow minded. Objective response to a view. Not a person.

I fully grasped your point. Completely understood it.

Youre confusing not understanding with disagreeing. I simply disagreed.

It's hardly narrow minded to look at classes from an holistic perspective.

To give Nightblades minor fracture would be to remove a debuff currently unique from stamplars, in which the only other mentions of obtaining the debuff involves using a complete 5pc set which would involve in a dps loss as two sets from off the top of my mind - sunderflame and Mephala's Hands - both of which are bad for dps.

Such a thing would mean that a one unique debuff that didn't result in dps loss would be given to 2 classes. Question is, why bring a stamplar over a stamblade when stamblade offers greater damage as whole as well as grant minor savagery boosting the damage of stam build even more?

The design of the game was made so that every class (orginal 4) offered unique buffs that made them desirable for content - though some are more potent than others - giving stamblade one of these unique buffs would be contradictory to the other design.

Would it be fair if every class got access to these buffs that made them inherently unique to group composition?

And before you claim that nightblade have lost buffs, you also forget to see what they gained. Minor vulnerability - freeing the need for more Infallible Aether should the skill be used; Unique mitigation buff - allowing and rewarding the idea of "saving stacks" of grim focus for any role in PvP and arguably helps tanks with more available mitigation techniques in place of healing; Reave - a sustain passives that could be realistically used on any role and offsets the lost of minor endurance if you use Incap.

Minor fracture isnt unique to templars. Its also available via bow skill.
It doesnt require a 5 piece set.

As for unique class buffs, Nightblades dont have access to minor sorcery. Thats the unique buff that gives group value to templars.

And yes nightblades lost buffs. Who said anything about forgetting what they gained? It doesn't equate. The class is playable but damage has been nerfed. Lessens their value too.

Our chat started about suprise attack. Simply nerfed and if the "gained" buff is to be used, its from behind/sides.
A few different people suggested different options. One of which were minor fracture.

My take was if its 5% vs minor fracture, Minor fracture would be an improvement IF its applied from all sides.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Ok then, if you want me to be civil, I'll go ahead and do so. The major difference between NB losing out on these buffs, while Warden gets to keep them and why NB can't have Minor Fracture because Templar have Minor Fracture is because of how differently Templar and NB got treated in Elsweyr.

Let's look at this objectively.
Templar lost Major Protection from Emp. Sweeps and PotL got nerfed damage wise with the only positive change for them coming from the fact that Cleansing Ritual now scaled off of Max Resources but in no way is that going to realistically make up for the Major Protection removal, nor is reducing the overall damage of Templar a good thing for the class as a whole.

Now look at NB. They lost some things, sure but these changes were highly offset by other adjustments to the class. Minor Berserk got removed but on top of getting Mitigation added to grim focus, the duration was also increased by 50% and they added Minor Vulnerability to the class as well, which more than makes up for the loss entirely. Combat Prayer will help you get it in PvE content so as long as the Healer isn't a potato, there won't be much of an impact outside of content like vAS+2 where its harder for healers to maintain good Minor Berserk uptimes so its a nerf there I suppose but not something that I view as that huge an impact on overall class performance.

Major Defile was only ever really useful in PvP and considering that the Defile CP has been nerfed, Major Defile on its own isn't going to help a NB get kills anymore so even if Major Defile had remained on Incap, it wouldn't have made as huge an impact due to the CP nerf to defiles in general. However, with Reave providing extra sustain, as well as the mitigation from Grim Focus, NB was at least still able to get kills by building for more than just a quick kill and had some more staying power than before. As for Warden's Major Defile, as I said earlier, I haven't seen that skill used in so long that I felt it was a non-issue and Reverb is much more reliable anyway.

Major Fracture is one of the most accessible debuffs available that the removal of it on Surprise Attacks only really affects Solo play, and anything outside of vMA is child's play really that it won't matter for the most part. In Group content, Tanks provide Major Fracture so it was redundant but the 5% debuff from Flanking does provide some level use to utility since it stacks with both Major and Minor Fracture to provide armor reduction and while experienced Trial Groups would easily overpenetrate, casual groups as well as Dungeons would almost always benefit from this effect so its an added utility, no matter how minute it may be. In PvP content, Surprise Attack will outperform Minor Fracture in cases where a target has 27k+ Resistance, which is pretty commonplace for PvP atm, and while limited to only the back and side, its not particularly hard to actually land these attacks either so I couldn't argue that its really better or worse there. It's just different.

Then there's Shade providing a great DoT+AoE+Minor Maim, Power Extraction now being a great AoE skill, and Fearing getting buffed to affect 6 people and I just don't see the need for giving NB Minor Fracture on top of all that. Stamplar already provide less DPS than Stamblade but that's balanced out by Stamplar providing more utility. Stamplar's Cleave Damage used to be better than Stamblades too but Power Extraction and Shade have made that no longer the case so its literally just utility vs damage and once that utility is gone, Stamplar is left dead in the water.

Now this goes way outside of what our discussion was about.

But it reveals your true motives. This isnt about a debuff. What your doing is comparing nightblade to templar. You shouldn't be.

If youre unhappy with the state of templar, go make a templar thread asking for improvements. Id completely support it.

What I dont support is hanging in other class threads attempting to prevent improvements.

As mentioned above minor sorcery is exclusive to temps. Not minor fracture. If it was suggested Minor Sorcery should be shared than you would be right. And I would then agree.

Unless youre gonna say minor fracture should be removed from the bow skills. If so, Im out of this discussion.