Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradicton to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

master_vanargand wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

I understand your opinion.
But, Surprise Attack for reduce Physical Resistance by 5% is trash.
I think it should be more than 10%.

Daus wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Ambush looks weaker than Lotus Fan.
But Magicka NB does not like Lotus Fan.
This is mad joke of ZOS.

Yup. If they could switch the scaling that would be great. Same for Soul Harvest. Magicka gets better better versions of Stam skills but don't have any interest in the play style. It's like ZOS is trolling Nightblades.

Iskiab wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Ambush looks weaker than Lotus Fan.
But Magicka NB does not like Lotus Fan.
This is mad joke of ZOS.

That’s not true. Magblades are just all over the place because it’s a versatile class.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradicton to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

I understand your opinion.
But, Surprise Attack for reduce Physical Resistance by 5% is trash.
I think it should be more than 10%.

Not sure about more than 10% but anywhere between 5% to 10% would be fine.

Or just buff the dmg a little.

Come on Thoggy buff the damage of surprise attack? The damage is already very high, buffing it would very likely break the skill. I would love some added utility that is not centralized around ganking. I think it should debuff with minor fracture attacking from any angle.

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Also, I tried parsing to the side of and behind the dummy a few times and noticed no difference? Does that surprise attack feature apply to the dummy?

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradicton to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

The removal of major defile, major fracture, minor beserk arent my view. Theyre what the class lost.

Requiring attacking from the side/back isnt my opinion either. Its a bad change that doesnt benefit tanks, healers or brawlers. (Campaigning for stamplar, no wonder you see it as balanced. lol)

The idea that nightblades should be nerfed because YOU feel less effective as a stamplar doesnt mean thats the only way to look at it. Look at the "bigger picture." Way more than just 2 classes.

Wardens have major fracture, minor beserk and major defile. In ranged and Aoe. Does that mean they should lose major fracture because it negatively effects your stamplar too?

Talk about a narrow minded view. And your "people asking for adjustments" is quite a pretty way of saying people wanted the class nerfed. Which is problematic.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ty for confirming you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever so I can adjust my argument to your level of intelligence.

1) I NEVER wanted NB nerf. I main NB. I have a NB Tank, Healer, Stamblade and Magblade. I don't want my main class nerfed.
2) The entire "People asking for adjustment" was in no way, shape, or form in reference to Nerfing Stamblade. It was entirely in regard to people asking for Minor Fracture to be added to Surprise Attack instead of the 5% Debuff from Flanking since this would make PotL more or less useless and by extension would make Stamplar useless.
3) This entire argument is about why adding MINOR fracture on NB is bad for Stamplar. Major Fracture from Warden is irrelevant to the discussion at all because it doesn't remove utility from Stamplar, unlike the suggestion of adding Minor Fracture to NB does.
4) The only reason I'm "campaigning" for Stamplar is because I see how adding Minor Fracture to NB negatively impacts Stamplar, you know, because I'm actually looking at the big picture.

Surprise Attack never benefitted Tanks or Healers. Tanks have Puncture for cheaper and Healblade could use Mark Target even before being free for the same thing. Brawler is the only playstyle that loses out from this current iteration of Surprise Attack but considering the other buffs to that playstyle (Added Mitigation from Grim Focus as well as Shade being a great DoT now), I don't see that playstyle being hugely impacted either.

I care about balance, 1st and foremost and to hell with class/race/etc. I see Minor Fracture on NB as an affront to balance because it removes utility from Stamplar. Even in other forum posts for NB on PTS, I stated the entire reason I didn't suggest Mark Target get Minor Fracture/Breech was because of my concern for Templar and PotL. I argue against Molten Weapons being changed formore DPS when DK healers need help more than their DPS specs do. I argue that Curse be changed in a similar way to Shade so that StamSorc can use it. I argue that NB should NOT get Minor Fracture because it hurts Templar.

I cannot make this any more clearly so if you can't understand that, then you're beyond help and a waste of breath.

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nostrabar wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise attack should get minor fracture not this 5% crap.

So much this.

I'd argue the difference between Minor Fracture and 5% Armor Pen is too insignificant to really matter in relation to PvE content. Both are negligible in most solo content and are about only 500-800 resistances apart, depending on if Major Fracture is implemented elsewhere. Both have positives and negatives to them (Minor Fracture is meaningless if PotL is in play and the 5% is irrelevant if you're already over penetrating without it). The only place where it would matter is PvP and there, 5% pen will amount to more pen on someone with 27k-28k resistances than Minor Fracture and less on those with lower resistances and considering the current Tank Meta in PvP right now, that 5% is on par with Minor Fracture there.

Besides, Stamplar doesn't need to lose more utility. Giving Stamblade the only real utility Stamplar bring would be salt in the wound for them.

That 5% is only from the sides/back.

That condition is a contradiction to the brawler vs ganker reasoning. Id agree with you if that wasnt the case. (Zos, make your mind up.)

Secondly, salt in the wound for stamplar? Have you noticed everything a nightblade lost on their single target skills, another class has in aoe and range? lol

Puncture/Heroic Slash for Brawler.
Surprise Attack for Ganker.
Where is the contradiction?

Grim Focus is the only contradictory skill for NB atm since it can both be used for defensive or offensive purposes so it overlaps both playstyles and although the removal of Minor Berserk makes it lean more towards the Brawler Playstyle, it's still one of the strongest non-Ultimate damage skills in the game.

I main NB. I have a NB of every spec and even I'm not so ignorant to ignore that Stamplar came off worse after the patch as well. Yes, Cleansing Ritual scaling off of Max Stamina is great for them but giving Minor Fracture to NB's spammable would make PotL pretty redundant and without that, what exactly does Stamplar bring to the table to make it relevant? NB lost Major Fracture from Surprise Attack, Minor Berserk/Endurance from Grim Focus and Stun/Defile from Incap. They gained a powerful AoE in Power Extraction, a worthwhile DoT in Shade, Mitigation/Heal plus a longer duration on Grim Focus and got some extra sustain from Incap.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The hysteria being thrown around is ludicrous IMHO. Some people don't like the changes, and that's fine, people have differing opinions but trying to make them seem like they've destroyed the class in anyway is just silly when that's far from the truth. The class still plays fine (bugged Crippling Blast and Teleport Shade notwithstanding), and the sooner people drop the Doom and Gloom act, the sooner they can adapt to the changes and see all the good things NB got this patch so that ZOS can actually try to help out the other classes a bit more.

The nerfs can be viewed as promoting a brawler playstyle as opposed to a ganker playstyle.

Yet the suprise attack penetration requires nightblades to attack from the sides and/or behind is contradictory.

What on earth are you ranting about?

Can be viewed as such doesn't mean that's the only way to view them. You view it as a contradiction because you believe ZOS is changing NB from Ganker to Brawler whereas I view them as opening up NB to be equally adept at both Ganking and Brawling. It's a different point of view. If ZOS truly intended to removing ganking from NB, they'd have scrapped Shadowy Disguise entirely already.

As for my "rant" as you put it, its about people asking for adjustments without thinking of the bigger picture and how it affects the rest of the game. In this context, giving Minor Fracture to NB would negatively affect Stamplar since it takes away from their group utility, which I find to be problematic. Is that so hard to grasp for you?

The removal of major defile, major fracture, minor beserk arent my view. Theyre what the class lost.

Requiring attacking from the side/back isnt my opinion either. Its a bad change that doesnt benefit tanks, healers or brawlers. (Campaigning for stamplar, no wonder you see it as balanced. lol)

The idea that nightblades should be nerfed because YOU feel less effective as a stamplar doesnt mean thats the only way to look at it. Look at the "bigger picture." Way more than just 2 classes.

Wardens have major fracture, minor beserk and major defile. In ranged and Aoe. Does that mean they should lose major fracture because it negatively effects your stamplar too?

Talk about a narrow minded view. And your "people asking for adjustments" is quite a pretty way of saying people wanted the class nerfed. Which is problematic.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

Ty for confirming you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever so I can adjust my argument to your level of intelligence.

1) I NEVER wanted NB nerf. I main NB. I have a NB Tank, Healer, Stamblade and Magblade. I don't want my main class nerfed.
2) The entire "People asking for adjustment" was in no way, shape, or form in reference to Nerfing Stamblade. It was entirely in regard to people asking for Minor Fracture to be added to Surprise Attack instead of the 5% Debuff from Flanking since this would make PotL more or less useless and by extension would make Stamplar useless.
3) This entire argument is about why adding MINOR fracture on NB is bad for Stamplar. Major Fracture from Warden is irrelevant to the discussion at all because it doesn't remove utility from Stamplar, unlike the suggestion of adding Minor Fracture to NB does.
4) The only reason I'm "campaigning" for Stamplar is because I see how adding Minor Fracture to NB negatively impacts Stamplar, you know, because I'm actually looking at the big picture.

Surprise Attack never benefitted Tanks or Healers. Tanks have Puncture for cheaper and Healblade could use Mark Target even before being free for the same thing. Brawler is the only playstyle that loses out from this current iteration of Surprise Attack but considering the other buffs to that playstyle (Added Mitigation from Grim Focus as well as Shade being a great DoT now), I don't see that playstyle being hugely impacted either.

I care about balance, 1st and foremost and to hell with class/race/etc. I see Minor Fracture on NB as an affront to balance because it removes utility from Stamplar. Even in other forum posts for NB on PTS, I stated the entire reason I didn't suggest Mark Target get Minor Fracture/Breech was because of my concern for Templar and PotL. I argue against Molten Weapons being changed formore DPS when DK healers need help more than their DPS specs do. I argue that Curse be changed in a similar way to Shade so that StamSorc can use it. I argue that NB should NOT get Minor Fracture because it hurts Templar.

I cannot make this any more clearly so if you can't understand that, then you're beyond help and a waste of breath.

Speaking of waste of breath.

Youre going in circles.
Youre saying you dont want minor fracture given to nbs because you feel it lessens the value of your templar.
I'm saying that what nightblades had, major fracture, major defile and minor beserk, were all given to another class.

By your logic that should be nerfed because nightblades, if using your view, should feel they lost value.That is where we disagree. I like the ability to choose different classes based on taste to accomplish things.
Then what the nightblade had, was not only given to another class but, instead of single target, aoe and range. But no issue with me. The insult to the injury is that everything that was given to another class in aoe/range, was stripped from the nightblade on single target abilities.

Let that sink in. And people are suggesting improvements. Yet here you are preaching to the choir. Telling nightblades how they shouldnt have something because you feel it harms your templar. lol

At least youd get to keep it.