Disappearing Herbs From Nodes in The Hollow City (ColdHarbour) - Bug, Artifact, or Exploit?

Shadowshire · May 2019

There is no screenshot of a situation that I have been increasingly finding with Herb nodes in The Hollow City (Cold Harbour) -- because, literally, there is nothing to see. Since often my characters have regularly gathered Herbs in The Hollow City, during at least the past least three years, I have come to believe that I've seen everything. But, apparently not yet.

What happens is:

I see a Herb as it is spawning, or already spawned (my character has the maximum Keen Eye passive trait for each Crafting skill set that has one).
So, I move the character near enough to display the Interactive Prompt "Collect".
When I press the key bound to the Interactive Prompt, my character stops moving, but the Herb vanishes -- usually in a puff of smoke.
Of course, there is no animation of my character collecting the Herb, nor is there any audible confirmation of succeeding, and the Herb is not added to the character's Craft Bag.

On the face of it, this could be (and probably is) the result of some flaw in the ESO game software and system which ZOS/Bethesda run.

Notes:

(1) Although not very often, the Herb vanishes either before I press the key to Collect it, or apparently it vanishes simultaneously when I do so. If I do press the key before the Interactive Prompt also disappears, the character stops moving. Perhaps I might (but usually not) see another player's character in the vicinity of the node when that happens.

(2) Often another player's character is in the vicinity. Usually I see them continuing to move away from the site as if the character did not stop to gather the Herb, and there was no animation of the character stopping to do that which I could see. Sometimes the other character is mounted, and there was not any animation of the character dismounting and gathering it, followed by an animation for summoning the mount. Often the character's mount makes a lot of noise when it appears, and in these situations, I have not heard any. Regardless, there is also not any "kabonk" sound which signifies a conflict that temporarily disables my character's ability to gather another Herb(s).

(3) On occasions in times past I have observed (and reported) players whose character could and did gather Herbs while continuing to move. And I have seen (and reported) players whose characters gathered Herbs while mounted without dismounting, although ordinarily the mounted character stopped moving at the node to collect the Herb. However, I have always been able to see them do that while my character is some distance away from the spawning/spawned node. In the most recent situations, I do not see any other player's character either approach or stop at the node while my character is either approaching it, or after I have already pressed the keybind for the Interactive Prompt, which causes my character to stop moving and gather the Herb.

Again, sometimes no other player's character is in view. Perhaps it is possible that some player is running software that modifies the game client, which uses internal "God mode" options to always gather a Herb, and perhaps do that unseen. Such a feature could be exercisable at the player's option, else gathering would occur with the normal animation(s).

(4) I am quite aware of the significance of FPS and Network Latency upon whether what is displayed is the actual -- but ever-changing -- game-state produced by the megaserver for my character's current position. The respective game client meters for them are always displayed on the HUD, unless I am interacting with a UI (e.g., the Bank, Guild Bank, or Guild Store). Which is to say that I have plenty of experience with regard to taking them into account as to whether whatever I see might be outdated, whether an illusion. Be that as it may, they do not seem to have any effect upon whether this "disappearing spawn" event occurs.

See also: PC NA Buggy Nodes

Please advise. If you want screenshots that show other player characters which were currently gathering Herbs in The Hollow City at the time that one or more Herbs vanished when my character attempted to collect them, then please let me know. I will not name them or display the screenshots in a public forum. Albeit, I would not doubt that any one or more of them is capable of using some exploit, whether I have enough evidence of such for their ingame actiities to be investigated.

Thank-you for your time and attention to this issue.

Ashtaris · May 2019

I believe node gathering is not specific to your instance. Someone might be in another instance of your zone. They see a node and take it. You might not see them, but the node they took disappears from your instance. I’ve seen this happen several times just gathering nodes in various zones.

Shadowshire · May 2019

Ashtaris wrote: »

I believe node gathering is not specific to your instance. Someone might be in another instance of your zone. They see a node and take it. You might not see them, but the node they took disappears from your instance. I’ve seen this happen several times just gathering nodes in various zones.

FWIW, I thought about that possibility, too. Regardless of why it occurs, it should not occur. That is the bottom line.

Usually, though, there is some symbol above another player character's head when that character is in a different instance, although the software does not show that player character per se. I have seen that happen in Quest instances. What they do ordinarily does not affect your character's game-state, but your character might not be able to do what the other player's character does because your respective characters are in "different instances". That is a bug, and, in my prior experience, one which ZOS has eventually corrected.

desndb · May 2019

I have seen this happen also. Though when I've experienced it, there was no one around me. Just today, I went to gather an herb (again, completely alone in the area) and it disappeared before I even reached it. I chalk it up to bugs, because the alternative (ghost-ninja mat farming) scares me a bit.

maxjapank · May 2019

I'm sorry if I don't explain this well, or if I'm a bit off. Maybe someone else can chime in.

It used to be the case before One Tamriel, that Coldharbor for a lvl 50 toon (before doing the final quest) and Coldharbor for a Vet 1 lvl toon after doing the quest were different instances. You could park a toon who hadn't done the final quest in Coldharbor and farm herbs to your delight. If you went there after finishing the final quest, then you would end up competing with lots of people. Not many people knew this so the one's who just parked their toons there without doing the final quest weren't so many. It was a gold mine for these players. However, it still appeared that some of the herbs overlapped with both instances. You wouldn't see anyone, but the herb would disappear.

Again, maybe someone else can explain it better. It's been so long since I farmed there. But I used get a ton of herbs this way.

Shadowshire · May 2019

maxjapank wrote: »

...
It used to be the case before One Tamriel, that Coldharbor for a lvl 50 toon (before doing the final quest) and Coldharbor for a Vet 1 lvl toon after doing the quest were different instances. You could park a toon who hadn't done the final quest in Coldharbor and farm herbs to your delight. If you went there after finishing the final quest, then you would end up competing with lots of people. Not many people knew this so the one's who just parked their toons there without doing the final quest weren't so many. It was a gold mine for these players. However, it still appeared that some of the herbs overlapped with both instances. You wouldn't see anyone, but the herb would disappear. ....

Yes, I remember the first time that one of my characters discovered The Hollow City. He was at least Veteran Rank 1. Albeit, the game was (re)designed to make it feasible for Level 40 characters to find and to quest in Cold Harbour -- eventually to defeat Molag Bal and reclaim the soul of the character qua "vestige". I never saw any other player's character present in The Hollow City before that character did so. This was true for the second character whom I also developed before One Tamriel.

In that context, yes, occasionally a Herb might disappear before my character could colllect it. However, when my character attempted to collect a Herb at the same time the player-character "in the other instance" attempted to collect it, too, the game client displayed a system message: "Someone is using that." That phenomenon occasionally also occurred in other zones, such as in Eastmarch while one of my characters was farming ore nodes. In my extensive experience however, that message has become very rarely displayd in The Hollow City. I cannot recall the most recent time when I saw it.

So, I am familiar with the phenomenon which you have explained. However, I doubt that has been happening since Herbs began disappearing after Elsweyr was released on the PTS. Or perhaps it has, but the system message is no longer displayed. It seems that the ZOS developers cannot avoid unforseen consequences when they introduce or change any Base Game feature(s).

The contrast between the eerie "ghost town" which my first two characters discovered, and The Hollow City which the second pair respectively encountered, was rather startling (and dismaying). They still pursued "The Army of Meridia" quest to find the NPCs to staff the Enchanter and Alchemy shops, among others, of course. But the City certainly had an abundance of other player characters from the outset after One Tamriel, many of them evidently there just to run around the Herb-collecting circuit.

By the way, it did not occur to me -- and would never occur to me -- to "park" any character there and play that one just to farm Herbs without any competition. (Although all of my characters became crafters, and currently I am an active participant in three "trade guilds".) FWIW, I am not a "it's just a game" player. Rather, I seek and enjoy an immersive experience while enacting the story brought to life during a Quest, through the decisions and actions that I choose while playing as a game character. In other words, the character serves as my avatar in the fantasy world portrayed by the game.

So, I don't look for ways and means to use the game design and implementation to my advantage as a player, whether as a competitor with other players. Further, IMHO, the principal justification for creating an Online FRPG is the opportunity to join with other players and work together to achieve goals of the game. Which is to say that personally, I do not play TESO to find competitors (or to seek other players as enemies), or to endeavor have a character at the top of some "leader board" and to keep the character in "first place".

In contrast, what I have seen, increasingly, in The Hollow City ever since One Tamriel has been the worst side of the competitive paradigmn, ranging from bots to outright cheats -- all because it is the best zone that I (at least) have ever found with a "circuit" for collecting each and every one of the eleven Herbs which comprise the core of Alchemy.

Something that I've also noted over the years is that the majority of the characters who are clearly the most competitive usually have PvP titles and gear. Some are not just there to collect as many Herbs as possible as quickly as possible -- substitute "Dollars" for "Herbs" in the preceeding phrase and you have the capitalist corporation paradigmn in a nutshell -- they delight in frustrating and/or driving away any player-character who (by necessity of the design) must compete with them. There will always be some who will cheat to "win" on their terms, if they can.

maxjapank · May 2019

Well, I haven't really experienced those frustrating players. And I have no idea what could be causing the disappearing herbs then. When you've played the game as long as I have and really only spend gold on one toon, then your gold just begins to build over time. I doubt I'll ever have to farm again.

Haenk · May 2019

"out of phase" experiences do happen all over the world, this is not limited to Hollow City.
Two (?) weeks ago I stumbled across "out of phase" critters - once you got near them, they disappeared, once you moved away, they were visible again.

This *should* not happen, but, well, this is just one of the bugs that haven been in game for years.

Jaimeh · May 2019

It happens with nodes in other zones too, ie. they disappear before you are able to collect them. To my knowledge it's because somebody else is picking the node in another instance of the same area, but no idea why this is possible. I noticed a funny thing about a Coldharbour alchemy node though at the bottom of the stairs near the alchemy station: sometimes when you try to pick it, you get a prompt that says 'Somebody is using that' even when you are the only person there, and the node doesn't disappear like when another player is picking it in a copied instance. Combined with the eerie atmosphere in the Hollow City, it gave me the chills when I first saw it

I went back and checked, and sometimes it allows me to pick the node up, sometimes it gives me that message, and the node stays put, I guess it's one of those Tamriel mysteries

Imza · May 2019

you haven't mentioned despawn timers.

Like with chests, alchemy nodes will disappear after a time.

This may be the cause of your disappearing nodes?

idk · May 2019

This has happened since the game launched and is not specific to ColdHarbor.

I have thought like others that the nodes are not instance based. If that is the case it is working as intended. If that is not the case then their is either a bug or bots.

It would be worth Zos actually confirming if it is not instance based and working as intended. Otherwise our imagination can run wild since bots are prevalent in the area and those of us that were her at PC launch has seen some very peculiar things from bots like them moving from one place to another unseen.

Shadowshire · May 2019

Imza wrote: »

you haven't mentioned despawn timers.

Like with chests, alchemy nodes will disappear after a time.

This may be the cause of your disappearing nodes?

Heh, frankly, I doubt that any "despawn timer" will ever remove a Herb in The Hollow City! In my experience, the average lifespan of a Herb in The Hollow City is probably less than 60 seconds at most.

Then again, a bugged "despawn timer" algorithim could be killing Herbs prematurely, of course. You realize that I chose to report this phenomenon in the Bug Report Forum, right?

Shadowshire · May 2019

idk wrote: »

...
I have thought like others that the nodes are not instance based. If that is the case it is working as intended. If that is not the case then their is either a bug or bots.

If the software is "working as intended", then that would be a design flaw, of course. Else, the Herb's disappearance is a bug.

It would be worth Zos actually confirming if it is not instance based and working as intended. Otherwise our imagination can run wild since bots are prevalent in the area and those of us that were her at PC launch has seen some very peculiar things from bots like them moving from one place to another unseen.

Certainly, I agree that ZOS does need to consider this matter. The developers should either correct the errors, or affirm that the disappearing Herbs are an acceptable (?) artifact of the game design and/or its implementation. Whether resource nodes are "instance based" does not justify whether a spawned resource automagically disappears as I have described.

As to players who run bots and/or cheat engines that modify the game client to exploit the megaserver, unfortunately, those are not "imaginary". In fact, ordinarily their activity is displayed for all to see. Whether the other players recognize it for what it is, and send a /bug "Exploit" report(s) in-game, with a screenshot which shows the name of the player account (attached), is another matter entirely.

Personally, I seldom do that right away (although, some actions, such as collecting without stopping or without dismounting, are flagrant violations of the game design). Rather, I continue to observe what the player character does in the course of play.

For many player-characters, there is a fine line between what is possible within the scope of the game -- which I have learned, and in some respects, I am still learning -- and what the character does that might be outside that scope. What it boils down to is you gotta really know how to optimize a character's ability to rapidly and efficiently collect Herbs, and learn how to do that only with your own manual input.

Eventually, I decide either that what I see is plausibly within the scope of the game design, else, that they should be investigated by ZOS personnel. It would not at all surprise me if any competing players have reported that I am running a bot or doing something that they believe is outside the limits of the game design. They believe that because they don't know all of the things which any player can do without violating the ZOS Terms of Service.

For example, any player character can use an Invisbility potion and move to another location unseen by other player characters. But a character cannot collect a Herb without becoming visible to all of the other player characters in view -- unless the player whose character does that without becoming visible is using a cheat engine, of course.

Last, but not least, dishonest game-play is not confined to collecting Herbs in The Hollow City. FWIW, I have also suspected that some player-characters are robots or using exploits to collect resources in Upper Craglorn, in particular, and, on occasion, in Wrothgar. ..... Hmmm .... I wonder whether anyone is running a Fishing 'bot?

Shadowshire · May 2019

Jaimeh wrote: »

It happens with nodes in other zones too, ie. they disappear before you are able to collect them. .... I noticed a funny thing about a Coldharbour alchemy node though at the bottom of the stairs near the alchemy station: sometimes when you try to pick it, you get a prompt that says 'Somebody is using that' even when you are the only person there, and the node doesn't disappear like when another player is picking it in a copied instance. .... I went back and checked, and sometimes it allows me to pick the node up, sometimes it gives me that message, and the node stays put, I guess it's one of those Tamriel mysteries

Well, it is not a mystery, it is a well-known bug. Just about any resource node in the game, not only in The Hollow City, can become "uncollectable". That is, the player obtains the Interactive Prompt "Collect", and when they press the key in response, the message "Somebody is using that." is displayed in the upper righthand corner of the HUD.

If a player reports the incident to ZOS, then it is usually corrected in the next maintenance patch -- sometimes before the next one is performed. So, I take a screenshot of the spawned Herb which shows its location, then enter /bug in the Chat Window; select the appropriate Feedback categories from the dropdowns; describe the problem, then attach the screenshot when I submit the report.

Imza · May 2019

Shadowshire wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

you haven't mentioned despawn timers.

Like with chests, alchemy nodes will disappear after a time.

This may be the cause of your disappearing nodes?

Heh, frankly, I doubt that any "despawn timer" will ever remove a Herb in The Hollow City! In my experience, the average lifespan of a Herb in The Hollow City is probably less than 60 seconds at most.

Then again, a bugged "despawn timer" algorithim could be killing Herbs prematurely, of course. You realize that I chose to report this phenomenon in the Bug Report Forum, right?

I use the recent menu - so I have no idea which forum I'm reading... too lazy to pay attention...

Nestor · May 2019

The Hollow City has been doing this since release of the game. It seems that the instances of this city overlap with each other. Note, other areas do this too, but it's more noticeable in the Hollow City due to the density of the nodes and the harvesting activity.

Anyway, it is common to have this happen up there.

Not much you can do about it. I stopped farming there years ago once I found some other node rich areas in the game. And, started doing Alchemy Writs which really helps with Reagents.