Qbiken wrote: »

mjharper wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

CP isn’t the main cause of power creep. It’s a contributor, but there are much bigger factors. Gear colours provide much bigger steps in power - upgrading your weapon from blue to purple, or purple to gold, for example, makes a colossal difference. Two full 5 piece sets and a 2 piece monster or weapon set, compared to an equal level player equipping whatever gear they find naturally, is another huge difference in power. CP is fairly balanced in comparison, but when you add all those systems together it leads to a huge difference.

Personally, I’d like to see gear colours make a smaller difference, and leave CP and set bonuses as they are. But the rebalancing required to make that work will be tricky. Especially in harder dungeons like Fang Lair / Scalecaller.

Fundamentally disagree there. Yes, gear level is important, but even gold gear is scaled to 160. Gold gear doesn't get more powerful with every DLC. That's not to say that reducing the differences between gear colours, as you suggest, might be a good idea. But the primary issue with power creep is the CP cap level increases.

CP is far from the main culprit for power creep. From a PvE perspective, all CP added over a year of updates will cause a DPS increase of maybe 7-10% at best. You tell me where the rest of the "powercreep" comes from.......

People highly overestimate CP when it comes to powercreep and fail to realise that the majority of powercreep comes from the changes ZOS does to other combat related mechanics. An example of this is how ZOS buffed light attacks in summerset or made enchants more potent with Murkmire so they could proc more reliable, or when they did a major overhaul to how off-balance works with wrathstone. These 3 changes alone have had more impact on powercreep than CP will ever have.

This is exactly it.. CP is not the cause of the jumps in Power Creep in this game. It's how ZOS changes the meta and then buffs things light the Light Attacks.

Example: As a disabled player, I can't animation cancel with Attack weaving consistently. When we had the Heavy Attack Meta, I was able to get at least 28k DPS. With a little more practice I could have pulled higher. Then ZOS went and changed the meta to Light Attack Weaving which requires much higher skill, less LAG and what happened is my DPS dropped down to 20k mainly because I can't light attack weave reliably in between skills and therefore cannot take advantage of the sets like Relequen properly. I could switch and play a magicka toon but I find them boring and not enjoyable at all.

Newer more powerful armor has a hand in this as well.. Not so much the fact it's Epic or Legendary. But unless you can actually take advantage of the Light Attack Meta, you aren't going to be pulling the DPS like those who can, and the difference in that DPS is significant. Some will say it's only about 7-10k on light attacks, but then you also have to add in the extra procs from sets, skills, and other abilities. Those all add up. Light attacks shouldn't be so strong.

I'm used to having x amount of power and soloing certain content. If I log on tomorrow and that's gone, why would I stay? So I can spam zone chat and wait for people to help me do what I can now? Obviously I'll just play a different game.

barney2525 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

I'd be happy for them to remove 160 CP points. In fact, it might even be required in order to remove the CP system if that is their intention.

Items are Level 50, CP 160. If they were to double the level to 100, and remove CP they would be able to successfully depeg items from the CP system.

It should have no consequence on a fully leveled character with CP160 gear, and no actual consequence (other than a bit of confusion) on a sub 50 character.

How it works is, everyones base level doubles, as does their item level. Level 30? You are now level 60. Level 50? Now level 100.

160 CP points could be deducted from every bodies account at that point. MAX CP is now 650.

Going forward, characters have to level to 100 rather than 50. It would take a bit longer to level alts. They could even have 100 attribute points (same output as what 64 presently gives).

For CP to be removed cleanly, CP needs to be depegged from items without significant consequence to players.

It would also make the 10 tiers of mats relevant again. Although I think they should be trimmed to 5 tiers in 20 level increments rather than 10 in 10 level. Eg. Iron 1-20, Steel 21-40, Orc 41-60, Dwarf 61-80, Ebony 81-100, scrap the rest.

---

As people lose CP but gain base level they may not feel robbed and be fine with it. However, if ZOS wanted to ease the subtraction of 160 points, they could roll some perks together, ie Mooncalf / Arcanist benefit are put under one perk. Full stam builds won't benefit greatly, nor will mag builds benefit. Hybrid builds will get a little bump though. Light / Med / Heavy can be rolled into one too, as people cant wear 5 piece of each type at any given time .

---

End result. CP cap lowered, Items depegged from CP, CP system shrunk down a bit. Progression of players has not been attacked or robbed in any significant way. The game is now ready for a controlled demolition and replacement of the CP system.

Congratulations.

You just skrugeed every new player and drove them away from the game.

"Here ya go" "All you gotta do is reach level 100 - That's One Hundred - and then you can start gaining champion points.

I really do like the way you glossed over the "It would take a BIT longer to level Alts". Yeah, like MONTHS and YEARS to do one, since every level is going to require more XP than the previous one. And exactly Where is all this XP coming from? IMHO it would be extremely difficult to reach 100 levels doing Every quest in Every region in the game.

ESO would definitely NOT be a game played by the Casual player anymore.

I think there is a circular file where we can place this plan.

I like the way you just invented my position on the fly.

Leveling to 50 doesn't take long. I said, leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer.

You could either invent nonsense like you did, or;

You could take it as, when I said 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer', what I actually mean is, 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer'. Duh.

This could mean, the XP required between levels is shorter? Or you could interpret it in a manner that seems to have grossly upset you.

If getting to level 50 takes a relatively dedicated, but casual player 1 week, I have no objection to it being 1-2 weeks to get to 100.

Edit: I think you'll find by extending base levels, that gives many that want vet levels back a bit of something to chew on, whilst keeping an account wide CP level system. No way how you look at this situation, ZOS has made it clear they are re-evaluating CP. This could mean they give it a paint job, this could mean they remove it, overhaul it, replace it with something entirely new. ZOS needs to do something about the items in the game if they plan on removing it given items are bound to CP.

The game is as difficult as players choose to make it. No one is forced to allocate cp, or to run bis gear or optimized builds. The covenant was broken once already with the removal of vet ranks, now they've stopped allowing us to use the points we've already earned. This, on top of an entire year to date of constant nerfs. I don't consider power creep to be a pressing problem, and I'm not pleased with the current cp freeze. Will the third time be the charm? Colour me skeptical.

Meh... having 900cp on console and 700cp on pc, i couldnt give a *** about it. They could remove cp entirely tomorrow and i would be completely unfazed.

There are those who have the mindset that cp is something they rightfully earned and thus are entitled to and any move to remove or reduce said gains would be taken as a direct offense to their time spent aquiring them.

Then there is the camp that views CP as an uninteresting arbitrary power progression system that is aquired passivley just by playing the game and places no stock into them in a meaningful way. Any drastic ajustments to cp is just the devs committing to some form of balance in their eyes and does nothing to differentiate skilled players from amateur ones is it is not actually any kind of skill ceiling.

Personally im of the later camp. I find it completely inconsequential to anything I do outside of commiting resources for builds that function in both cp and no cp environments. And in no way to consider "my earned" cp as anything other than a game wide governing power balance system. And frankly each and every point earned post 810 is just as much a joke as is reducing cp caps further. Its all the same nonsense. But this is the bed zos made for themselves when opting for a non vertical progression mmorpg and still needing to produce the proverbial carrot at the end of the stick.

Shrug*

How about we just leave things alone

What if the percentages and multiples in CP are reduced?

For example: A caster putting points in Staff Expert receives a 1.5% damage increase (this is an example only) per point So, I put 30 points in there and my damage goes up by 45%.

First reduce the percentage, maybe to .25% per point, and then put a limit of 10 points max on this category. That would reduce the overall damage increase to 2.5%.

Then, if you go past CP 160, have an additional reduction in place. Enough to not have some crazy numbers increase, but enough for players to want to increase their overall CP. And continue to keep the numbers low for players that go up to 800, or whatever the high CP cap is.

I'd rather have a system that gives me something, than a reworked CP system, or a deleted system, where I get nothing after all these years. I once looked at putting some points in an area that would increase the quality of items I find in chests. Great idea, but you had (or still have) to put 75 points in it. That limits what you can put in the other two areas of that specific CP. That wasn't worth it to me. I distributed those 75 points into the other areas to balance my character. I think that was just a little to much to the other side of the scale.

I just hope ZOS is tracking all these suggestions and see how players think about this system, instead of just arbitrarily changes things.

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I kinda miss Veteran Levels.

I do too but most players could not handle it. With anything Zos does, hopefully they will learn to tweak a little, rather then demolish things.

Op worst idea....So No, Nopes, and Nyet

we agree for ones

im over the cp cap i dont care if they remove cp it just creates imbalance pvp and pve wise. many tanks just run vets with 3 dps these days. who needs healers when u have cp lol.

CompM4s wrote: »

CP adds the ability to make a larger variety of builds.

sets do but not cp. cp supports the build ur going for nothing else. cp isnt Path of exile skill system.

richo262 wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

I'd be happy for them to remove 160 CP points. In fact, it might even be required in order to remove the CP system if that is their intention.

Items are Level 50, CP 160. If they were to double the level to 100, and remove CP they would be able to successfully depeg items from the CP system.

It should have no consequence on a fully leveled character with CP160 gear, and no actual consequence (other than a bit of confusion) on a sub 50 character.

How it works is, everyones base level doubles, as does their item level. Level 30? You are now level 60. Level 50? Now level 100.

160 CP points could be deducted from every bodies account at that point. MAX CP is now 650.

Going forward, characters have to level to 100 rather than 50. It would take a bit longer to level alts. They could even have 100 attribute points (same output as what 64 presently gives).

For CP to be removed cleanly, CP needs to be depegged from items without significant consequence to players.

It would also make the 10 tiers of mats relevant again. Although I think they should be trimmed to 5 tiers in 20 level increments rather than 10 in 10 level. Eg. Iron 1-20, Steel 21-40, Orc 41-60, Dwarf 61-80, Ebony 81-100, scrap the rest.

---

As people lose CP but gain base level they may not feel robbed and be fine with it. However, if ZOS wanted to ease the subtraction of 160 points, they could roll some perks together, ie Mooncalf / Arcanist benefit are put under one perk. Full stam builds won't benefit greatly, nor will mag builds benefit. Hybrid builds will get a little bump though. Light / Med / Heavy can be rolled into one too, as people cant wear 5 piece of each type at any given time .

---

End result. CP cap lowered, Items depegged from CP, CP system shrunk down a bit. Progression of players has not been attacked or robbed in any significant way. The game is now ready for a controlled demolition and replacement of the CP system.

Congratulations.

You just skrugeed every new player and drove them away from the game.

"Here ya go" "All you gotta do is reach level 100 - That's One Hundred - and then you can start gaining champion points.

I really do like the way you glossed over the "It would take a BIT longer to level Alts". Yeah, like MONTHS and YEARS to do one, since every level is going to require more XP than the previous one. And exactly Where is all this XP coming from? IMHO it would be extremely difficult to reach 100 levels doing Every quest in Every region in the game.

ESO would definitely NOT be a game played by the Casual player anymore.

I think there is a circular file where we can place this plan.

I like the way you just invented my position on the fly.

Leveling to 50 doesn't take long. I said, leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer.

You could either invent nonsense like you did, or;

You could take it as, when I said 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer', what I actually mean is, 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer'. Duh.

This could mean, the XP required between levels is shorter? Or you could interpret it in a manner that seems to have grossly upset you.

If getting to level 50 takes a relatively dedicated, but casual player 1 week, I have no objection to it being 1-2 weeks to get to 100.

Edit: I think you'll find by extending base levels, that gives many that want vet levels back a bit of something to chew on, whilst keeping an account wide CP level system. No way how you look at this situation, ZOS has made it clear they are re-evaluating CP. This could mean they give it a paint job, this could mean they remove it, overhaul it, replace it with something entirely new. ZOS needs to do something about the items in the game if they plan on removing it given items are bound to CP.

First off, you are not explaining why you say "leveling to 50 doesn't take long". You just running Dolmens? Just running dungeons? You are certainly Not following the questlines and playing the majority of the game, because the simple fact of Time it takes to move from point A to point B, stop and deal with things like Inventory and making new gear when needed,, pick up mats from nodes, mage books, etc, precludes getting to 50 in a "short amount of time". I know it may come as a surprise, but there are a number of players who want to actually Enjoy the game while leveling.

Now you want to jump it up to 100 levels. Every single level will require more XP than the previous level. Total XP for level 50 is 2.8 Million required. 49 to 50 requires 187, 494, about 9000 more than 48 to 49. So going to 51 will take about 197000 more, as we keep adding on based on the previous level and the additional interest, so to speak.

There is literally no basis for your suggestion that less XP will be required between levels after 50 is a possibility. The system they use is already in place, set in stone. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Leveling

It makes no sense that the company would suddenly say, OK, after level 50 the XP requirement declines every level.

You are Not starting with 70 XP = 1 level gain, like at level 1. You are continuing to stack the XP required on to level 50. It won't take 5.6 million to reach level 100. It will probably take between 10 and 15 Million XP, at a minimum. Where, in the game, is all this XP coming from? There is No way they are going change the questline XP. Whatever you can get now with all your xp buffs, (For example - 30,000 XP), is still the max you could get as you pass level 50. So it will take MANY more quests/dungeons/dolmens etc to grind all the way up to level 100.

ESO would gain the reputation as the New Leader in MMO Grinding.

On the other hand, are you suggesting they will completely revamp the system and make going up levels require less XP, so the characters progress faster? What would the point be? If the character can reach 100 as fast as they used to reach 50, what was the purpose for changing it? Is it simply to flood the characters with skill points so that they don't even have anything to spend them all on?

What you never say anything about is - What do the characters get as they go up from 51 to 100? New Skills? New Passives? Or is it 50 levels of skill points and Nothing new to spend them on?

And as for just arbitrarily doubling levels... a free 10 million XP (if they flat based every level after 50 to 200,000 xp) per character ... I'm guessing you probably have more than one character that would automatically pop into the 100 range. And again, what happens with those skill points? There are 13 skill points every 10 levels. Do they just add 65 skill points to those new level 100 characters?


IMHO, this idea was not thought through.

barney2525 wrote: »

First off, you are not explaining why you say "leveling to 50 doesn't take long". You just running Dolmens? Just running dungeons? You are certainly Not following the questlines and playing the majority of the game, because the simple fact of Time it takes to move from point A to point B, stop and deal with things like Inventory and making new gear when needed,, pick up mats from nodes, mage books, etc, precludes getting to 50 in a "short amount of time". I know it may come as a surprise, but there are a number of players who want to actually Enjoy the game while leveling.

No, running dolmens would level in a day.Yes, following quest lines. When I level an alt I run every dungeon as a tank and the main quest, for all the skill points. I also run crag for a nirn item. I'll also run Psijic for shards / lore books and the skill line.

Making new gear? I thought you said 'new casual players'. Be consistent, now they are leveling an alt that relies on their main to craft gear?

I adopted a wow noob 3 days ago, his first character, he is already level 37. I made him one set at level 16.

In any event, so what if leveling your first character takes twice as long? There is twice the content in the game.

barney2525 wrote: »

Now you want to jump it up to 100 levels. Every single level will require more XP than the previous level. Total XP for level 50 is 2.8 Million required. 49 to 50 requires 187, 494, about 9000 more than 48 to 49. So going to 51 will take about 197000 more, as we keep adding on based on the previous level and the additional interest, so to speak.

There you again, making things up. I'll repeat my position from my last response because what I say, and what you screech back you seem to think is relevant.

You could take it as, when I said 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer', what I actually mean is, 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer'. Duh.

I'll make it clearer, 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer'. Now, you are more than welcome to pretend I said, 'leveling to 100 should take much longer' but you would in fact be reading things I did not say.

barney2525 wrote: »

There is literally no basis for your suggestion that less XP will be required between levels after 50 is a possibility. The system they use is already in place, set in stone. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Leveling

It makes no sense that the company would suddenly say, OK, after level 50 the XP requirement declines every level.

You are Not starting with 70 XP = 1 level gain, like at level 1. You are continuing to stack the XP required on to level 50. It won't take 5.6 million to reach level 100. It will probably take between 10 and 15 Million XP, at a minimum. Where, in the game, is all this XP coming from? There is No way they are going change the questline XP. Whatever you can get now with all your xp buffs, (For example - 30,000 XP), is still the max you could get as you pass level 50. So it will take MANY more quests/dungeons/dolmens etc to grind all the way up to level 100.

OR, you don't do that. You could actually, ahem... let me repeat myself here, 'leveling to 100 shouldn't take much longer'.

You mean like how CP points start to hit a base line for XP required to get to the next level? How they do not exponentially increase in XP required? It's some sort of sorcery isn't it?

Okay, so what you do is, you reduce the stack between levels, so the time it takes to get to level 50 for the average player using both hands (about 1 week), the player, using some sort of sorcery (clearly not fathomable by you thus far) actually ends up being about level 75 with the SAME XP. Then, wait for it, this is where it will blow your mind. The path from level 75 - 100 does not exponentially grow at the ridiculous proportions you have irrationally concluded that I support.

barney2525 wrote: »

On the other hand, are you suggesting they will completely revamp the system and make going up levels require less XP, so the characters progress faster? What would the point be? If the character can reach 100 as fast as they used to reach 50, what was the purpose for changing it? Is it simply to flood the characters with skill points so that they don't even have anything to spend them all on?

What you never say anything about is - What do the characters get as they go up from 51 to 100? New Skills? New Passives? Or is it 50 levels of skill points and Nothing new to spend them on?

Okay, so now it feels like we're having the same conversation, great. So, the purpose, as was clearly stated, is to remove CP from items giving ZOS the lee-way to redesign CP how they wish.

50 levels in the game, 64 att points, 64 skills derived from leveling. I'm no mathematician but it appears to me that the level, and the total reward does not appear to be the same. I made no mention of skill points intentionally, but I did say, if they wished to reward players per level with something they could make 100 attribute points with the same weight at the present 64.

barney2525 wrote: »

And as for just arbitrarily doubling levels... a free 10 million XP (if they flat based every level after 50 to 200,000 xp) per character ... I'm guessing you probably have more than one character that would automatically pop into the 100 range. And again, what happens with those skill points? There are 13 skill points every 10 levels. Do they just add 65 skill points to those new level 100 characters?

Everyone gets a free pony, no idea what you're on about. Are we doing the whole, inventing my position again then screeching about it thing again?

Just make cp system something like gold earn or some *** that doesnt matter.