DB on a not completely evil character?

worrallj · May 2019

Is there any way to do the DB zone story without being flagrantly evil and killing Innocents for kicks?

I mean besides coming up with complex mitigating head cannon about being an undercover agent and the Innocents you kill are actually in on it faking their deaths.

ArchangelIsraphel · May 2019

Unfortunately the only way around it really seems to be developing a headcanon since the DB questline often requires you to kill people that are innocent in order to get through it. That or kinda rush through it without paying attention to the dialogue and making up your own story as to why you're doing what you're doing in order to unlock the skill set. (Though if you actually want to see what the story is that won't really work) I didn't like the DB myself so I kind of grin and pretend it never happened on the one character I unlocked dailies on in order to get event tickets a while back. Unfortunately there aren't any choices, you're assumed to be evil/enjoy killing.

(TBH I found the story line rather shallow and thought it could use more depth/more options.)

IsharaMeradin · May 2019

You don't have to kill innocents for kicks. Just do the black sacrament daily until the next quest in the story line becomes available. The dialog for the black sacraments makes it pretty clear that the targets are not the most law abiding citizens out there. They're no better than some others that get killed in the normal every day quests in the rest of the game.

However, avoid the non-stop repeatable quests. Those just send you off to kill regular NPCs for the heck of it.

The only "innocent" murder that needs doing is the one in Anvil.

Royaji · May 2019

The whole story in Gold Coast is based around DB. Without DB questline Gold Coast has some dailies and maybe a couple of fetch side-quests

Shardaxx · May 2019

Yeah sure. The Blade of Woe won't kill innocent targets so if the prompt comes up, you're good to go.

Salvas_Aren · May 2019

You have to unlock the achievement Murderer, at least in Alinor Anvil, to get the Blade of Woe.

So ... talking about not evil ...

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Aliyavana · May 2019

To be fair, the main enemies of the dlc deserve to die.

Mik195 · May 2019

I decided that my character lost her mind after being killed by Molag Bol and once the storyline is done, she'll get over her nihilism.

Ilsabet · May 2019

It's pretty much how you headcanon it, although it doesn't have to be a complex shuck-and-jive with a flimsy premise. My generally neutral good character was in an emotional tailspin after certain other events and that kind of opened the door for her to get swept down a darker path than she normally would have considered. It did involve a lot of soul-searching and regrets over things she did, but it also provided an interesting perspective on people and experiences she encountered there. It all worked out quite well for her story, which was a relief since I'd originally had the same concerns about how to justify my hero becoming a murderer.

Nightowl_74 · May 2019

I play my character as true neutral, as per the old Dungeons & Dragons rules when it was frowned on (within my group at least) due to a general consensus that any true neutral person would have to be insane. It's an alignment I always wanted to try but it was never a good fit with others.

She sees herself as an agent of equilibrium, helping to maintain a balance between good and evil in the world. According to her philosophy without evil to define it good would become meaningless, so she's always careful to compensate. The idea of being either highly altruistic or sadistic fascinates her because she can't understand either one but due to that fixation she's often drawn to others who embody those extremes. DB is perfect because for every life she saves, someone has to die.

starkerealm · May 2019

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

You have to unlock the achievement Murderer, at least in Alinor, to get the Blade of Woe.

Anvil... not that it matters.

starkerealm · May 2019

Nightowl_74 wrote: »

I play my character as true neutral, as per the old Dungeons & Dragons rules when it was frowned on (within my group at least) due to a general consensus that any true neutral person would have to be insane. It's an alignment I always wanted to try but it was never a good fit with others.

She sees herself as an agent of equilibrium, helping to maintain a balance between good and evil in the world. According to her philosophy without evil to define it good would become meaningless, so she's always careful to compensate. The idea of being either highly altruistic or sadistic fascinates her because she can't understand either one but due to that fixation she's often drawn to others who embody those extremes. DB is perfect because for every life she saves, someone has to die.

You're killing people for gold. That is, by definition, evil on the D&D alignment scale. A principled killer is Lawful Evil, a psychopath is Chaotic Evil, but they're still evil.

Also, true neutral isn't insane, though they do tend to be kinda hard to play, because they really are impartial in most situations.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · May 2019

I'm of the belief that the Vestige is, well... A bit of a nutcase TBH.

Have you seen the monsters he happily walks up to in trials?

Unlike the Dovahkiin, he can't use shouts either. He's a pretty normal bloke in comparison.

LOL

TheShadowScout · May 2019

worrallj wrote: »

Is there any way to do the DB zone story without being flagrantly evil and killing Innocents for kicks?

No.

Next question?

I mean, I suppose you could go with a touch of insanity and just assume -everybody- is guilty of -something-...

...but... well... you'll still have to murderdeathkill a boatload of people for no good reason other then you get paid for it.

Ei8htba11 · May 2019

Are the soldiers in Cyrodil who kill for their faction evil if they get paid? Does swallowing the propaganda of their faction absolve them of guilt then?

Khajiit prefers to leave the politics to others, much like the soldiers. One lives, one dies... another day in Tamriel, yes?

starkerealm · May 2019

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

Are the soldiers in Cyrodil who kill for their faction evil if they get paid?

Are they evil, or is it an act of defense, protecting themselves from being conqured by one of the other alliances?

Or, are you asking if war is, intrinsicly, evil, in which case... yeah, probably.

Ei8htba11 · May 2019

Perhaps this one has been hired for an act of self defense. Again, this one doesn't go into the intricacies, it will only complicate things.

As for your question, that is one for the politicians to justify (justly, or not).

Tyrobag · May 2019

Mental breakdown - works every time!

Salvas_Aren · May 2019

Or be evil enough to hail Sithis.

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Runefang · May 2019

Just assume everybody you kill deserves to die. I mean youve already waded through camps of enemy soldiers, miners and villagers already. They had families, partners, some would have lived good lives. Whats a few more murders?

Nightowl_74 · May 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Nightowl_74 wrote: »

I play my character as true neutral, as per the old Dungeons & Dragons rules when it was frowned on (within my group at least) due to a general consensus that any true neutral person would have to be insane. It's an alignment I always wanted to try but it was never a good fit with others.

She sees herself as an agent of equilibrium, helping to maintain a balance between good and evil in the world. According to her philosophy without evil to define it good would become meaningless, so she's always careful to compensate. The idea of being either highly altruistic or sadistic fascinates her because she can't understand either one but due to that fixation she's often drawn to others who embody those extremes. DB is perfect because for every life she saves, someone has to die.

You're killing people for gold. That is, by definition, evil on the D&D alignment scale. A principled killer is Lawful Evil, a psychopath is Chaotic Evil, but they're still evil.

Also, true neutral isn't insane, though they do tend to be kinda hard to play, because they really are impartial in most situations.

I don't know, the insane argument wasn't me it was the more experienced players but I'm talking about the old rules. This explanation is a quote from the book and I play as it explains druid, albeit with a heavy emphasis on the part about balance which implements my own interpretation.

A neutral character (also called "true neutral") is neutral on both axes and tends not to feel strongly towards any alignment, or actively seeks their balance.[9] Druids frequently follow this dedication to balance and, under Advanced Dungeons & Dragons rules, were required to be this alignment. In an example given in the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, a typical druid might fight against a band of marauding gnolls, only to switch sides to save the gnolls' clan from being totally exterminated.[8]

I admit to being a relic from the past, I'm sure the rules have changed significantly since 2nd edition and alignment may be more straightforward but I played a lot and my character really is based on the druid example. I'm not saying it's the be all end all, or even up to date, only that the idea of a true neutral character dedicated to balance comes directly from D&D.

Facefister · May 2019

worrallj wrote: »

Is there any way to do the DB zone story without being flagrantly evil and killing Innocents for kicks?

I mean besides coming up with complex mitigating head cannon about being an undercover agent and the Innocents you kill are actually in on it faking their deaths.

People the Brotherhood eliminates are far from innocent.

Zephiran23 · May 2019

Anvil is a city ruled by pirates and inhabited by pirates and ex-pirates. So although not currently engaged in pirating, these are not good people.

Kvatch is a borderline theocracy. I'm not sure everyone there would be a willing follower, but most seem to be willing to go along with it. Nirn has enough problems without another bunch of religious fanatics let loose.

Not too hard to RP your way into killing people in either city.

For the quests in other zones, killing people in other factions to help the war effort or those in yours for similar reasons should be ok.

Speaker delve quests - those are probably criminals of some sort, who are just a bit too good at not leaving enough evidence to convict them for the local authorities. You can still complete quests without poisons if requested, just not for maximum tier rewards.

Overall a long way from good actions, since you are not following any legal code, but it's not like you are just killing pickpocket targets because they don't have any more loot.

twev · May 2019

I think of DB as not 'evil', but just a job.

The game doesn't have karma.

DB might be a different job if karma was involved.

Edited to add:
NPCs are just electrons.
Give them 5 minutes and they're back, taking up space and cheating on their spouses and cheating on their taxes, just like before....

worrallj · May 2019

cameronmccrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Anvil is a city ruled by pirates and inhabited by pirates and ex-pirates. So although not currently engaged in pirating, these are not good people.

Kvatch is a borderline theocracy. I'm not sure everyone there would be a willing follower, but most seem to be willing to go along with it. Nirn has enough problems without another bunch of religious fanatics let loose.

Not too hard to RP your way into killing people in either city.

For the quests in other zones, killing people in other factions to help the war effort or those in yours for similar reasons should be ok.

Speaker delve quests - those are probably criminals of some sort, who are just a bit too good at not leaving enough evidence to convict them for the local authorities. You can still complete quests without poisons if requested, just not for maximum tier rewards.

Overall a long way from good actions, since you are not following any legal code, but it's not like you are just killing pickpocket targets because they don't have any more loot.

Some of this is passable and I get the idea of doing Dexter and pretending your a vigilante, but the first quest to start the whole thing is very simple. The instructions are to "Kill an innocent in Anvil."

NotaDaedraWorshipper · May 2019

If an assassin is evil, no matter who it is they kill. Then what are the people who did the sacrament in the first place? Or the people who warranted someone to do one towards them? Are they free of blame or more guilty than I?

Is the messenger evil for coming with bad news? Or is the executioner, for doing his gruesome job?

What about the soldier? Fighting for the Daggerfall Covenant, oh so far away from home and his loved ones. A honourable defender? The screams I heard him cause, far from any battlefield said otherwise. He was not the first and won't be the last.

Because if they truly were innocent, then mother's sweet voice wouldn't have spoken their name and sent me to them.
Do I enjoy it? Sometimes. But usually it's just a chore, like any other, and I'm nothing but a good child.

-Letter from an anonymous assassin.

It's 5 in the morning and I have no idea why I wrote this.

worrallj · May 2019

Facefister wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Is there any way to do the DB zone story without being flagrantly evil and killing Innocents for kicks?

I mean besides coming up with complex mitigating head cannon about being an undercover agent and the Innocents you kill are actually in on it faking their deaths.

People the Brotherhood eliminates are far from innocent.

The first quest of the chain is to "Kill an innocent."

worrallj · May 2019

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Or be evil enough to hail Sithis.

You have my taro card or something. My main is named "Uriel Stewart Picard."

Silver_Strider · May 2019

Innocence is an illusion cast by society for they are the ones that dictate what is morally right or wrong. However, more often than not, someone will tip that miserably constructed scale and it only a matter of time before we are called to tip the scales back into balance. The Dark Brotherhood does not operate under feeble morality for what is morality truly before the all encompassing gaze of our Dread Father, Sithis? This Three Banner's War has claimed countless lives while their killers are paraded as Heros but in the eyes of a child that has lost their father due to war, how can you claim them as anything but a murderer?

We are a necessity of life. Morality has no place amongst our ranks and you would be wise to cast it aside before accepting our invitation to join our family.

What say you, Brother/Sister?

bmnoble · May 2019

Innocents? You counting all those poor guards you killed, they had families, they were only doing their job, you monsters

(notices I left the Executioner title displayed, quietly turns it off)

BretonMage · May 2019

You can’t, really. You have to ingeniously headcanon your way around it.

I just avoid the DB questline. Haven’t done a DB quest since 2012.

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DB on a not completely evil character?

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