Making Healers Relevant in Dungeons Again

Mintaka5 · May 2019

My biggest gripe here is that any build that isn't built for healing should not have health sustain capabilities at all. You know why it's so hard to queue as DPS for group content, because healers are not needed, so who the *** wants to watch a bunch of over confident DDs clean up a dungeon not needing any support? No one! Maybe, just maybe, pugging wouldn't be a such a miserable *** show if people actually played their roles, instead of trying to be everything in the game. It's not impressive at all.

ZOS_Ragnar · May 2019

We have removed some comments from this thread that were not constructive and disrupted the discussion. Please ensure your posts abide by the forum rules.

idk · May 2019

Mintaka5 wrote: »

My biggest gripe here is that any build that isn't built for healing should not have health sustain capabilities at all. You know why it's so hard to queue as DPS for group content, because healers are not needed, so who the *** wants to watch a bunch of over confident DDs clean up a dungeon not needing any support? No one! Maybe, just maybe, pugging wouldn't be a such a miserable *** show if people actually played their roles, instead of trying to be everything in the game. It's not impressive at all.

The game is designed and intended to blurred the lines of the trinity based on how the devs promoted this game. They specifically intended that someone could have a hybrid role build if that is what they want. In the video linked below you can see in the beginning the dev playing the templar has a heal on their bar and the dev sorc has some dps on their bar. They are low level and only have one bar so they are limited, Yes, the healer was a bad healer but I am not claiming they actually know how to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fOi7xdcpdU

Those "overconfident" dps, as you call them, are not exactly overconfident. They are just plain skilled enough to not get entangled in mechanics and are good at avoiding damage that can be avoided. If they were overconfident then they would be taking on more than they could handle and wipe often.

Further, if you read Code's post on page 3 explains in a very clear manner why players self defense, which they are referring to heals as well should be strong. They make an excellent point.

p00tx · May 2019

first_kodiak wrote: »

To reiterate something others have already said, if you think healers are irrelevant go pug some vet dungeons as a healer or proper tank (not a dps tank hybrid) and come back to the discussion. Rebalancing dungeons so top-tier groups require a healer would make them completely inaccessible to pugs. Many of the vet dlc dungeons are already difficult to complete with pugs.

Frankly, a lot of you come off a super-elitist players with no understanding of the rest of the player-base. You can't balance a game around the top 1% of the players. That is what vet trials are for. Vet dungeons are designed to be much more accessible.

The top 1% don't want to be forced to take a healer into a dungeon. I main a healer, and even I don't want to run a dungeon with one. It's way more challenging to run 3 DD, but that's why I like it. Taking a healer in while trying to run a speed achievement, or a DPS-checking hm feels slow and plodding and sometimes painful. I worked hard to bring my dps up to the numbers needed to burn the content, and I don't want to be punished for doing so. Outside of the top tier of players, most groups readily bring healers, no questions asked. These players [healers] can't force their way into the top dungeon groups just by implementing more punishing mechanics. We'll just find another way around it and they'll be back to square one. I have no interest in making these dungeons harder for the majority of players, and I'm actually strongly in favor of implementing a story mode for our RP community who only wants to experience the quest aspect of the instance.

We get up to 15 character slots folks. If you stick to only one role, and refuse to learn others, you'll be locked out of certain content. End of story. I rolled a Magplar DD and learned how to run a proper rotation, and have been able to clear most of the really difficult (almost all 4 person hard modes) content in the game on it, even though my preferred role is healer. I adjusted and put in some work. I suggest the rest of you do the same.

mairwen85 · May 2019

idk wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

code65536 wrote: »

So here's the crux of the matter: Healers are expendable if you have good players doing easy content. Good players who have the DPS to not get mired in mechanics. Players who have the awareness to avoid damage and to react to the damage that they do take. Not everyone can do this. Not everyone has the reflexes, the awareness, the judgement, etc. And for those players, you already do need a healer even for base game content.

I've been PUGing a lot of dungeons recently, and the amount of damage that mediocre players take is remarkable. Content that I could easily get through without any healer support, other players will just die if the healer isn't around.

While the entirety of Codes post says it all. This here really spells out the correct perspective.

Think about how things would be if the dungeons skilled players can clear easily with 3 DPS and a tank were altered so those groups required a dedicated healer as OP is seeking.

That would mean a large number of players that can get through it with the trinity would no longer be able to clear it. Instead of threads complaining about DLC dungeon difficulty we would have threads complaining about all dungeons being to difficult.

OP -- me -- never advocated absolute requirement for healer. I simply said that by swapping one shots for dots, healers become more attractive in some ways with the side effect that dungeons also become more accessible for lower skilled players. You're misrepresenting the entirety of my involvement in this thread. I suggest you go over my posts again.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6026201/#Comment_6026201

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6026703/#Comment_6026703

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6037936/#Comment_6037936

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6032784/#Comment_6032784

Imminent death vs instant death does not make the content harder for anyone.

mairwen85 wrote: »

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that de-buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

I think you are splitting hairs here. The title makes your intentions for this thread very clear. That coupled with your suggestion is a clear message you want the challenge of unavoidable damage increased so that a healer is needed. Yes, those DoTs have to be unavoidable to make a difference.

And in the end, adjustments are not needed because many groups, as Code pointed out, do need healers with the current design. Clearly this is not because of the one shot mechanics you are complaining about but that most players are not the top players Code refers to.

For some reason my response was removed, so I'll say again what I've said before instead. What you are saying is my intention, is not my intention. Despite repeated restatement and clarifications, my position from first post to now has not changed. If you want to inject your own interpretations into my words, that's your choice, but do not misrepresent that as my opinion. I'll thank you for that in advance.

Back to the discussion, and for the final time, to mitigate any misconception. No group composition should be forced, no major impact to the status quo should be introduced, no wildly disparate mechanics introduced, and the content as is should not be altered such that it is any more difficult than currently. Softening one shots, those not directly driving boss mechanics, to implement instead a heavy dot on target would change instant death to imminent death scenarios, allowing for a window in which a healer can be useful to group dynamic in a way they currently may not be. This is one suggestion by which content could be more inclusive, and as side effect more accessible to lesser skilled players without taking away from the status quo.

This may not be the best suggestion, but it is in my opinion a workable one and posited to address complaints I read on a regular basis on the forum. As my opening post explained.

Jeremy · May 2019

karekiz wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Good point. If healers could actually heal people who were hit by a laser or touched by a ghost or weren't standing in the right spot it would go a long way to making them more relevant because it would give the group more breathing room to make mistakes.

That isn't quite true

The fast you kill the boss the fewer the ghosts.
The faster the DPS means less adds during dwarven boss.

It also changes the dynamic of the encounter. If ghosts did say 90% of your HP total. They would essentially become a non threat. You can easily just stack and whack.

Generally the only time when healers become super important is when radiant damage becomes so bothersome that DPS with off heals <Flappy/BoL/Vigour> are using it too much to offset dmg boost from a healer.

Generally the biggest way to force healers in 4 man is to remove DPS/Tank abilities to heal/shield themselves.

What isn't "quite true"? The adds on the Engine Guardian boss do not one shot you and stacking damage to reduce the amount of adds on that fight would not erase the benefit of a healer - who is useful to heal players who are hit by the fire bombs and to help the group survive through the poison mist (or what ever that is).

You left out the next sentence of that post where I said - and I quote: Which is basically why so many groups prefer more offensive strategies anyway - because it speeds up the fight and therefore shortens the window for players to make mistakes in. So healers need that same capacity. Healers already have the capacity to make up for mistakes in that fight - because the fire bombs and poison mist don't instantly kill you.

That was basically the point of my post. That using a more offensive strategy is only more beneficial when dealing with one-shot mechanics because it means fewer mechanics to deal with where as utilizing a strategy that focuses more on healing is rather pointless because the mechanics instantly kill you anyway. That's why so many people on this game now consider tanks and healers mere "support roles" and imagine their roles as being primarily to increase the offense of others. You could not have any better evidence than that to make my point.

I also disagree with you that a mechanic that takes away 90% of your health is "non-threatening". Just because something doesn't instantly kill you that doesn't mean it's not a threat. It simply means it's a threat that a healer can counter - which is necessary if you are going to make healers vital. They need to be able to counter threats. If they can't - and all of the main dangers of a fight simply instantly kill you anyway - then the role of a healer is significantly diminished.

Reducing the ability of other roles to heal themselves would help alleviate this issue too. But I doubt the developers will entertain that path since it is contrary to their vision and the design of the game itself. So eliminating their reliance on instant death mechanics seems like an easier route to me. That way damage dealers can spend their resources toward doing damage while healers spend their resources healing. This over-reliance on instant death mechanics is something new and wasn't part of the original game. So we already know this game functions just fine without them and requires no radical transformation of the game play.