Making Healers Relevant in Dungeons Again

mairwen85 · May 2019

ccfeeling wrote: »

When the content require more healing , more sustain , players will pick a real healer .
Such as VBRP , all vet trials .

Great! So, end-game healers have to stick with crappy lowbies in normals or base game vet, or exclusively do trials (7 + 1 in Elsweyr) and 1 (yes 1) group arena? /s

This argument has been banded around a few times in this thread -- it's not a proposed solution or suggestion, but a restatement of obvious fact. One which actually proves the need ro review rather than negates it.

This is yet another factor for why there are so few healers vs dps in this game. There isn't enough, or the content doesn't consider them.

p00tx · May 2019

peacenote wrote: »

First, something I think that hasn't yet been mentioned.... DUAL SPECS. It's time. It would also be helpful for tanks. Then, allow people to queue as multiple roles again.

I often hear things like "You're doing VDSA? OK, only if you're doing 3 DPS." But... I want to heal it! My main is a healer; I want the achievement ON MY MAIN. (And no, account-wide achievements are not the answer but don't let me de-rail the thread.)

I don't think healers are as irrelevant as some people think but there is no question that they are not always welcome. But for some content they are very much needed and will continue to be. The best solution would be to give us dual specs or even triple specs so healers can easily switch between heals, DPS, and hybrid depending on group make-up and needs. This would allow us to be flexible and useful in all situations, and allow devs to focus on creating new, challenging content instead of spending time retro-fitting and tweaking old content. I think this would also align nicely with our role, especially in ESO, which has always been to be flexible and step in to fill the gaps. Very early on ESO healers augmented with DPS and it was so much fun, but we've lost that a bit as the power creep causes our DPS to be less and less relevant when fully specced as a healer.

Next, to acknowledge a couple of particularly relevant comments, imo..

1) DPS Discrepancy

daemonios wrote: »

Another issue is that good DDs do 10-20x the damage of bad DDs. The interval is way too broad and makes it that much harder to design fights where you can't skip mechanics by burning, but that don't exclude a large part or even the majority of the player base. ZOS screwed the pooch where it comes to either teaching new/casual players how to do decent DPS or restricting how much more DPS a good player is able to do. Soft caps did this to some extent at the very start, but classes were seriously unbalanced back then.

This is extremely true, very difficult to solve, and is another argument for dual specs.

It is so awful as a decent healer to be in a group with a skilled tank and two DPS who just can't pull the damage needed to pass the DPS checks. Often they are nice, friendly players who even are decent at mechanics so you feel extra-bad giving up or dropping group. Usually you can get through with ONE very strong DPS, but it is so painful with two mediocre or two struggling DPS.

I see this as often as I see the DPS-that-can-bypass-all-mechanics type.

Let us healers have the flexibility to incorporate more damage when needed. Maybe the answer isn't to engineer a way so you can't ever skip mechanics, but instead empower the healers to help fill gaps better. Groups that want to burn? Let them burn and let them take a healer who can add damage when needed. Groups that don't have enough DPS? Let them follow mechanics and have a healer that can significantly add to DPS when there's a required burn and the DPS are still learning.

That kind of aligns with play the way you want, right?

2) Multi-directional Heals

Jeremy wrote: »

Since so many of the fights on this game require or encourage you to run all over the place chasing adds or dealing with mechanics is often easier for a DPS to heal themselves when they get into trouble than relying on a healer to do it - who has limited range and directional constraints and is usually staying near the tank where as a DPS can heal themselves instantly as soon as they are in danger where ever they are on the battlefield (something a healer cannot do). So that is part of the problem as well.

They need to make it to where healers can effectively replace the DD's self heal. Because as they are designed now - a healer is only really useful to a damage dealer during times of intense area damage. Otherwise, the damage dealer is probably better off just healing themselves.

Gee, if only we had an expensive, burst heal that could hit in all directions instead of just a cone....!

Yea, I know, I keep revisiting the BoL nerfs. But I'd still rather see a PvP-specific solution and a PvE multi-directional heal, plus options for other classes. Especially considering point #1, just imagine the flexibility we could have if DPS could drop their self-heals to add a damage ability to squeeze out a bit more DPS because healers could participate in mechanics and still sometimes save the day without positioning. Not all the time, not a cheap heal that takes all the skill out of it, but something in our arsenal to make us more relevant in mobile fights.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Healing+Ritual

Jeremy · May 2019

Tasear wrote: »

There's many ways to reslove it.

I think best way us coming to understanding that some people will 3 dps or even 4 but what we need is balance.

To appoarch this use common mentioned issue one shots as something for healers. Have to be able to mirgrate some mistakes. Then appoarch game design with allowing human error and healers saving people from it. Yeah actually design dungeons for healer engagement.

Cheap way just make a third tier in gameplay dungeons and trials.

Good point. If healers could actually heal people who were hit by a laser or touched by a ghost or weren't standing in the right spot it would go a long way to making them more relevant because it would give the group more breathing room to make mistakes. Which is basically why so many groups prefer more offensive strategies anyway - because it speeds up the fight and therefore shortens the window for players to make mistakes in. So healers need that same capacity

This game used to be that way. The Engine Guardian in Dark Shade 2 for example: the fire bombs hurt but they didn't instant kill you - so a good healer could save players who got hit by it. But if you just instantly die every time you make a mistake it really takes a lot away from the healing class and is going to encourage players to favor offensive strategies as a way to deal with the mechanics instead.

kathandira · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Any other thoughts?

Reduce healing done via Spell Damage. Increase the value of 2, 3, and 4pc bonuses with Healing Done on gear. Add a function that increases healing done amount of each healing spell you have on your action bar. For example, 5% Healing Done for each Healing spell you have slotted

This way, Damage Dealers would not receive the same amount of Healing Power from Spell Damage alone. And as well, the more damage dealing abilities you have on your bar, the less your Healing Power.

Jeremy · May 2019

kathandira wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Any other thoughts?

Reduce healing done via Spell Damage. Increase the value of 2, 3, and 4pc bonuses with Healing Done on gear. Add a function that increases healing done amount of each healing spell you have on your action bar. For example, 5% Healing Done for each Healing spell you have slotted

This way, Damage Dealers would not receive the same amount of Healing Power from Spell Damage alone. And as well, the more damage dealing abilities you have on your bar, the less your Healing Power.

To be honest, they should just separate spell power and healing all together. That way a player would have to sacrifice offense to become good at healing. But I doubt they'll ever do this because this game is built from a DPS-oriented and PvP perspective - so they want damage dealers to be adept at healing themselves. This entire game is shamelessly bias in that direction.

kathandira · May 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Any other thoughts?

Reduce healing done via Spell Damage. Increase the value of 2, 3, and 4pc bonuses with Healing Done on gear. Add a function that increases healing done amount of each healing spell you have on your action bar. For example, 5% Healing Done for each Healing spell you have slotted

This way, Damage Dealers would not receive the same amount of Healing Power from Spell Damage alone. And as well, the more damage dealing abilities you have on your bar, the less your Healing Power.

To be honest, they should just separate spell power and healing all together. That way a player would have to sacrifice offense to become good at healing. But I doubt they'll ever do this because this game is built from a DPS-oriented and PvP perspective - so they want damage dealers to be adept at healing themselves.

Totally. That is why I suggest they reduce the amount of healing you get from Spell Power. That way DPS can still have some healing power, and it can be amplified via Battle Spirit in PvP. Would also encourage Healers to use gear that provides +X Healing Done, as it is currently not very desired.

Jeremy · May 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Any other thoughts?

Reduce healing done via Spell Damage. Increase the value of 2, 3, and 4pc bonuses with Healing Done on gear. Add a function that increases healing done amount of each healing spell you have on your action bar. For example, 5% Healing Done for each Healing spell you have slotted

This way, Damage Dealers would not receive the same amount of Healing Power from Spell Damage alone. And as well, the more damage dealing abilities you have on your bar, the less your Healing Power.

To be honest, they should just separate spell power and healing all together. That way a player would have to sacrifice offense to become good at healing. But I doubt they'll ever do this because this game is built from a DPS-oriented and PvP perspective - so they want damage dealers to be adept at healing themselves.

Totally. That is why I suggest they reduce the amount of healing you get from Spell Power. That way DPS can still have some healing power, and it can be amplified via Battle Spirit in PvP. Would also encourage Healers to use gear that provides +X Healing Done, as it is currently not very desired.

It's an interesting idea you have, to rely on battle spirit to make up the difference in PvP. But as I added in my last post - this game just seems shamelessly bias in favor of dps-oriented builds so I doubt it ever happens. I believe they are more likely to just scrap the healing role all together and replace it with a third DPS slot before attempting to strengthen the healer's role. But it's a good idea nonetheless and I hope they consider it.

kathandira · May 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Any other thoughts?

Reduce healing done via Spell Damage. Increase the value of 2, 3, and 4pc bonuses with Healing Done on gear. Add a function that increases healing done amount of each healing spell you have on your action bar. For example, 5% Healing Done for each Healing spell you have slotted

This way, Damage Dealers would not receive the same amount of Healing Power from Spell Damage alone. And as well, the more damage dealing abilities you have on your bar, the less your Healing Power.

To be honest, they should just separate spell power and healing all together. That way a player would have to sacrifice offense to become good at healing. But I doubt they'll ever do this because this game is built from a DPS-oriented and PvP perspective - so they want damage dealers to be adept at healing themselves.

Totally. That is why I suggest they reduce the amount of healing you get from Spell Power. That way DPS can still have some healing power, and it can be amplified via Battle Spirit in PvP. Would also encourage Healers to use gear that provides +X Healing Done, as it is currently not very desired.

It's an interesting idea you have, to rely on battle spirit to make up the difference in PvP. But as I added in my last post - this game just seems shamelessly bias in favor of dps-oriented builds so I doubt it ever happens. I believe they are more likely to just scrap the healing role all together and replace it with a third DPS slot before attempting to strengthen the healer's role. But it's a good idea nonetheless and I hope they consider it.

Thanks. I would hope they don't scrap Healers, lol. It is my favorite role in MMOs. But I see where you are going with it. In MMOs, you either embrace the trinity, or you don't have it at all. Somehow ZoS wants to be a rebel and have these roles, but yet tell us that you can "play your own way" which is counter to encouraging the trinity. They need to get off the fence, and pick a side already.

idk · May 2019

.

code65536 wrote: »

So here's the crux of the matter: Healers are expendable if you have good players doing easy content. Good players who have the DPS to not get mired in mechanics. Players who have the awareness to avoid damage and to react to the damage that they do take. Not everyone can do this. Not everyone has the reflexes, the awareness, the judgement, etc. And for those players, you already do need a healer even for base game content.

I've been PUGing a lot of dungeons recently, and the amount of damage that mediocre players take is remarkable. Content that I could easily get through without any healer support, other players will just die if the healer isn't around.

While the entirety of Codes post says it all. This here really spells out the correct perspective.

Think about how things would be if the dungeons skilled players can clear easily with 3 DPS and a tank were altered so those groups required a dedicated healer as OP is seeking.

That would mean a large number of players that can get through it with the trinity would no longer be able to clear it. Instead of threads complaining about DLC dungeon difficulty we would have threads complaining about all dungeons being to difficult.

mairwen85 · May 2019

idk wrote: »

.

code65536 wrote: »

So here's the crux of the matter: Healers are expendable if you have good players doing easy content. Good players who have the DPS to not get mired in mechanics. Players who have the awareness to avoid damage and to react to the damage that they do take. Not everyone can do this. Not everyone has the reflexes, the awareness, the judgement, etc. And for those players, you already do need a healer even for base game content.

I've been PUGing a lot of dungeons recently, and the amount of damage that mediocre players take is remarkable. Content that I could easily get through without any healer support, other players will just die if the healer isn't around.

While the entirety of Codes post says it all. This here really spells out the correct perspective.

Think about how things would be if the dungeons skilled players can clear easily with 3 DPS and a tank were altered so those groups required a dedicated healer as OP is seeking.

That would mean a large number of players that can get through it with the trinity would no longer be able to clear it. Instead of threads complaining about DLC dungeon difficulty we would have threads complaining about all dungeons being to difficult.

OP -- me -- never advocated absolute requirement for healer. I simply said that by swapping one shots for dots, healers become more attractive in some ways with the side effect that dungeons also become more accessible for lower skilled players. You're misrepresenting the entirety of my involvement in this thread. I suggest you go over my posts again.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6026201/#Comment_6026201

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6026703/#Comment_6026703

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6037936/#Comment_6037936

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6032784/#Comment_6032784

Imminent death vs instant death does not make the content harder for anyone.

mairwen85 wrote: »

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that de-buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

karekiz · May 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Good point. If healers could actually heal people who were hit by a laser or touched by a ghost or weren't standing in the right spot it would go a long way to making them more relevant because it would give the group more breathing room to make mistakes.

That isn't quite true

The fast you kill the boss the fewer the ghosts.
The faster the DPS means less adds during dwarven boss.

It also changes the dynamic of the encounter. If ghosts did say 90% of your HP total. They would essentially become a non threat. You can easily just stack and whack.

Generally the only time when healers become super important is when radiant damage becomes so bothersome that DPS with off heals <Flappy/BoL/Vigour> are using it too much to offset dmg boost from a healer.

Generally the biggest way to force healers in 4 man is to remove DPS/Tank abilities to heal/shield themselves.

snarkomatic · May 2019

karekiz wrote: »

Generally the only time when healers become super important is when radiant damage becomes so bothersome that DPS with off heals <Flappy/BoL/Vigour> are using it too much to offset dmg boost from a healer.

[emphasis mine]

I think no nerfs should happen.

I think instead, healers should get some new, improved buffs. Let's turn resto staff abilities into something that 1) cannot be gained through any other means; and 2) provide such a big buff to damage that it literally outplays having a third DD with self-heals.

Nerf those buffs through Battle Spirit to keep PvP reasonable, and then give all the meta PvEers a really persuasive percentage of damage through something only a true healer can provide. Give these buffs really high mag costs, or damage debuffs, or cast times, or whatever is necessary to stop a DD from back-barring a resto in PvE.

I would also support changes to how spell damage works in PvE, but I see that as being such a huge point of contention amongst the general player base that it will probably never be feasible in reality.

Morgul667 · May 2019

Last time someone asked for healers to feel relevant they nerfed shields

first_kodiak · May 2019

To reiterate something others have already said, if you think healers are irrelevant go pug some vet dungeons as a healer or proper tank (not a dps tank hybrid) and come back to the discussion. Rebalancing dungeons so top-tier groups require a healer would make them completely inaccessible to pugs. Many of the vet dlc dungeons are already difficult to complete with pugs.

Frankly, a lot of you come off a super-elitist players with no understanding of the rest of the player-base. You can't balance a game around the top 1% of the players. That is what vet trials are for. Vet dungeons are designed to be much more accessible.

Facefister · May 2019

Just stay in your trials, don't ruin the 4 man content for us who run 1T 3DD. Did the vFV triple av without a healer and it was a thrill.

mairwen85 · May 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

Last time someone asked for healers to feel relevant they nerfed shields

Exactly. The thing is, this discussion will emerge from time to time, and as a result after enough noise, things like you refer to happen. What's the harm in providing well-rounded, grounded and sensible player feedback that seeks to provide a solution with minimal impact on the status quo?

What I'm instead seeing is individuals responding without reviewing or considering what is suggested, and immediately jumping to knee-jerk, defensive, or dismissive stance, either misrepresenting or shifting the discussion via pejoratives.

first_kodiak wrote: »

To reiterate something others have already said, if you think healers are irrelevant go pug some vet dungeons as a healer or proper tank (not a dps tank hybrid) and come back to the discussion. Rebalancing dungeons so top-tier groups require a healer would make them completely inaccessible to pugs. Many of the vet dlc dungeons are already difficult to complete with pugs.

Frankly, a lot of you come off a super-elitist players with no understanding of the rest of the player-base. You can't balance a game around the top 1% of the players. That is what vet trials are for. Vet dungeons are designed to be much more accessible.

Please explain how my proposal influences anything in your post.

How does dots rather than one shots affect the pugs you mention, for example. Let's start with that. Then explain how the wider playerbase is effected by no change to self heals, or damage mitigation - - and how optional group composition is unaffected.

@Facefister define 'ruin'. What is ruined in your achievement by the same rationale?

This would help me understand the counter position. Thanks.

Sidebar

Off the back of some other posts, I'm finding it hard to reconcile being referred to as elitist with my proposal. If someone could explain that to me, I'd appreciate it.

Runkorko · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to provide community feedback and ideas for how dungeons (present and future) can be updated or designed to make healers more relevant to the content (as the title suggests). Seeing as devs are regularly revisiting dungeons and weakening bosses, reducing adds, etc (not addressing the core issue of dungeon difficulty in my view, but it is what it is), I don't see why retro fits can't be introduced.

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that de-buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

Any other thoughts?

Do you play dlc dungeons?
Selfheals? A decent dps build HARDLY have any healing skills on bars/ even if they have they are HARDLY used in rotation.
There are few/none even dlc dungeons you can run without healer. Unless ppl are godly players:P
Healer is stil a MUST in most of the grp content.

mairwen85 · May 2019

[snip]

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Do you play dlc dungeons?
Selfheals? A decent dps build HARDLY have any healing skills on bars/ even if they have they are HARDLY used in rotation.
There are few/none even dlc dungeons you can run without healer. Unless ppl are godly players:P
Healer is stil a MUST in most of the grp content.

Indeed, a dps is more likely to use a self-heal reactively/strategically (who said otherwise?).

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Selfheals? A decent dps build HARDLY have any healing skills on bars/ even if they have they are HARDLY used in rotation.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

Here's the thing, I do play dlc dungeons -- I main a magplar dps; addons like alpha gear and CP profile make it easy to dual spec. I always PUG as healer, and I switch between full dps, dps with backbar hots, and healer with backbar dps depending on the group ability, and depending on the requirement of the group (when organised). Appealing to the extreme, like the groups you mention, low dps, low situational awareness, under geared, under skilled etc. I'll pure dps, because no amount of healing is going to save that group (and will just prolong the agony), but sufficient dps will carry. Dps is king in this game, and unless sustained damage output is gimped by forced slow down mechanics (e.g. boss hides and we have to go through the rigmarole of avoiding various damage sources and traps without the ability to heal for fear of being snagged ), or gimmicky mini-games , damage trumps in every situation.

However, all that being said -- what exactly are you arguing against, and by what logic?
"One shots shouldn't be revised or DoTs considered/preferred as an alternative for future content because healers are needed for bad groups where damage is low."?

[removed quoted content]

Sinolai · May 2019

A good start would be stop nerfing the dungeons. Planar Heatstroke was capped -> tank can solo tank planar. Adds spawn rate was drasticslly lowered -> nobody else but tank takes damage. Bloodroot minotaur lost atronaches that were the only thing hitting everyone besides boss cleave. Shalk balls are easily avoided( though trying to keep a player alive once hit is a good healer test

)Falkreath minotaur add spawn rate was reduced. March of Sacrifices were bear adds were nerfed and Scarab mechanic that was the only thing causing tank to need healer in *** lair got nerfed.

Sinolai · May 2019

p00tx wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

First, something I think that hasn't yet been mentioned.... DUAL SPECS. It's time. It would also be helpful for tanks. Then, allow people to queue as multiple roles again.

I often hear things like "You're doing VDSA? OK, only if you're doing 3 DPS." But... I want to heal it! My main is a healer; I want the achievement ON MY MAIN. (And no, account-wide achievements are not the answer but don't let me de-rail the thread.)

I don't think healers are as irrelevant as some people think but there is no question that they are not always welcome. But for some content they are very much needed and will continue to be. The best solution would be to give us dual specs or even triple specs so healers can easily switch between heals, DPS, and hybrid depending on group make-up and needs. This would allow us to be flexible and useful in all situations, and allow devs to focus on creating new, challenging content instead of spending time retro-fitting and tweaking old content. I think this would also align nicely with our role, especially in ESO, which has always been to be flexible and step in to fill the gaps. Very early on ESO healers augmented with DPS and it was so much fun, but we've lost that a bit as the power creep causes our DPS to be less and less relevant when fully specced as a healer.

Next, to acknowledge a couple of particularly relevant comments, imo..

1) DPS Discrepancy

daemonios wrote: »

Another issue is that good DDs do 10-20x the damage of bad DDs. The interval is way too broad and makes it that much harder to design fights where you can't skip mechanics by burning, but that don't exclude a large part or even the majority of the player base. ZOS screwed the pooch where it comes to either teaching new/casual players how to do decent DPS or restricting how much more DPS a good player is able to do. Soft caps did this to some extent at the very start, but classes were seriously unbalanced back then.

This is extremely true, very difficult to solve, and is another argument for dual specs.

It is so awful as a decent healer to be in a group with a skilled tank and two DPS who just can't pull the damage needed to pass the DPS checks. Often they are nice, friendly players who even are decent at mechanics so you feel extra-bad giving up or dropping group. Usually you can get through with ONE very strong DPS, but it is so painful with two mediocre or two struggling DPS.

I see this as often as I see the DPS-that-can-bypass-all-mechanics type.

Let us healers have the flexibility to incorporate more damage when needed. Maybe the answer isn't to engineer a way so you can't ever skip mechanics, but instead empower the healers to help fill gaps better. Groups that want to burn? Let them burn and let them take a healer who can add damage when needed. Groups that don't have enough DPS? Let them follow mechanics and have a healer that can significantly add to DPS when there's a required burn and the DPS are still learning.

That kind of aligns with play the way you want, right?

2) Multi-directional Heals

Jeremy wrote: »

Since so many of the fights on this game require or encourage you to run all over the place chasing adds or dealing with mechanics is often easier for a DPS to heal themselves when they get into trouble than relying on a healer to do it - who has limited range and directional constraints and is usually staying near the tank where as a DPS can heal themselves instantly as soon as they are in danger where ever they are on the battlefield (something a healer cannot do). So that is part of the problem as well.

They need to make it to where healers can effectively replace the DD's self heal. Because as they are designed now - a healer is only really useful to a damage dealer during times of intense area damage. Otherwise, the damage dealer is probably better off just healing themselves.

Gee, if only we had an expensive, burst heal that could hit in all directions instead of just a cone....!

Yea, I know, I keep revisiting the BoL nerfs. But I'd still rather see a PvP-specific solution and a PvE multi-directional heal, plus options for other classes. Especially considering point #1, just imagine the flexibility we could have if DPS could drop their self-heals to add a damage ability to squeeze out a bit more DPS because healers could participate in mechanics and still sometimes save the day without positioning. Not all the time, not a cheap heal that takes all the skill out of it, but something in our arsenal to make us more relevant in mobile fights.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Healing+Ritual

A year ago eso actually allowed you to queue in every role if you wanted. I often did that since I actually had a spec for every role. Unfortunately not everyone did, resulting into painful runs with fake tanks and healers casting 1 bol/vigor every 10 sec between their damage abilities.

frozzzen101 · May 2019

As a tank, when I'm making zon pug for some DLC HMs, I usually ask for 3 dds because it's a good scrub filter. It says, as a tank I can selfsustain and deal with dungeon just fine. As a requirement, it also asks for dds to be able to do the same and for people who have no idea what they are doing, idea of going without a healer sounds scary. People that know their stuff are more likely to respond.
It's not that I'd actively go out of my way to refuse a healer, but it makes for much better experiences overall. And with all this talk to amp healers support, really how relevant is that? Your average healer is... healer, not support.

Major Courage? Sometimes.
Combat Prayer? Abysmal uptimes in pugs, not necessarily a healers fault.
Orbs and Drain? Rare enough that I prefer to selfdrain all the time in pugs as a tank.
Warhorn/Barrier? Rarely.
Aether? Almost never.
Spider Silk? Never.
Symphony of Blades? Never.
Guard? Never.

So, healers have enough support options available to them, they just don't use them or they use Worm with 2 stam dds groups, go figure. And that's skills/sets available to every class, let alone class specific skills. Perhaps better way of making healers useful in eyes of that niche you are aiming to promote them with - 4 man dlc dungeon HM groups is to educate healers on how much they can assist group instead of being BoL/Mutagen spammers.

But I'll repeat myself. New dungeons should really be 6 man content. Then all support you'd get from competent healer would be doubled with it affecting 4 dds instead of just 2 and your efficiency would double immediately making 5 dd groups much less desirable. And now is a good time to campaign for it as all 3 of our daily pledge givers have 12 dungeons exactly. It's good time to make a paradigm shift and create 4th pledge giver for 6 man content where healers would be actually relevant and queues faster. Perhaps you could put your efforts in trying to make dungeon team focus on 6 man content instead of trying to invent a wheel and change already existing dungeons oe heavens forbid we undergo another sweeping changes to selfhealing like shield nerfs because devs can't read between the lines.

Facefister · May 2019

@mairwen85

Because the healing role is a dead weight in every 4-man dungeon when every DD and Tank knows what to do. We do want to play how we want, and the game allows us to do that. Enforcing a healer just because some springs spamming healers feel unneeded will ruin that for us. The healing role is a trial role, and a crutch role in dungeons where the people can't self-sustain.

mairwen85 · May 2019

Facefister wrote: »

@mairwen85
Because the healing role is a dead weight in every 4-man dungeon when every DD and Tank knows what to do. We do want to play how we want, and the game allows us to do that. Enforcing a healer just because some springs spamming healers feel unneeded will ruin that for us. The healing role is a trial role, and a crutch role in dungeons where the people can't self-sustain.

Thanks for the clarification. That helps me understand your view on healers in general -- and I also agree to a certain degree with your summation (as has been stated across a few posts in this thread and others). However, with regards to my opening post and the non-enforcement of healers by requirement as described in it, I fail to see how my suggestion impacts your view or ability to play as you describe; that I do disagree on.

Again, thanks for taking the time to step back in and clarify your responses for me. Appreciated.

SoLooney · May 2019

daemonios wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

Just be glad they're relevant in trials

"We have made you partly irrelevant. Pray we don't make you any more irrelevant."

Gotta love this attitude. Incidentally, do you play a healer? I'm going to guess the answer is no.

I have nothing against 3dd groups, but in the interest of keeping the game appealling to all classes/roles and the community as a whole happier, if healers are in a tough spot I'm siding with them. Rejoicing at others' problems doesn't make much sense to me.

Wow someone is triggered that their one trick in the game is frowned upon in non trial settings. Either adapt or pick up another way to play the game. Either way, if you don't like how the game is going, there is the exit, no one will miss you

"I hate the attitude that healers think they're entitled and needed to be in 4 man content"

Geez, gotta love the irrelevant players who cant adapt

Darkenarlol · May 2019

really good heal who have trial set up, hard 4 ppl content setup

and steamroll easy 4 ppl setup with ~30k dps never gonna feel *unneeded*

as for those mutagen and springs spammers who stands aside watching

when party don't need immediate heal - they are in the same unwanted and

unneeded trash scrub club where all crappy DPSless DDs are

gepe87 · May 2019

Maybe increase dot damage from mobs would make a healer more relevant:
More healing over time versus damage over time.

angelncelestine · May 2019

Well I am pretty sure no matter what they throw at you in a dungeon there will always be groups that will run 3 DD's and a tank. If that's the way they like to play so be it. I really like some of these ideas.

gepe87 wrote: »

Maybe increase dot damage from mobs would make a healer more relevant:
More healing over time versus damage over time.

These are a couple good ones. Also someone had mentioned the last boss in ROM. That is a good example of a group taking damage, while having to dps. More of this might make healers more needed. VBRP has some good mechanics that could be implemented into dungeons. Definitely there needs to be less one shots. I am so sick of hearing" who needs a healer when everything one shots?" lol What it really comes down to though is your group. Many groups still love to have a healer with them. Heck, I have even seen people running normal dungeons that insist on having a healer. I run with a group personally that appreciates my healer when I run her. Buffs and orbs for days. Ups there damage, and I do a bit of damage to. We all win. In non DLC dungeons though I usually bring a DD. Those are a snooze for me to heal. Some may not think so though, and that's the beauty of this game you can play the way you want to. My advice for healers is to find a group of people that enjoy playing with a healer. There are many that do. :-)

Trinity_Is_My_Name · May 2019

Every time I see a thread like this I wonder what dungeons you are running where everyone either is "one shotted" or the "Healers are irrelevant"?

I don't know about you but I run all Vet DLC content and we certainly need our Healer. As for one shots no idea what you guys are talking about. Most groups I run with we have at least 17.2K health with most of us just over 18K and we have not experienced any "one shots". We've run every DLC dungeon in Vet.

So are you guys running around with 3 Glass Cannon builds at 14K health and a Tank?

Adjust your builds so they can take a few hits instead of dealing out insane DPS. Healers ARE relevant.

angelncelestine · May 2019

@Trinity_Is_My_Name MHK is a good example. One shots galore. Do I personally feel like that takes away from a need of a healer in there? No, but others do.

idk · May 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

code65536 wrote: »

So here's the crux of the matter: Healers are expendable if you have good players doing easy content. Good players who have the DPS to not get mired in mechanics. Players who have the awareness to avoid damage and to react to the damage that they do take. Not everyone can do this. Not everyone has the reflexes, the awareness, the judgement, etc. And for those players, you already do need a healer even for base game content.

I've been PUGing a lot of dungeons recently, and the amount of damage that mediocre players take is remarkable. Content that I could easily get through without any healer support, other players will just die if the healer isn't around.

While the entirety of Codes post says it all. This here really spells out the correct perspective.

Think about how things would be if the dungeons skilled players can clear easily with 3 DPS and a tank were altered so those groups required a dedicated healer as OP is seeking.

That would mean a large number of players that can get through it with the trinity would no longer be able to clear it. Instead of threads complaining about DLC dungeon difficulty we would have threads complaining about all dungeons being to difficult.

OP -- me -- never advocated absolute requirement for healer. I simply said that by swapping one shots for dots, healers become more attractive in some ways with the side effect that dungeons also become more accessible for lower skilled players. You're misrepresenting the entirety of my involvement in this thread. I suggest you go over my posts again.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6026201/#Comment_6026201

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6026703/#Comment_6026703

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6037936/#Comment_6037936

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6032784/#Comment_6032784

Imminent death vs instant death does not make the content harder for anyone.

mairwen85 wrote: »

The main gripe you often hear is centred around 'One-shots'. I'm not arguing for the total removal of all One-shot mechanics; they add difficulty, they can enforce mechanics, and make for reactive strategy; but the sheer volume and number of sources are a major issue in current dungeon design -- and seeing as they often exceed the amount heal-able, more dps is preferred in many cases in order to progress faster. A rethink would be to instead of apply x damage, apply a 'wounding' debuff on target that does x/y over time (e.g. instead of single hit of 45K, 12Kps over 4 seconds). This makes a healer's role more necessary as that de-buff becomes purge-able(?), and the damage recoverable over time, despite the actual effect still doing decent enough damage to retain difficulty.

Self heals are in a good place in terms of cost vs effect, and dps or tanks slotting heals do little to outweigh the applicable power of a dedicated healer (considering additional effects and buffs).

I think you are splitting hairs here. The title makes your intentions for this thread very clear. That coupled with your suggestion is a clear message you want the challenge of unavoidable damage increased so that a healer is needed. Yes, those DoTs have to be unavoidable to make a difference.

And in the end, adjustments are not needed because many groups, as Code pointed out, do need healers with the current design. Clearly this is not because of the one shot mechanics you are complaining about but that most players are not the top players Code refers to.