Stamina Necromancer & The Future of Monoclass Raids

TeIvanni · May 2019

With the upcoming release of Necromancer, it looks like Monoclass raids will be all but inevitable.

Currently on PTS, Stamina Necromancers are outperforming every other DPS class.

I did some testing on the new target dummy and these were the numbers I was getting:
Running Velidreth + Lokkestiiz + Relequen (no graveyard cheese for necromancer)
Stamina Classes (damage per second in the thousands):
Necromancer: 91-92
Warden: 87-89k
Nightblade: 85-87
Sorcerer: 84-86k
Templar: 82-84
Dragonknight: 80-82

These numbers are incredibly concerning.
Stamina Necromancer out performs the second highest dps class by 7%.
It also out performs the lowest dps class by 15%
If nothing is changed before Necromancer's release, it will surely mean a Necromancer Monoclass Meta for PvE.

For a healthy diverse PvE environment, there should be no more than a 5% gap in damage output between the lowest dps stamina class and the highest dps stamina class.
However ZoS want's to accomplish this, whether it be Nerf Necromancer, buff other classes, or a mix of both... but something needs to be done.

Update 1:
After reading some of the comments and talking with a few other players, apparently I should be running Whirling Blades as an execute on most of the lower performing classes.
I will be updating my testing later today.

Update 2:
I am unable to do further testing, do to the removal of Target Iron Atronach, Trial from the crownstore.

Update 3:
Trial dummy back! Test numbers updated.

TeIvanni · May 2019

@Gilliamtherogue

Icy_Waffles · May 2019

Bit dramatic.

ecru · May 2019

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Bit dramatic.

Is it though? A raid full of stam necros rotating ults for near permanent major vuln seems a bit broken. I don't want to see anything nerfed, but if stam necro is really 10k+ ahead of stamdk, that's a problem that should be addressed (by buffing stamdk

) IMO.

royo · May 2019

My results for stam on pts: necro 94k, warden 93k, nightblade 93k, stamsorc 92k, dk and stamplar sub 90k

Wuuffyy · May 2019

Scream. It’s suppose to be p2w. You want a game and servers? This is how they keep them up.

Tannus15 · May 2019

Warden usage in end game is still very low. maybe they are trying to encourage a meta shift to boost the initial class numbers...

Also, until recently raids were mono class nightblades. sooooo yeah.

Tessitura · May 2019

You do understand the test dummies in the pts are bugged right now right? Not a accurate way to see it's real parse. Not to mention the performance drop that comes from corpse requirements in a live fight. I don't think they have fixed the test dummies yet, so I am pretty sure we should wait until they do... IF they do.

Until then, I am more concerned with the bugs plaguing the class and the AI issues with blastbones.

Anhedonie · May 2019

1) Dummies are bugged
2) You didn't test necro in live environment, right? Blastbones not dealing damage to the correct target, corpses not spawning/removing your aoe dots, *** up telegraphs...pray necro would be able to deal the same damage magward does.

Ankael07 · May 2019

That new target dummy provides a variety of buffs/debuffs from across the game. You cant have those buffs/debuffs with a raid full of stam necros. Someone correct me if Im wrong

Kikke · May 2019

Pointing to Liko's 96?k stamsorc parse. The meta has not been found for every class yet. Relax.

TeIvanni · May 2019

It has been brought to my attention I should be using an AoE spamable as an Execute.

LiquidPony · May 2019

TeIvanni wrote: »

With the upcoming release of Necromancer, it looks like Monoclass raids will be all but inevitable.

Currently on PTS, Stamina Necromancers are outperforming every other DPS class.

I did some testing on the new target dummy and these were the numbers I was getting:
Running Velidreth + Lokkestiiz + Relequen (no graveyard cheese for necromancer)
Stamina Classes (damage per second in the thousands):
Necromancer: 91-92
Nightblade: 85-87
Templar: 82-84
Warden: 81-83
Sorcerer: 81-83
Dragonknight: 80-81

These numbers are incredibly concerning.
Stamina Necromancer out performs the second highest dps class by 7%.
It also out performs the lowest dps class by 15%
If nothing is changed before Necromancer's release, it will surely mean a Necromancer Monoclass Meta for PvE.

For a healthy diverse PvE environment, there should be no more than a 5% gap in damage output between the lowest dps stamina class and the highest dps stamina class.
However ZoS want's to accomplish this, whether it be Nerf Necromancer, buff other classes, or a mix of both... but something needs to be done.

These numbers are all really low.

I just hopped on and did a couple of parses on a few specs. Nothing fancy.

1. Stamden, Rele + Lokke + Veli, same old static rotation I've been using forever. No Whirling Blades, no dynamic trap, nothing fancy:

2. Stamsorc, Rele + Lokke + Maelstrom DW, just the typical vMA rotation from beginning to end. Didn't even adjust the CP appropriately, no finesse to the rotation. I know Liko has a 96k parse with this setup:

3. Stamsorc 2H, Rele + Lokke + Veli, just Wrecking Blow spam until it's Executioner time. This one could easily go a few K higher as well because it's over-penetrating since CP wasn't adjusted:

I'm also quite certain stamDKs are hitting far higher than 80-81. Not really sure what the ceiling is but I was hitting 88-89k earlier today toying with Maelstrom DW.

Not using Whirling Blades on any of these either.

satanio · May 2019

I disagree. There shouldn’t be any nerfs until the class is working properly. Parts passive bugs out everything.

I am surprised that you are surprised about stamnecromancers performance while having relequen on him.
That class has bonus dmg to dots, and relequen is often one of 3 major sources of dps. So theres good chunk of dps difference.
P.S. According to my tests, warden is better then stamplar, almost as good as necro.

MellowMagic · May 2019

Case and point why stamplars needs some buffs before you start throwing nerfs everywhere else.

Masel · May 2019

TeIvanni wrote: »

With the upcoming release of Necromancer, it looks like Monoclass raids will be all but inevitable.

Currently on PTS, Stamina Necromancers are outperforming every other DPS class.

I did some testing on the new target dummy and these were the numbers I was getting:
Running Velidreth + Lokkestiiz + Relequen (no graveyard cheese for necromancer)
Stamina Classes (damage per second in the thousands):
Necromancer: 91-92
Nightblade: 85-87
Templar: 82-84
Warden: 81-83
Sorcerer: 81-83
Dragonknight: 80-81

These numbers are incredibly concerning.
Stamina Necromancer out performs the second highest dps class by 7%.
It also out performs the lowest dps class by 15%
If nothing is changed before Necromancer's release, it will surely mean a Necromancer Monoclass Meta for PvE.

For a healthy diverse PvE environment, there should be no more than a 5% gap in damage output between the lowest dps stamina class and the highest dps stamina class.
However ZoS want's to accomplish this, whether it be Nerf Necromancer, buff other classes, or a mix of both... but something needs to be done.

To be fair, I've seen liko do 92k on a stamden this week and close to 90k on stamsorc and NB as well. Haven't seen a stam necro parse yet, but it's no wonder they outperform on the raid dummy, because they are he only spec that has a debuff the dummy does not have: major vulnerability. So the necro has highest potential on there in isolation, but it can also lift up the other classes' dps as well when they play together with the necro. You have to have at least one person of other classes as DD, because otherwise you will unavoidably miss out on buffs or debuffs that are class specific, since you have 6 classes and usually 4 support spots.

This does not alleviate the issue noticeably, but for as long as buffs and debuffs can all be shifted to support, there is no reason to not bring the one class with highest individual dps as often as possible. Ideally all classes would be able to deal similar dps so it wouldn't matter, but that is pretty much unobtainable. It might be obtainable on a dummy, but in a raid that is basically impossible.

xMovingTarget · May 2019

So far it looks like you can play more different classes. Instead of only stamblade. Classes are so close together. But yea. StamCro has the OP ultimate that melts things if you chain multiple together.
But that is the only thing that would incentivise necro stacking. I dont think it will be a necro "monoclass" setup though.

forumsmurf · May 2019

People are missing the point. It isn't just the consideration of a parse in isolation, but when you put 7-8 Stamcros together and coordinate Goliath ults for optimal Major Vuln uptime you are going to get group damage values way higher than what you could get before. Sure, the dummy isolated parses only show a differential of 3-4k. But once you throw many Stamcros into the fray you're just going to get absurd group numbers way higher than other group combinations could get purely because of Major Vuln.

This is further exacerbated due to the phasing out of War Machine with the release of the new Major Slayer set. It diminishes the need for a class with low ulti costs to optimize group dps when every dps can get the buff on their own while not compromising anything except a set bonus which frankly speaking, isn't even that bad considering the max Major Slayer uptime used to be 60%~ and now you'd get 100% with Lokkestiiz.

At least for the magicka side of things, it isn't this worrisome as there isn't a magicka version of Lokkestiiz, but even after the Snipe nerfs I'm pretty sure that 7-8 Bow/Bow Lokkestiiz + Tzogvin Stamcros will outdamage a well-balanced Magplar/Magblade/Magcro draft composition.

Kalitas · May 2019

Yeah, this is crap. Stam Sorc is pulling at least 93k. So you're telling me StamSorc is OP and should be nerfed now? Also, StamDK is parsing up there with StamSorc.

Azyle1 · May 2019

I did test over the weekend and found ( with rele/tooth/ veli OR Stormfirst on a Khajiit Necro );

sNecro was at like 99 - 100k.
sWarden was around 95k.
sBlade was the lowest at 90k, which is weird cause that is my main on live but I may just need to practice the new rotation more.

Izaki · May 2019

royo wrote: »

My results for stam on pts: necro 94k, warden 93k, nightblade 93k, stamsorc 92k, dk and stamplar sub 90k

^ Yeah that's kinda more in line with what I'm having. No drastic 10k difference between classes at all. Top 3 being all REALLY close.

1. Stam Necro
2. Stam Warden/Stamblade
3. Stam Sorc
4. Stam DK
5. Stamplar

Morgul667 · May 2019

I thought we were parsing around 65k lately

But the dps increase is huge here?

Azyle1 · May 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

I thought we were parsing around 65k lately

But the dps increase is huge here?

New Dummy is what people are parsing on.

Mettaricana · May 2019

TeIvanni wrote: »

With the upcoming release of Necromancer, it looks like Monoclass raids will be all but inevitable.

Currently on PTS, Stamina Necromancers are outperforming every other DPS class.

I did some testing on the new target dummy and these were the numbers I was getting:
Running Velidreth + Lokkestiiz + Relequen (no graveyard cheese for necromancer)
Stamina Classes (damage per second in the thousands):
Necromancer: 91-92
Nightblade: 85-87
Templar: 82-84
Warden: 81-83
Sorcerer: 81-83
Dragonknight: 80-81

These numbers are incredibly concerning.
Stamina Necromancer out performs the second highest dps class by 7%.
It also out performs the lowest dps class by 15%
If nothing is changed before Necromancer's release, it will surely mean a Necromancer Monoclass Meta for PvE.

For a healthy diverse PvE environment, there should be no more than a 5% gap in damage output between the lowest dps stamina class and the highest dps stamina class.
However ZoS want's to accomplish this, whether it be Nerf Necromancer, buff other classes, or a mix of both... but something needs to be done.

While i value your testing im all for this since why does every other existing class have to be the highest stam dps. Im all for the new contender meta since previously its all mag in trials and the fun stam classes just not being viable for a trial bad skills agains mag favored long range bosses. Also there seems to be a strong stigma on forums of players refusing to play necro at all so i dont think the monoclass will be an issue lotta base game class toters refusing change i feel we may see an huge influx like wardens then a massive die off in favor of other classes players are familiar with..

Excelsus · May 2019

Mettaricana wrote: »

TeIvanni wrote: »

With the upcoming release of Necromancer, it looks like Monoclass raids will be all but inevitable.

Currently on PTS, Stamina Necromancers are outperforming every other DPS class.

I did some testing on the new target dummy and these were the numbers I was getting:
Running Velidreth + Lokkestiiz + Relequen (no graveyard cheese for necromancer)
Stamina Classes (damage per second in the thousands):
Necromancer: 91-92
Nightblade: 85-87
Templar: 82-84
Warden: 81-83
Sorcerer: 81-83
Dragonknight: 80-81

These numbers are incredibly concerning.
Stamina Necromancer out performs the second highest dps class by 7%.
It also out performs the lowest dps class by 15%
If nothing is changed before Necromancer's release, it will surely mean a Necromancer Monoclass Meta for PvE.

For a healthy diverse PvE environment, there should be no more than a 5% gap in damage output between the lowest dps stamina class and the highest dps stamina class.
However ZoS want's to accomplish this, whether it be Nerf Necromancer, buff other classes, or a mix of both... but something needs to be done.

While i value your testing im all for this since why does every other existing class have to be the highest stam dps. Im all for the new contender meta since previously its all mag in trials and the fun stam classes just not being viable for a trial bad skills agains mag favored long range bosses. Also there seems to be a strong stigma on forums of players refusing to play necro at all so i dont think the monoclass will be an issue lotta base game class toters refusing change i feel we may see an huge influx like wardens then a massive die off in favor of other classes players are familiar with..

I for one eagerly accept our necro overlords. After 2 years of escalating mageblade dominance in trials to have a ranged stam class that can compete is beautiful. I will summon their tears!

Priyasekarssk · May 2019

ecru wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Bit dramatic.

Is it though? A raid full of stam necros rotating ults for near permanent major vuln seems a bit broken. I don't want to see anything nerfed, but if stam necro is really 10k+ ahead of stamdk, that's a problem that should be addressed (by buffing stamdk ) IMO.

Improve tankablity on all classes . IMO