Solar Flare changes are unwarranted

UppGRAYxDD · April 2019

Just like the title says, I feel like this nerf is nonsense.

Solar Flare:
Reduced the cast time from this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 1 second from 1.1 seconds.
Increased the travel speed to match other projectiles.
Reduced the damage by approximately 37% to make up for the fact that it can be cast more frequently.
Reduced base cost from to 2970 Magicka from 3240.

So not only will the damage get nerfed by a metric ton, but you also decided to increase the cost too?(edit misread, cheaper but really not enough) And all under the guise of "now you can cast it more!". Just another terrible change that further homogenizes the Templar class. Now I do not test on PTS because I play console, but unless that flare is like javelin travel speed it will be relocated to our our broken down "House" down by the river. So just for argument sake lets break down dark flare for those who never use it.

Dark Flare
Pros: Hits hard, applies major defile...... yea thats about it after the empowerment changes

Cons: Sloooooow travel time, 1.1 second channel time, dodge-able, interrupt-able,and has an audio que to warn target

Now lets list the current uses for this skill in PvP/PvE enviroments:

PvE: Ranged DPS- currently no competitive PvE DPS will use dark flare for the many cons above. Mainly it's just too slow and the dmg is too low to justify the ability slot

PvP: Ranged DPS or Gank build- In PvP this ability does have niches, but still the ability is almost a liability in combat when not just spamming from the safety of a wall or large group. You will get interrupted, you will miss alot, and if not careful when casting you will run out of magicka quickly.

Now I understand more then most that Dark Flares can hit hard, but to do so you have to build in such a way that you sacrifice resource regeneration and survive-ability to extreme levels. Even without the upcoming nerf, most common magicka templar builds will struggle to land dark flares larger then 5-7k in PvP and 10-15 in PvE. Now take off 37%.... you now have a 1 second channeled ability that will hit for 3150-4410 in PvP and 6300- 9450 in PvE... light attacks hit harder...

Who was huffing paint when this was thought up ZoS?????

At least make it undogeable, uninterruptable, instant cast, something...

P.S: I don't expect any change to be made because this is one of the least used abilities in the game and ZoS's track record with "Thinking it Through" is less then terrible.

LiquidPony · April 2019

Am I reading the patch notes wrong? How do you interpret "reduced the base cost" as a cost increase?

Also, PvE DPS do use Solar Barrage.

DeadlyRecluse · April 2019

I like how they are reducing the cast time by 9 or 10 percent, and reducing the damage by 37% to....compensate.

Especially as you don't really chain cast it, as you want to sneak in a light attack to take advantage of the empower, so you won't really see any benefit from the nominally faster cast time.

I currently have a dark flare burst build that does pretty well at nuking people if they slip up and eat a flare or two. With this change, it's no longer really going to be a flare gank build, instead it'll be more of a flare spam build...

brandonv516 · April 2019

Someone missed reading comprehension class.

If it does say:

Reduced base cost to 2970 Magicka from 3240.

Then it means it costs less.

frostz417 · April 2019

If you’re using dark flare in pve, you probably hit 14k dps and need to change up what you’re doing
Solar barrage got buffed so 🤷‍♂️.
Dark flare is also one of the most annoying zergling abilities in the game.
Also you know “reduced the cost” means it cost less now. Not more.
Also don’t make such ludacris assumptions Unless you’ve played in the pts

kathandira · April 2019

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

I do not test on PTS

Find a friend on PC, and ask them to run some tests. Till then...how would you know?

Have them use the exact same build through and through on Live, and on PTS and spam the ability till the dummy is dead. See which one does better. Otherwise, we can only trust that ZoS tested it and the adjustment is accurate.

UppGRAYxDD · April 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Am I reading the patch notes wrong? How do you interpret "reduced the base cost" as a cost increase?

Also, PvE DPS do use Solar Barrage.

ohh my bad, did read this wrong... but no this is solar flare, not barrage.

frostz417 wrote: »

If you’re using dark flare in pve, you probably hit 14k dps and need to change up what you’re doing
Solar barrage got buffed so 🤷‍♂️.
Dark flare is also one of the most annoying zergling abilities in the game.
Also you know “reduced the cost” means it cost less now. Not more.
Also don’t make such ludacris assumptions Unless you’ve played in the pts

yup misread cost.. editing now so ppl quit losing their minds and the meaning behind the post. Also I dont need to test on PTS to see that a 37% dmg nerf without either making the channel faster then 1 sec or massively decreasing the cost more make this ability useless. Or if even they made the flares move at "Ludacris speed", then I could get behind ZoS on this one...

kathandira wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

I do not test on PTS

Find a friend on PC, and ask them to run some tests. Till then...how would you know?

Have them use the exact same build through and through on Live, and on PTS and spam the ability till the dummy is dead. See which one does better. Otherwise, we can only trust that ZoS tested it and the adjustment is accurate.

take 37% off the current tooltip... if you wanna test shoot some at a target dummy and see how fast it travels compared to before, if not a noticeable speed difference then I dont need to test to know that atomic nerfing the dmg of this skill will end the use of it for me and many magplars. Its already very risk/reward in PvP and PvE unless you rely completely on healers... In the meantime any constructive PTS information is healpful for us pleabs on console.

kathandira · April 2019

As a single cast, the damage will be lower. But as consecutive casts over the course of an entire boss fight it could amount to more DPS. It will need to be tested in a full parse.

UppGRAYxDD · April 2019

kathandira wrote: »

As a single cast, the damage will be lower. But as consecutive casts over the course of an entire boss fight it could amount to more DPS. It will need to be tested in a full parse.

This is the only way I would expect that ZoS rationalized the change, but I highly doubt that 1/10th faster is greater then the 37%dmg loss

kathandira · April 2019

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

As a single cast, the damage will be lower. But as consecutive casts over the course of an entire boss fight it could amount to more DPS. It will need to be tested in a full parse.

This is the only way I would expect that ZoS rationalized the change, but I highly doubt that 1/10th faster is greater then the 37%dmg loss

Between that and the cost reduction, and the travel speed, it could even it out. I do have 3 templars, when it goes live, I can do a before and after comparison. But i'm a console pleb, so I can't test it for quite a while = /

BlackMadara · April 2019

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Am I reading the patch notes wrong? How do you interpret "reduced the base cost" as a cost increase?

Also, PvE DPS do use Solar Barrage.

ohh my bad, did read this wrong... but no this is solar flare, not barrage.

frostz417 wrote: »

If you’re using dark flare in pve, you probably hit 14k dps and need to change up what you’re doing
Solar barrage got buffed so 🤷‍♂️.
Dark flare is also one of the most annoying zergling abilities in the game.
Also you know “reduced the cost” means it cost less now. Not more.
Also don’t make such ludacris assumptions Unless you’ve played in the pts

yup misread cost.. editing now so ppl quit losing their minds and the meaning behind the post. Also I dont need to test on PTS to see that a 37% dmg nerf without either making the channel faster then 1 sec or massively decreasing the cost more make this ability useless. Or if even they made the flares move at "Ludacris speed", then I could get behind ZoS on this one...

kathandira wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

I do not test on PTS

Find a friend on PC, and ask them to run some tests. Till then...how would you know?

Have them use the exact same build through and through on Live, and on PTS and spam the ability till the dummy is dead. See which one does better. Otherwise, we can only trust that ZoS tested it and the adjustment is accurate.

take 37% off the current tooltip... if you wanna test shoot some at a target dummy and see how fast it travels compared to before, if not a noticeable speed difference then I dont need to test to know that atomic nerfing the dmg of this skill will end the use of it for me and many magplars. Its already very risk/reward in PvP and PvE unless you rely completely on healers... In the meantime any constructive PTS information is healpful for us pleabs on console.

They also reduced the post cast lockout of cast time abilities by .2s. That, alongside the cost decrease is probably why they reduced the damage so much.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2019

I agree, zos really ought to have left all the same damage on the skills and then tuned them down if they were over performing.

Drdeath20 · April 2019

It does roughly the same damage as other spammables but cost more, has a cast time, is dodgeable and reflectable. Yahoo

Baconlad · May 2019

They wanted to make it land faster, so that it's easier to land. The skill is, I believe a PvP skill. I think zenimax wanted to keep it as a cast time utility skill, so that any magplar will use it for its defile only. This is how they "think" they can buff typical magplar builds by giving them a skill they will cast once every six seconds that gives the most brutal version of defile, an AoE six second major defile...its such a powerful debuff, and they anticipate more magplar will use it in between sweeps, so they needed to nerf the damage since it will land faster.

I understand why they do this...they want to give magplar a bit more utility, we have an immense amount of damage abilities as a class already, more so than any other class. Hell we have three forms of CC.

Having said all of this...I completely disagree with their direction. @UppGRAYxDD I know you. I watched ur vids from a while back. I've been playing a non gank playstyle of this for the past year...and i as well am going to miss it...badly. slimecraw, soulshine, warmaiden x5 light. Its pretty sad, but my dark flare that's a cast time, with soulshine spell damage, will hit for less than my Aurora javelin...without the soulshine buff. much less with burning light proc...even if they go with a much more minor 10% damage nerf it will severely upset me. I'd rather them remove the defile and empower together just to keep the 25k tooltip.

I understand why they did this...opening the skill up for most "balanced" magplar to use...but what it's actually doing is forcing my magplar, who has built for extreme damage, and sacrifices his capability to fight outnumbered to not be rewarded by doing so....its almost like they want every magplar to play tanky as *** or be a sweeplar. Which are horrible to fight, and moderately fun to play in comparison.

@ZOS_GinaBruno can we get this complaint forwarded? It's quite sad...there are surely other skills you can add the defile effect to...right? Maybe sun shield? Solar barrage? Or just take it away completely. Leave dark flare alone, our identity as a class is cast times and channels, I embrace and encourage it, but dark flares damage is consistent with a non cast time skill on PTS. The answer is not to go forward with your idea, not remove the cast time and make in immediate cast...which I suspect will be coming shortly to PTS

Eormenric · May 2019

frostz417 wrote: »

If you’re using dark flare in pve, you probably hit 14k dps and need to change up what you’re doing
Solar barrage got buffed so 🤷‍♂️.
Dark flare is also one of the most annoying zergling abilities in the game.
Also you know “reduced the cost” means it cost less now. Not more.
Also don’t make such ludacris assumptions Unless you’ve played in the pts

I'm very particular (and rebellious) when it comes to my builds. Being ~460CP, I invested in a cast-time, magic-damage Magplar for PvE. My spam is Dark Flare. I'm able to pull 20k dps, self-buffed, with investment in elemental weapon light attacks. I don't use Zaan, but I just got it, so I imagine that will be a major increase. I'm still working through the build and rotation to maximize it's potential.

I do feel that Dark Flare is PvP-focused, since Major Defile is nearly useless in PvE. Still, this is what I enjoy and I'd like to see it balanced to retain a presence in PvE--for those willing to take it there.

UppGRAYxDD · May 2019

The sad thing @Baconlad , is that the skill is so unused that a major nerf like the proposed one will receive almost zero resistance from the player base aside from a few outkasts like myself. Now, I understand the reasoning, but if thats the case just make it an aoe defile like solar barrage. Then maybe someone will use it. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and it will be the next meta skill for PvE rotation....but in the arena of cyrodil, it will become a forgotten skill. Even with lowered cast time, the cons far outweigh the pros for slotting it unless the damage is there.

Also, anyone test speed and dmg on PTS???? Please let us know.

UppGRAYxDD · May 2019

Drdeath20 wrote: »

It does roughly the same damage as other spammables but cost more, has a cast time, is dodgeable and reflectable. Yahoo

This guy gets it... where's your brains at ZoS???

At the very least make it an instant...or give Templar "Blinding Light" again...