parsing vs performance

Grandma · May 2019

I'd like to open the table to something i've come to be familiar with lately. Parsing is so different from actual raiding in so many ways. People say you should parse higher in raids because you have more buffs and stuff - but this is false. if anything you usually parse lower, unless it's an old fashion stack + burn.

In raids there are mechanics, add waves, things you have to wait for, your raid leader might call you to slow down so you don't enrage, you might have to revive, or help out by slotting non-dps skills like purge.

For example. I parse 44k on a 6mill with my magplar master architect. Pretty good numbers, i'm proud of that. So i know i'm capable.

then we go into vhof for example. there's multiple bosses, performance dips messes up weaving sometimes, you have to slot ritual of retribution to help with purges and hots, you have to switch targets constantly on orbs and the other boss, pay attention to shulk spawns, etc etc etc. and that's just the first boss. So i can go from parsing 44k and in a supposedly better environment barely scrape with a technical 30k counting all damage i did to all adds and bosses.

so my discussion is, what is your experience with this, what do you think some realistic threshholds are, what's the general translation, and what are "easier" parse fights, which ones are the worst, and how can you know for sure if you're actually good at dpsing?

RogueShark · May 2019

I think the point of 'parsing' is to basically know that, yes, you know your rotation and how to squeeze the most from it in a perfect (stationary, controlled) environment. Parsing will also help someone learn and commit the rotation/buffs/etc to muscle memory. In that sense, it's useful and it's a good benchmark for raid leads to use to determine if someone understands their class, build, and rotation. I don't necessarily think a good parse = good raider, but I do think a good raider will be able to produce good parses, since they will need to manage that demanding rotation while under the stress of mechanics.

With that said, people will often wear different gear for parses. Some will even self-buff with jorvulds before the parse for a longer first-buff uptime. It's kind of weird how the mentality comes down to farming for high-crit/proc/rng parses to save when, IMO, a parse is pretty much only good to showcase how well you can weave and how well you know your build.

Grianasteri · May 2019

I tend to agree with the OP. I also think that most folk will tend to agree.

RougeShark has basically said what needs to be said.

The parse is a demonstration of how an individual performs under perfect circumstances. That can be indicative of performance in a dungeon/raid, with respect to how well someone can maintain their rotation, sustain and of course the damage they can put out etc.

It does not of course, as you eluded to, demonstrate how good a player someone is with respect to all the other important aspects of gameplay, mechanics and team work.

The parse is also somewhat of a flawed measure, I say this because it has been shown that moving from say green/blue gear, to gold gear, particularly gold weapons, can add thousands of dps. Factor in maelstrom gold weapons, that's even more dps. Factor in moving from good sets to best in slot standard sets, that's more dps. Factor in effective enchants and traits, that's more dps. Factor in moving from lower or mid championship points to max 810, that's literally thousands more dps.

Can you see where I am going with this? While ultimately the deciding factor in high dps is effective skill choice and rotation, with LA weaving... its a simple fact that there are thousands and thousands of dps available before we even consider the most important factors of rotation and weaving.

Joxer61 · May 2019

to me...dummy testing, aka parses, is to show the potential of a class/build, period. It in no way should be an end all to either "hit this number or GTFO" sort of mentality.
Mechanics will ALWAYS be a factor unless the fight is a good ol tank and spank like Patchwork was In Naxx in WOW. But these days fights like that are very few if at all, and therefore as the OP mentioned so many other factors contribute to how you play (or should) that to expect players to "bring" 80k dps to a trial or get out should never be a thing.
The dummys are fantastic for polishing your rotation so that in those moments where you can just focus on one thing you have half a clue as to what you are doing.
So, two-fold...…
1 > great to show what a class/build is capable of and
2 > great place to polish your playstyle/rotation and how good you look in said fight!!

I just hope this game and its community of players don't go down that dark rabbit hole of XYZ dps or get out. That would be sad as many players much like the OP are 100% capable of doing the trial without hitting 9000. To exclude folks because of parses would be ugly.

Haquor · May 2019

Dps is important.

If you cant hit an achievable number on a dummy and demonstrate your understanding of your class then you wont hit it during a trial and no matter how good you are at mechanics you likely wont contribute as well as you need to in some situations.

Performance is also important. The dummy for that is the trial. Its challenging to enforce a gate in relation to that outside of the trial itself.

Im not saying the whole hit this or *** off attitude is good. But for some trials there needs to be some checks for capability.

Another way of looking at it....Shooting is just one component of combat. You still have to demonstrate the ability to conduct it effectively and to a certain level so it is second nature when there is plenty of other *** going on.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2019

The answer is it depends on your raids and it depends on the fight. In the best raids, almost every fight amounts to a stack and burn. The best raids also provide a host of buffs. If your raid is good, you should out parse a dummy on most fights (certainly there are exceptions).

If your raid is not so good, you will probably have to slot more defensive/utility skills as a DPS. You are probably going to move around more and you likely won’t have the same uptimes on your buffs, so pulling “optimized” DPS is less likely.

Nestor · May 2019

Training Dummies are for Practicing and Honing your Rotation.

Bosses are where you apply them.

I once mentioned how DPS will always be lower on a boss than on a training dummy and I got lynched for 10 pages.

kylewwefan · May 2019

Ya know everyone on the forums here is a DPS God. They just won’t understand. But us peasants over here. Yeah we understand where you’re coming from. Even the simplest of tank and spank will go awry with less than stellar group.

bulbousb16_ESO · May 2019

Grandma wrote: »

Parsing is so different from actual raiding in so many ways.

And swimming is different from stapling. Shall we continue?

Grandma · May 2019

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Grandma wrote: »

Parsing is so different from actual raiding in so many ways.

And swimming is different from stapling. Shall we continue?

oh no, it can't read.

bulbousb16_ESO · May 2019

Masticating is so different from actual refurbishing.

What is your point? That two verbs which are completely and totally unrelated, are different?

Runefang · May 2019

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Masticating is so different from actual refurbishing.

What is your point? That two verbs which are completely and totally unrelated, are different?

Your analogy is bad. The difference between parsing and raiding is more like the difference between knowing the alphabet and knowing how to write. One gives you the tools to do the other.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2019

Nestor wrote: »

Training Dummies are for Practicing and Honing your Rotation.

Bosses are where you apply them.

I once mentioned how DPS will always be lower on a boss than on a training dummy and I got lynched for 10 pages.

LMAO

I seem to vaguely remember that.

As someone who has often made the claim that raid parses should be higher than dummy parses, I fully acknowledge that for the vast majority of the player base, it's not really true. End of the day, I have been in raids that couldnt clear VAA, I have done pad 5 HM burns VMOL, and most things in between. Your raid, the buffs you get, and the strategy they employ for a particular fight, really matter in this discussion.

Your underlying parse also matters. If you are a 50k+ DPS on a dummy, I expect your parse to go up in a raid. Chances are that your raid is generally going to be good, and you obviously have a really good handle on your rotation, so its less likely to get away from you when $hIt hits the proverbial fan.

The flip-side is that if you are 30K DPS (certainly adequate for most content), I expect it to likely go down in a raid. Chances are you are still using safe/progression strats, and in that DPS range, your rotation has some pretty big holes in it considering you are in an "ideal" environment.

The hard truth is (maybe ill get lynched for 10 pages), if you are only pulling 30k or less on a dummy, your rotation is garbage, period (no matter how much you want to blame your gear). Garbage rotations dont get better in raids, they get worse. Not surprising at all that it would drop once you add in more variables.

Glass · May 2019

I've been parsing on a 6mil dummy in the center of the new arena house with all the levers running at the same time and checking with death recount the amount of damage that i take from the heavy aoes. While it was never completely 0 damage taken I came pretty close to that and pushed 42k on a magblade, although I had to use Valkyn because Zaan was pretty useless since being at melee range made it impossible to not take damage. With that said I don't think is possible doing it on a stam character.

Iskiab · May 2019

My dps doesn’t drop in trials vs the dummy.

There have always been specs/rotations in games that perform better on a dummy then in game. The lack of a combat log in ESO means people can’t really tell the difference, so everything’s about dummy humping.

I mean, at the top end people complain about a 2k dummy dps difference while ignoring aoe potential, whole thing’s ridiculous.

Hopefully with ESO logs this changes. I don’t raid much in ESO, the thought of raiding as a dps without a website to compare parses so you can go for top dps sounds boring. In other games competing for top dps is the only thing that kept people logging in. Retention in score trial guilds must be horrible.

Anyways, hopefully ESO logs changes the trial community.

lassitershawn · May 2019

You can ABSOLUTELY get more DPS in raid on certain fights IF your group (supports mostly) is good, AND if you've learned the fight that you're doing well. In some cases you might get slightly less DPS than on a dummy, but the DPS is a more meaningful indicator of your skill as a player than a dummy parse is.

Since you mention HoF, here are some parses from my HoF progression group where everyone is on their game, we aren't having to rez, etc. Some players can do even higher, stam could probably do quite a bit higher. If you ARE having to rez a lot, supports are weak, burn strats aren't be using, or you're slotting support skills, I definitely wouldn't expect as high a parse as you can get on a dummy but it is definitely possible under good raiding conditions with a fight that you are good at.

Grandma · May 2019

lassitershawn wrote: »

You can ABSOLUTELY get more DPS in raid on certain fights IF your group (supports mostly) is good, AND if you've learned the fight that you're doing well. In some cases you might get slightly less DPS than on a dummy, but the DPS is a more meaningful indicator of your skill as a player than a dummy parse is.

Since you mention HoF, here are some parses from my HoF progression group where everyone is on their game, we aren't having to rez, etc. Some players can do even higher, stam could probably do quite a bit higher. If you ARE having to rez a lot, supports are weak, burn strats aren't be using, or you're slotting support skills, I definitely wouldn't expect as high a parse as you can get on a dummy but it is definitely possible under good raiding conditions with a fight that you are good at.

yeah damn that warhorn uptime.. nice. this is a fully optimized team. I guess a lot of it boils down to your supports, for sure. I was pulling ~30k on twins in vhof last night but our healers were pretty bad, and it was more of a learning group. I was just frustrated by my own performance, inhibited by bad healers and having to rez and such.

I wonder if lowering performance would make weaving a bit easier too. I find that in performance heavy areas in raids it's a bit harder to weave.

bulbousb16_ESO · May 2019

Runefang wrote: »

Your analogy is bad. The difference between parsing and raiding is more like the difference between knowing the alphabet and knowing how to write. One gives you the tools to do the other.

No, not at all. "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Raiding". "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with damage, or target dummies, or anything remotely related to ESO. It's almost as if one guy, probably a non-native English speaker, misused a word one time and people just picked up and ran with it...

Runefang · May 2019

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Your analogy is bad. The difference between parsing and raiding is more like the difference between knowing the alphabet and knowing how to write. One gives you the tools to do the other.

No, not at all. "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Raiding". "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with damage, or target dummies, or anything remotely related to ESO. It's almost as if one guy, probably a non-native English speaker, misused a word one time and people just picked up and ran with it...

In that case you're just being unnecessarily pedantic. It's a common term that's used in other MMOs (WoW, EQ etc) and comes from looking at logs of damage done. You understand what it means, so do the majority of end-gamers in MMOs. So the word is effective in communicating meaning.

idk · May 2019

Serious raid teams and guilds look at in raid parsing instead of dummy parsing. A dummy parse will get you in the door but if you cannot get the job done in an actual raid that is where is stops.

With that, everyone is dealing with the same mechanics and all so the leaders have a good idea of what is acceptable for their team for fights they tend to look at just as their as some fight that experienced leaders will not look at.

Easiest trial fight is probably vet mage as the dps can just stack on her butt if they are not doing HM. Hardest, there are a number of fights with more challenging mechanics in the newer trials when on HM. Best designed fight on live is Rakkhat.

MartiniDaniels · May 2019

It's pretty simple, you may learn mechanics in couple of hours, but learning to take max dps from your build will take much longer, weeks, months. And why majority of raids fails? When group can't kill adds fast enough.
You can always control boss and his mechanics, but when adds start to run amok, this is where wipes begin. So no matter how good your mechanics and experience are, if group dps is not enough you'll never pass. And vice versa with good group dps, it's not that difficult to get on mechanics even if people never did this HM before.

bulbousb16_ESO · May 2019

Runefang wrote: »

In that case you're just being unnecessarily pedantic. It's a common term that's used in other MMOs (WoW, EQ etc) and comes from looking at logs of damage done.

Just because it's misused in other MMOs does not justify its continual use (not unlike "toon" or "meta"). It's like WoW dumbed down the collective intelligence of gamers.

Joxer61 · May 2019

Haquor wrote: »

Dps is important.

If you cant hit an achievable number on a dummy and demonstrate your understanding of your class then you wont hit it during a trial and no matter how good you are at mechanics you likely wont contribute as well as you need to in some situations.

Performance is also important. The dummy for that is the trial. Its challenging to enforce a gate in relation to that outside of the trial itself.

Im not saying the whole hit this or *** off attitude is good. But for some trials there needs to be some checks for capability.

Another way of looking at it....Shooting is just one component of combat. You still have to demonstrate the ability to conduct it effectively and to a certain level so it is second nature when there is plenty of other *** going on.

BS on first point....lack of knowledge of mechanics is what wipes 90% or groups.
Point #2 Challenging standing in one spot?
"But for some trials there needs to be some checks for capability"....umm, that not how the game is designed....everyone can complete, just sadly not to the standards of a certain group...and that's fine, they are allowed to set forth "rules" if they want for THEIR trial teams, but not set a benchmark for the game on a whole.
The rest, yes, that's what practicing on said dummy should accomplish.

Joxer61 · May 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It's pretty simple, you may learn mechanics in couple of hours, but learning to take max dps from your build will take much longer, weeks, months. And why majority of raids fails? When group can't kill adds fast enough.
You can always control boss and his mechanics, but when adds start to run amok, this is where wipes begin. So no matter how good your mechanics and experience are, if group dps is not enough you'll never pass. And vice versa with good group dps, it's not that difficult to get on mechanics even if people never did this HM before.

"When group can't kill adds fast enough. " Umm, pretty sure trials don't have timers and if some do they are pretty lenient as this game, once again, is NOT WOW. Not about the highest dps. Now being able to do high dps fun...hell yea it is. A deal breaker, nope.

"You can always control boss and his mechanics, but when adds start to run amok, this is where wipes begin. So no matter how good your mechanics and experience are, if group dps is not enough you'll never pass. And vice versa with good group dps, it's not that difficult to get on mechanics even if people never did this HM before." You just went against your own first comment..that right there is lack of mechanics knowledge, and class knowledge to an extent. No amount of uber dps is any good if the tanks doesn't hold it and you aren't getting smashed in da face.

Really wish folks would quit pushing the high dps card....whats next, Gear Score? God please no.

Joxer61 · May 2019

delete

Joxer61 · May 2019

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Your analogy is bad. The difference between parsing and raiding is more like the difference between knowing the alphabet and knowing how to write. One gives you the tools to do the other.

No, not at all. "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Raiding". "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with damage, or target dummies, or anything remotely related to ESO. It's almost as if one guy, probably a non-native English speaker, misused a word one time and people just picked up and ran with it...

same as "meta"......

RogueShark · May 2019

Joxer61 wrote: »

"When group can't kill adds fast enough. " Umm, pretty sure trials don't have timers and if some do they are pretty lenient as this game, once again, is NOT WOW. Not about the highest dps. Now being able to do high dps fun...hell yea it is. A deal breaker, nope.

Trials do have timers tho. They're built into mechanics.
Don't kill your hulk fast enough in vMOL? Double smashes will wipe your group.
Don't kill the spider in vCR fast enough? Tank can't dodgeroll forever. Orbs aren't dying fast enough? They'll collide on someone, lots of damage. Shards in the basement? Well, if the DPS aren't killing them fast enough you're just going to flat out wipe.
Felms amd Llothis in vAS+2 will both enrage if they're up too long.
That one boss in vAA who spawns multiple adds that have to die in X amount of time or she will aoe wipe the group...
So yeh, there are timers.

Now it depends on your definition of lenient, to be fair. A halfway competent group can handle all these, but the higher the DPS, the easier it is on the whole group. Low DPS is a dealbreaker if things aren't dying fast enough.

Joxer61 · May 2019

RogueShark wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

"When group can't kill adds fast enough. " Umm, pretty sure trials don't have timers and if some do they are pretty lenient as this game, once again, is NOT WOW. Not about the highest dps. Now being able to do high dps fun...hell yea it is. A deal breaker, nope.

Trials do have timers tho. They're built into mechanics.
Don't kill your hulk fast enough in vMOL? Double smashes will wipe your group.
Don't kill the spider in vCR fast enough? Tank can't dodgeroll forever. Orbs aren't dying fast enough? They'll collide on someone, lots of damage. Shards in the basement? Well, if the DPS aren't killing them fast enough you're just going to flat out wipe.
Felms amd Llothis in vAS+2 will both enrage if they're up too long.
That one boss in vAA who spawns multiple adds that have to die in X amount of time or she will aoe wipe the group...
So yeh, there are timers.

Now it depends on your definition of lenient, to be fair. A halfway competent group can handle all these, but the higher the DPS, the easier it is on the whole group. Low DPS is a dealbreaker if things aren't dying fast enough.

Yes, on that I do agree...there does have to be a "certain" threshold that needs to be hit within reason, that's just common sense. I just hope people aren't excluded for being not quite up to to snuff, that's all.

Runefang · May 2019

Joxer61 wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

"When group can't kill adds fast enough. " Umm, pretty sure trials don't have timers and if some do they are pretty lenient as this game, once again, is NOT WOW. Not about the highest dps. Now being able to do high dps fun...hell yea it is. A deal breaker, nope.

Trials do have timers tho. They're built into mechanics.
Don't kill your hulk fast enough in vMOL? Double smashes will wipe your group.
Don't kill the spider in vCR fast enough? Tank can't dodgeroll forever. Orbs aren't dying fast enough? They'll collide on someone, lots of damage. Shards in the basement? Well, if the DPS aren't killing them fast enough you're just going to flat out wipe.
Felms amd Llothis in vAS+2 will both enrage if they're up too long.
That one boss in vAA who spawns multiple adds that have to die in X amount of time or she will aoe wipe the group...
So yeh, there are timers.

Now it depends on your definition of lenient, to be fair. A halfway competent group can handle all these, but the higher the DPS, the easier it is on the whole group. Low DPS is a dealbreaker if things aren't dying fast enough.

Yes, on that I do agree...there does have to be a "certain" threshold that needs to be hit within reason, that's just common sense. I just hope people aren't excluded for being not quite up to to snuff, that's all.

Everybody wants to take the path of least resistance. So if you get a group who can get a pad 5 burn rather than pad 7 by setting a higher DPS parse bar (therefore excluding some people) then that's what happens.

That said most groups are run by people with common sense, they take the guy doing 52k on the dummy who actually lives over the guy hitting 57k who dies a lot.

Iskiab · May 2019

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Your analogy is bad. The difference between parsing and raiding is more like the difference between knowing the alphabet and knowing how to write. One gives you the tools to do the other.

No, not at all. "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Raiding". "Parsing" has nothing whatsoever to do with damage, or target dummies, or anything remotely related to ESO. It's almost as if one guy, probably a non-native English speaker, misused a word one time and people just picked up and ran with it...

Parsing is how damage is calculated from combat logs. It’s a program that looks through combat logs and compiles everything to show dps. The term parsing goes back almost as far as raiding, where before parsers you has to open combat logs and look through them to figure out what the heck was going on.

I’d still prefer sifting through logs to being blind like right now in ESO in live.

bulbousb16_ESO · May 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Parsing is how damage is calculated from combat logs. It’s a program that looks through combat logs and compiles everything to show dps.

Let's take that at face value. It may have been historically correct, but it is certainly not the case in ESO, where training dummies show you exactly how much damage is done. There is no interpretation of logs necessary.

Futhermore, the way people are using the word now is as a verb meaning, "to see how much damage I can do on a training dummy".

I.e. "Hey man, did you hear I parsed 75k last night?" or "Hey, this new rotation really helps my parse". It's absurd.