Lokkestiiz set is overtuned, decreased need for coordination

lassitershawn · May 2019

As this video (not mine) explains, Lokkestiiz basically beats WM at any reasonable uptime (100% slayer with Lokkestiiz should not be too challenging and it doesn't even require 100% uptime to win) which should easily be achieved with 2x healers throwing out a decent amount of orbs, as well as abundant spider synergies and the occasional use of other synergies (purify, altar, maybe atro, harvest, conduit, etc.). I believe that this is unbalanced because the set does not require near as much group coordination as maintaining 3 good slayer stacks with 3 good slayer users providing slayer. There is also less risk because death of a WM/MA user will result in substantial slayer downtime for two people whereas death of a Lokkestiiz user does not affect your team as severely. Supports just have to pump out synergies for good Lokkestiiz uptime which they are doing anyways already and furthermore even more synergies are being added this patch with necromancer. It also decreases the amount of variety of sets used in a group if everyone is just running the same exact sets.

As a solution to this issue, the new set can be made BiS but not by way of major slayer. That way it will still be used and is valuable to farm but would only be replacing a 5pc on 5 members instead of destroying the much more interesting WM/MA gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs4TKXI--yU

Silver_Strider · May 2019

RIP to HoF runs forever. No point to any of those sets now.

WrathOfInnos · May 2019

It is strange that this set shares the same Major Slayer buff as War Machine and Master Architect. I see it as the stamina version of Moondancer (mirroring the release of a Magicka version of a popular old stamina set, Vicious Ophidian). In my opinion, they should have made it a more similar counterpart, giving either 448 Weapon damage or Stamina Regen for 30s after using a synergy. Then add one more standard set bonus to the Perfected version 5pc, maybe 833 Weapon Crit or 129 Weapon damage. This would mean that other Major Slayer sets do not become obsolete.

I wonder how Lokke is looking compared to Relequen. Or would those 2 sets be paired together?

Edit: Another change that would help this balance is the introduction of Perfected War Machine and Master Architect. These could drop exclusively from Assembly General HM (maybe 1 weapon, 1 armor, 1 jewelry per clear). An additional standard set bonus on the 5pc would make these old sets more competitive.

Masel · May 2019

The older trial sets cant really hold up with the newer ones at this point. The stat density the new ones (the ones that came out since summerset) provide is just unnecessarily high, especially since they contribute to the power gap more and more.

Groups with good support players will see more out of using this set for example, while groups with low amount of support/synergies will not make much use out of it. The interesting proc conditions (which have become their item set focus since summerset) sound good in theory, but also have drawbacks.

And to your question @WrathOfInnos, they are usually paired together, with Lokke being used on the front bar only.

LeHarrt91 · May 2019

Wouldn't Architect still be used on some magicka classes? As Lokke is a user only stamina set.

Tannus15 · May 2019

it feels like they are "buffing" stamina via sets these days.
relequen is a must have. it's not "slightly" better, it's significantly better. This looks to be the same.

Olupajmibanan · May 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

it feels like they are "buffing" stamina via sets these days.
relequen is a must have. it's not "slightly" better, it's significantly better. This looks to be the same.

Relequen is a must have on dummy parse not in new trials like Cloudrest or Asylum. Want to see you keeping some solid uptime on Relequen in those trials.

T3hasiangod · May 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is strange that this set shares the same Major Slayer buff as War Machine and Master Architect. I see it as the stamina version of Moondancer (mirroring the release of a Magicka version of a popular old stamina set, Vicious Ophidian). In my opinion, they should have made it a more similar counterpart, giving either 448 Weapon damage or Stamina Regen for 30s after using a synergy. Then add one more standard set bonus to the Perfected version 5pc, maybe 833 Weapon Crit or 129 Weapon damage. This would mean that other Major Slayer sets do not become obsolete.

I wonder how Lokke is looking compared to Relequen. Or would those 2 sets be paired together?

I honestly think that having a stamina MD would be pretty cool to have. It'll still be fairly strong (though probably won't beat out AY in organized groups) and it won't make WM obsolete. As it stands right now, there's really no reason to run WM stacks anymore in organized groups. Just run Lokkestiiz on all your stam DPS. Even with ~80 percent uptime on Lokkestiiz, you're still going to be beating out a best-case scenario WM stack.

Gnortranermara · May 2019

Yep, making this the stamina version of Moondancer would be much healthier for the game. Otherwise, mag DPS is left way too far behind and stam DPS is insanely overtuned.

SupremeRissole · May 2019

Gone are the days of stam coordinating their sets and bringing something to the group. First they got rid of NMG, Sunder etc, rip to those good ol days.
Next they make the only viable single target sets come from jewelry transmuting and Cloudrest (to sell Summerset).
Now that Morrowind is base game they dont need to sell it with the WM/MA incentive.
Now they need to sell the new chapter and what better way than to make the meta dps set only available from there.
Goodbye group set coodination, hello everyone wearing the exact same setup.

cpuScientist · May 2019

Please don't add this set. Just make it stamina moondancer plus a lil something. This just destroys the war machine use. Destroys the synergy of that set, and puts another nail in group synergies. And kills old content, why farm HOF when this set is purely better?

Horrible idea. Just make it stamina moondancer but a little stronger. Stop stringing stam along with these kinds of sets.

rafaelcsmaia · May 2019

I believe they wanted to make groups less reliant on low ulti classes like plars and nbs that keep nice uptime on majot slayer with war machine. However, this wont work, everyone and their momma will use this set and most likely nb and necro will remain in their overlord status

LiquidPony · May 2019

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I believe they wanted to make groups less reliant on low ulti classes like plars and nbs that keep nice uptime on majot slayer with war machine. However, this wont work, everyone and their momma will use this set and most likely nb and necro will remain in their overlord status

Don't agree with the diagnosis as it pertains to Nightblades here.

In fact, the existing WM/AY strategy is a part of why we have a Nightblade meta. The 3 WM stack meta means you want 3 stamblades or stamdens (since stamplars are booty). AY gives a larger benefit to classes with built-in crit damage modifiers (meaning Nightblades, again, since stamplars are booty). AY is also useless on a stamnecro for 25% of the fight. I mean sure there are many other, and larger, reasons that stamblades have been dominating PvE for so long but the gear meta plays a part.

Throwing the WM/AY setups out and switching to Tooth of Lokke is going to help move us away from the 8 stamblade meta IMO.

WrathOfInnos · May 2019

Also if they make it into a Stamina Moondancer they should rename it Sundancer because alliteration, haha.

Maw has Moondancer for Magicka.
Sunspire has Sundancer for Stamina.

They should also rename False Gods Devotion to something Yolnahkriin (because fire = Magicka DPS). The tank set currently called Claw of Yolnahkriin should be Claw of Lokkestiiz (because ice = tanking). At least Nahviintaas makes sense for naming (since healing magic is gold), although the effects of this set could use something more useful.

WrathOfInnos · May 2019

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I believe they wanted to make groups less reliant on low ulti classes like plars and nbs that keep nice uptime on majot slayer with war machine. However, this wont work, everyone and their momma will use this set and most likely nb and necro will remain in their overlord status

This could be solved by changing War Machine and Master Architect. Instead of a flat 10s of Major Slayer, they could give 1s of Major Slayer for each 7 points of ultimate spent. For ultimates that cost 70 this would still give 10s. It would be more forgiving if you forget to cast it right at 70, and give 14s if you hold ultimate to 100. And it opens up all classes to be able to use these HoF Slayer sets, like StamDK could drop a standard with 35s of Major Slayer.

Some of these durations sound high, but the % uptime would remain the same as Nightblades, Wardens and Templar’s can achieve currently, it just allows more choices of ultimate abilities. That being said I wouldn’t be opposed to 1s of Major Slayer per 10 points of ultimate spent, so a Soul Harvest would give 7s and an Elemental Rage would give 25s.

xMovingTarget · May 2019

I like lokke. You are less dependant on a fixed gear set meta. And the WM buffb*tch always complains.
It is a really good set. Helps in random dungeon runs and pug raids too. Also a very good body set instead of rele in more mobile fights.
I don't see anything wrong with it.
Also as said in here, it opens the nightblade meta for more variety. I dont want to see and play nightblades no more for a long time.
War machine contributed heavily to that.

T3hasiangod · May 2019

I should also mention here that I held off on including Major Vuln from stamina necromancers since I was anticipating changes to Major Vuln or to stamina necromancers in general. I'll probably revisit this in 5.0.4 once they complete their balance passes on necromancer.

The intention is to take a look at 3x WM from Nightblades and 5x AY (not sure if AY is going to be best due to the passive execute passive) from Necromancers and compare to 8x Necromancers running Lokkestiiz.

ATreeGnome · May 2019

I'm getting pretty annoyed with the obsolescence of stamina buff sets. They add build diversity and often encourage fun deviation from standard rotations. I think Lokkestiiz is a boring set and reduces the potential for builds that are fun but still work in the meta. I would like to see it changed.

lassitershawn · May 2019

xMovingTarget wrote: »

I like lokke. You are less dependant on a fixed gear set meta. And the WM buffb*tch always complains.
It is a really good set. Helps in random dungeon runs and pug raids too. Also a very good body set instead of rele in more mobile fights.
I don't see anything wrong with it.
Also as said in here, it opens the nightblade meta for more variety. I dont want to see and play nightblades no more for a long time.
War machine contributed heavily to that.

LiquidPony wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I believe they wanted to make groups less reliant on low ulti classes like plars and nbs that keep nice uptime on majot slayer with war machine. However, this wont work, everyone and their momma will use this set and most likely nb and necro will remain in their overlord status

Don't agree with the diagnosis as it pertains to Nightblades here.

In fact, the existing WM/AY strategy is a part of why we have a Nightblade meta. The 3 WM stack meta means you want 3 stamblades or stamdens (since stamplars are booty). AY gives a larger benefit to classes with built-in crit damage modifiers (meaning Nightblades, again, since stamplars are booty). AY is also useless on a stamnecro for 25% of the fight. I mean sure there are many other, and larger, reasons that stamblades have been dominating PvE for so long but the gear meta plays a part.

Throwing the WM/AY setups out and switching to Tooth of Lokke is going to help move us away from the 8 stamblade meta IMO.

While it is true that you "have" to be a NB for Major Slayer via WM (I guess you could be a stamden or a stamplar too), I don't see this is the reason NBs are dominant in the meta. If another class(es) were stronger at full DPS, you would see 5 of them and 3 WM NBs. In fact, making WM a necessity helps ensure that the meta isn't pushed into another "8 of the exact same spec" scenario with 8 necromancers running Lokkestiiz. And this is entirely possible because necromancer is looking very strong and scales very poorly with the crit sets (AY) used on full DPS because of their execute passive. I also believe that the gameplay WM brings is interesting and increasing group coordination between DPS is a good thing.

I believe they should make Lokkestiiz a set that IS BiS for full DPS, but does not achieve this via the Major Slayer buff.

Masel · May 2019

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Gone are the days of stam coordinating their sets and bringing something to the group. First they got rid of NMG, Sunder etc, rip to those good ol days.
Next they make the only viable single target sets come from jewelry transmuting and Cloudrest (to sell Summerset).
Now that Morrowind is base game they dont need to sell it with the WM/MA incentive.
Now they need to sell the new chapter and what better way than to make the meta dps set only available from there.
Goodbye group set coodination, hello everyone wearing the exact same setup.

I have expressed my disappointment on the NMG and Sunder changes various times. These were done to balance stamina out against magicka dps because stamina could reach a higher penetration level than magicka builds easily in groups, at least that was the reasoning we were given. I dont agree with it, but I guess we have to accept it.

Sets that bring group utility are generally splitting players up. There are players who like contributing to the group, and there's players who get annoyed by being the "buffbitch" because their dps is lower...