2 Hander is now viable in PVE?

hedna123b14_ESO · April 2019

[removed quote]

I can guarantee you that if I dont run with my group and another person takes my place, with the same conditions of alkosh and all the other debuffs, the numbers will be totally different. Individual skill more than any debuffs is the ultimate deciding factor when looking at dps.

Elwendryll · April 2019

Smasherx74 wrote: »

look, 2 hands. Can we finally stop using the duel wield / bow meta?

I personally have been doing vet trials with 2h/Bow for months now.

starkerealm · April 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if I dont run with my group and another person takes my place, with the same conditions of alkosh and all the other debuffs, the numbers will be totally different. Individual skill more than any debuffs is the ultimate deciding factor when looking at dps.

So, your practice as a DPS determines how skilled your tank is with managing the synergies provided to them by the healer?

Your tank's ability to use crusher is determined solely by your skill as a DPS?

Your healer's ability to maintain combat prayer is a result of your skill as a DPS?

You earned the DPS you earned. They elevated you. And now you're saying you, "earned," their help. Which brings us back to that original comment: someone tells you that they can pull 80k, they're either messing with you, or deceiving themselves.

starkerealm · April 2019

Elwendryll wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

look, 2 hands. Can we finally stop using the duel wield / bow meta?

I personally have been doing vet trials with 2h/Bow for months now.

Years in my case.

Let's put something on the table for reference: "Meta" does not mean what you (probably) think it does.

Meta is not "Most Efficient/Effective Tactic Available." That's a backronym. Presumably, someone, somewhere, asked, "what's meta mean?" And that was the answer they were given by a blubbering idiot.

Meta comes from Metagaming. It's the game, outside of, the game. It's making your decisions based on how the players of the game behave.

Meta just means, "this is what people use." Not, "this is the best," not, "this is good," just, "this is how other people choose to approach the game."

Elwendryll · April 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

look, 2 hands. Can we finally stop using the duel wield / bow meta?

I personally have been doing vet trials with 2h/Bow for months now.

Years in my case.

Let's put something on the table for reference: "Meta" does not mean what you (probably) think it does.

That's awesome, 2H is just so cool and I'm happy to hear that other players have been using it.

Just in case the rest of the message was also meant for me, I know that. And in the context of this thread, well. The meta is DW/Bow, and we can't just expect people to change their playstyle just for diversity's sake. So, well, if the OP wants to play 2H, just play 2H...

hedna123b14_ESO · April 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if I dont run with my group and another person takes my place, with the same conditions of alkosh and all the other debuffs, the numbers will be totally different. Individual skill more than any debuffs is the ultimate deciding factor when looking at dps.

So, your practice as a DPS determines how skilled your tank is with managing the synergies provided to them by the healer?

Your tank's ability to use crusher is determined solely by your skill as a DPS?

Your healer's ability to maintain combat prayer is a result of your skill as a DPS?

You earned the DPS you earned. They elevated you. And now you're saying you, "earned," their help. Which brings us back to that original comment: someone tells you that they can pull 80k, they're either messing with you, or deceiving themselves.

I'm not sure if you're trolling, because it sure seems like it. What you're saying is akin to:"You can never call any accomplishments your own because you relied on other people to get there" but if we use that definition then no accomplishment ever achieved is ever truly anyones own because every individual's action are in many ways a culmination of a group effort. Using that logic I can claim that the worker who helped manufacture your mode of Transportation that you used to get to work helped secure your job...its a ridiculous way to look at things.

That being said good troll if it's a troll, insanity if you actually mean it...

DjMuscleboy02 · April 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if I dont run with my group and another person takes my place, with the same conditions of alkosh and all the other debuffs, the numbers will be totally different. Individual skill more than any debuffs is the ultimate deciding factor when looking at dps.

Can confirm if anyone else took his place the numbers would be even higher

muh · April 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if I dont run with my group and another person takes my place, with the same conditions of alkosh and all the other debuffs, the numbers will be totally different. Individual skill more than any debuffs is the ultimate deciding factor when looking at dps.

So, your practice as a DPS determines how skilled your tank is with managing the synergies provided to them by the healer?

Your tank's ability to use crusher is determined solely by your skill as a DPS?

Your healer's ability to maintain combat prayer is a result of your skill as a DPS?

You earned the DPS you earned. They elevated you. And now you're saying you, "earned," their help. Which brings us back to that original comment: someone tells you that they can pull 80k, they're either messing with you, or deceiving themselves.

Why don't you just log on the PTS (when it's up), whip out a "Meta" setup and get the same result as e.g. @hedna123b14_ESO .
By your logic you should automagically get similar results, because the dummy elevated your skill somehow.

If you do, well afaik you've been around for quite some time and you've probably earned it with experience. If not, stop talking nonsense.

I know I do not hit the same numbers as hedna123b14_ESO in their PTS videos. But I've returned to ESO just like... 2 month ago. There are so many mistakes I make without even knowing them. Lot's of practice ahead of me, lots of subtle "oh ***, I've done it wrong all this time" moments.

What people like Asian, or hedna, or pretty much everyone in any of the leaderboard pushing guilds pull off is impressive. The time they spent to provide learning material for the broader community is admirable... What's your contribution to the community outside of being toxic on the forums @starkerealm ?

hedna123b14_ESO · April 2019

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if I dont run with my group and another person takes my place, with the same conditions of alkosh and all the other debuffs, the numbers will be totally different. Individual skill more than any debuffs is the ultimate deciding factor when looking at dps.

Can confirm if anyone else took his place the numbers would be even higher

I hate you DJ

starkerealm · April 2019

muh wrote: »

What people like Asian, or hedna, or pretty much everyone in any of the leaderboard pushing guilds pull off is impressive.

You should apologize to @hedna123b14_ESO for that. He is actually skilled at the game.

muh wrote: »

What's your contribution to the community outside of being toxic on the forums @starkerealm ?

This feels like a question you could have started addressing by reading my signature.

T3hasiangod · April 2019

muh wrote: »

What people like Asian, or hedna, or pretty much everyone in any of the leaderboard pushing guilds pull off is impressive. The time they spent to provide learning material for the broader community is admirable... What's your contribution to the community outside of being toxic on the forums @starkerealm ?

I can confirm that I am not in a leaderboard pushing guild. Nos, DJ, Liko, and those individuals blow me out of the water when it comes to DPS.

starkerealm · April 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're trolling, because it sure seems like it.

A little bit of neither. Like I said, your team's to be commended for their work, and, yes, that does include you. Something about calling it the DPS you, "earned," rubs me the wrong way. There are a lot of egocentric DPS out there, who do really view the other members of their team as accessories, rather than the reason they're able to do what they do.

EDIT: to be clear, I don't mean you are one of those players, but, like I said, it rubbed me the wrong way at the time.

hedna123b14_ESO · April 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're trolling, because it sure seems like it.

A little bit of neither. Like I said, your team's to be commended for their work, and, yes, that does include you. Something about calling it the DPS you, "earned," rubs me the wrong way. There are a lot of egocentric DPS out there, who do really view the other members of their team as accessories, rather than the reason they're able to do what they do.

EDIT: to be clear, I don't mean you are one of those players, but, like I said, it rubbed me the wrong way at the time.

Oh I see what you mean. I think after playing this game for so long I definitely recognize that the most important players in the group are support. Good dps are easy to find...good support capable of adjusting, doing multiple roles and quick thinking are extremely difficult to find...good support is the reason why the best guilds are the best, but it is DEFINITELY a team effort. Individual effort is important though.

starkerealm · April 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're trolling, because it sure seems like it.

A little bit of neither. Like I said, your team's to be commended for their work, and, yes, that does include you. Something about calling it the DPS you, "earned," rubs me the wrong way. There are a lot of egocentric DPS out there, who do really view the other members of their team as accessories, rather than the reason they're able to do what they do.

EDIT: to be clear, I don't mean you are one of those players, but, like I said, it rubbed me the wrong way at the time.

Oh I see what you mean. I think after playing this game for so long I definitely recognize that the most important players in the group are support. Good dps are easy to find...good support capable of adjusting, doing multiple roles and quick thinking are extremely difficult to find...good support is the reason why the best guilds are the best, but it is DEFINITELY a team effort. Individual effort is important though.

Yep, agreed. Also, for what it's worth, I was pugging pledges last night on my tanks, which didn't have me in the best state of mind. To be fair, I only saw two S&B DPS, and one frost staff. But, it did remind me why I normally avoid the groupfinder like the plague. You didn't deserve to be on the receiving end of that.

xMovingTarget · April 2019

Asmael wrote: »

After trying several different setups - inclipconfig /flushdnsuding a 2h / bow build with Leviathan / Relequen, Master 2H and VMA bow on PTS, you can definitely try it out in raid. The new Carve is finally a good ability and combined with the master 2h makes for some juicy AoE capabilities (althought you do lose quite a bit of damage if you pick the Brawler morph for single target fights).

The fact that DW has daggers does weight quite a bit in this however, since 10% critical chance beats the 6% damage increase in pretty much all PvE scenarios.

hedna123b14_ESO · April 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're trolling, because it sure seems like it.

A little bit of neither. Like I said, your team's to be commended for their work, and, yes, that does include you. Something about calling it the DPS you, "earned," rubs me the wrong way. There are a lot of egocentric DPS out there, who do really view the other members of their team as accessories, rather than the reason they're able to do what they do.

EDIT: to be clear, I don't mean you are one of those players, but, like I said, it rubbed me the wrong way at the time.

Oh I see what you mean. I think after playing this game for so long I definitely recognize that the most important players in the group are support. Good dps are easy to find...good support capable of adjusting, doing multiple roles and quick thinking are extremely difficult to find...good support is the reason why the best guilds are the best, but it is DEFINITELY a team effort. Individual effort is important though.

Yep, agreed. Also, for what it's worth, I was pugging pledges last night on my tanks, which didn't have me in the best state of mind. To be fair, I only saw two S&B DPS, and one frost staff. But, it did remind me why I normally avoid the groupfinder like the plague. You didn't deserve to be on the receiving end of that.

Lol

Izaki · April 2019

Asmael wrote: »

After trying several different setups - including a 2h / bow build with Leviathan / Relequen, Master 2H and VMA bow on PTS, you can definitely try it out in raid. The new Carve is finally a good ability and combined with the master 2h makes for some juicy AoE capabilities (althought you do lose quite a bit of damage if you pick the Brawler morph for single target fights).

The fact that DW has daggers does weight quite a bit in this however, since 10% critical chance beats the 6% damage increase in pretty much all PvE scenarios.

Why not Yokeda?

starkerealm · April 2019

Izaki wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

After trying several different setups - including a 2h / bow build with Leviathan / Relequen, Master 2H and VMA bow on PTS, you can definitely try it out in raid. The new Carve is finally a good ability and combined with the master 2h makes for some juicy AoE capabilities (althought you do lose quite a bit of damage if you pick the Brawler morph for single target fights).

The fact that DW has daggers does weight quite a bit in this however, since 10% critical chance beats the 6% damage increase in pretty much all PvE scenarios.

Why not Yokeda?

So, Leviathan is 3590 Weapon Crit and 1096 Max Stam.

Advancing Yokeda is 1666 Weapon Crit and 129 Weapon Damage, with another 2k Weapon Crit (3666) on a spin up effect (though this can spin up very quickly.)

So, you can have the buff persistently, or you can get 76 weapon crit and chain yourself to melee, even on your bow.

Also, if you're running 2 5pc bonuses, AND a Ability Altering Melee Weapon, you really can't run Advancing without giving up your monster set, at which point you're stuck with a 5/2/0 loadout, as you'd need to give up two body slots to Advancing.

So, yeah, basically not an option. In most cases, I'd even say, "just run Levi over Advancing anyway." Advancing is marginally better, but it requires more work to maintain, limits your options, and is harder to acquire.

lassitershawn · April 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

After trying several different setups - including a 2h / bow build with Leviathan / Relequen, Master 2H and VMA bow on PTS, you can definitely try it out in raid. The new Carve is finally a good ability and combined with the master 2h makes for some juicy AoE capabilities (althought you do lose quite a bit of damage if you pick the Brawler morph for single target fights).

The fact that DW has daggers does weight quite a bit in this however, since 10% critical chance beats the 6% damage increase in pretty much all PvE scenarios.

Why not Yokeda?

So, Leviathan is 3590 Weapon Crit and 1096 Max Stam.

Advancing Yokeda is 1666 Weapon Crit and 129 Weapon Damage, with another 2k Weapon Crit (3666) on a spin up effect (though this can spin up very quickly.)

So, you can have the buff persistently, or you can get 76 weapon crit and chain yourself to melee, even on your bow.

Also, if you're running 2 5pc bonuses, AND a Ability Altering Melee Weapon, you really can't run Advancing without giving up your monster set, at which point you're stuck with a 5/2/0 loadout, as you'd need to give up two body slots to Advancing.

So, yeah, basically not an option. In most cases, I'd even say, "just run Levi over Advancing anyway." Advancing is marginally better, but it requires more work to maintain, limits your options, and is harder to acquire.

I main magicka DPS but I'm pretty much 100% certain nobody runs ability altering melee weapons anymore outside of very niche scenarios... In any event if you were running such a weapon ANY 5pc set in place of yokeda would still lock you out of a monster set... Furthermore, you ignore the advantage yokeda has in carrying over to your back bar. You get the benefit of the 5pc when you swap bars because the crit comes from a buff applied to yourself even if you swap bars rather than the buff being strictly attached to a set bonus. This is the same logic behind running sets like SS or BSW as front-barred sets.

starkerealm · April 2019

lassitershawn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

After trying several different setups - including a 2h / bow build with Leviathan / Relequen, Master 2H and VMA bow on PTS, you can definitely try it out in raid. The new Carve is finally a good ability and combined with the master 2h makes for some juicy AoE capabilities (althought you do lose quite a bit of damage if you pick the Brawler morph for single target fights).

The fact that DW has daggers does weight quite a bit in this however, since 10% critical chance beats the 6% damage increase in pretty much all PvE scenarios.

Why not Yokeda?

So, Leviathan is 3590 Weapon Crit and 1096 Max Stam.

Advancing Yokeda is 1666 Weapon Crit and 129 Weapon Damage, with another 2k Weapon Crit (3666) on a spin up effect (though this can spin up very quickly.)

So, you can have the buff persistently, or you can get 76 weapon crit and chain yourself to melee, even on your bow.

Also, if you're running 2 5pc bonuses, AND a Ability Altering Melee Weapon, you really can't run Advancing without giving up your monster set, at which point you're stuck with a 5/2/0 loadout, as you'd need to give up two body slots to Advancing.

So, yeah, basically not an option. In most cases, I'd even say, "just run Levi over Advancing anyway." Advancing is marginally better, but it requires more work to maintain, limits your options, and is harder to acquire.

I main magicka DPS but I'm pretty much 100% certain nobody runs ability altering melee weapons anymore outside of very niche scenarios... In any event if you were running such a weapon ANY 5pc set in place of yokeda would still lock you out of a monster set... Furthermore, you ignore the advantage yokeda has in carrying over to your back bar. You get the benefit of the 5pc when you swap bars because the crit comes from a buff applied to yourself even if you swap bars rather than the buff being strictly attached to a set bonus. This is the same logic behind running sets like SS or BSW as front-barred sets.

Yeah, I know. The specific example given by @Asmael was Master 2h, Maelstrom Bow, Rele, Levi. In that specific context, why not AY? Because you can't.

muh · April 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

muh wrote: »

What people like Asian, or hedna, or pretty much everyone in any of the leaderboard pushing guilds pull off is impressive. The time they spent to provide learning material for the broader community is admirable... What's your contribution to the community outside of being toxic on the forums @starkerealm ?

I can confirm that I am not in a leaderboard pushing guild. Nos, DJ, Liko, and those individuals blow me out of the water when it comes to DPS.

I know, I wasn't only talking about DPS, but raiding on a high level in general.

starkerealm wrote: »

muh wrote: »

What people like Asian, or hedna, or pretty much everyone in any of the leaderboard pushing guilds pull off is impressive.

You should apologize to @hedna123b14_ESO for that. He is actually skilled at the game.

muh wrote: »

What's your contribution to the community outside of being toxic on the forums @starkerealm ?

This feels like a question you could have started addressing by reading my signature.

Oh don't you worry, I've seen it. Which makes your behaviour even more disturbing.

Asian on multiple occasions mentions that he is primarily *(off-)tank for his guilds. I wouldn't expect him to dps on the same level as a main dps. Why should he? But yet you're jumping on every opportunity to talk everything he does bad and attack him personally...? Why?
This is what rubs me the wrong way. You want people to take your opinions in your podcast seriously, but you yourself place your opinion above those of others?

About your signature.
That's probably just my take on the matter, but podcasts are a horrible medium to provide information to returning/new players. They're all over the place, and usually way to long. They're audio only and some topics would be better served with a more hands on approach.
But as long as you have fun doing them, more power to you. The dev interviews are nice though.

starkerealm · April 2019

EDIT: Meh, nevermind.

Goregrinder · April 2019

That's for Elswyr which isn't live yet, and he specifies that the 2h build he tried is for Stam Sorc. He says you CAN do it on other classes, but for those other classes DW will still be the better DPS option currently in 5.0. This could change in a week or two, but basically 2H LOOKS like it could be viable for PVE on a Stam Sorc if those changes go live in a month.

StormeReigns · April 2019

Dual Wield

Vs

2 Handed

Dont be prey'ed into thinking being a Milhouse is cool cause interwebz said so.

Runkorko · April 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

2h bow does solid damage but it's not gonna out parse Dw bow.

That youtuber just shows an option for those who want to use a 2h build, esp for stam classes that lack an execute aka stam sorc, stam dk, and stam warden, stamplar. It's honestly really sad that stamblade is the only stam class with a class execute

So if you're talking about the most dmg, then no, you wouldn't use a 2h build

Depend.
On min/maxer hand yes, i agree with you.
One thing i dont like in all those build videos/ they dps static target/ they NEVER link their real raid dps

All you need is 30k dps. To compleat all the vet content. Its easy to achieve with any wep so yes, imo play what you like more.

mikemacon · May 2019

It’s always been “viable”.

max_only · May 2019

Grianasteri wrote: »

I have a 2H build that I use almost exclusively for PVE content. It has the joint highest DPS of my 10 characters.

2H is fantastic for PVE, dealing with adds is a delight, dealing with single target enemy is a delight. Thats why I use the character, its great fun and it works.

Post your build.

I use 2h on my stamplar while solo for the flavor only but it doesn’t kill as fast as my other stam characters.

Runefang · May 2019

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

2h bow does solid damage but it's not gonna out parse Dw bow.

That youtuber just shows an option for those who want to use a 2h build, esp for stam classes that lack an execute aka stam sorc, stam dk, and stam warden, stamplar. It's honestly really sad that stamblade is the only stam class with a class execute

So if you're talking about the most dmg, then no, you wouldn't use a 2h build

Depend.
On min/maxer hand yes, i agree with you.
One thing i dont like in all those build videos/ they dps static target/ they NEVER link their real raid dps
All you need is 30k dps. To compleat all the vet content. Its easy to achieve with any wep so yes, imo play what you like more.

I always wonder if the people who say 30k dps is enough to complete all vet content have actually done so with 30k.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2019

Runefang wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

2h bow does solid damage but it's not gonna out parse Dw bow.

That youtuber just shows an option for those who want to use a 2h build, esp for stam classes that lack an execute aka stam sorc, stam dk, and stam warden, stamplar. It's honestly really sad that stamblade is the only stam class with a class execute

So if you're talking about the most dmg, then no, you wouldn't use a 2h build

Depend.
On min/maxer hand yes, i agree with you.
One thing i dont like in all those build videos/ they dps static target/ they NEVER link their real raid dps
All you need is 30k dps. To compleat all the vet content. Its easy to achieve with any wep so yes, imo play what you like more.

I always wonder if the people who say 30k dps is enough to complete all vet content have actually done so with 30k.

I feel like the statement "30k dps is enough to complete all vet content" is analogous to "4 inches is no big deal, it's how you use it"

AlienatedGoat · May 2019

Runefang wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

2h bow does solid damage but it's not gonna out parse Dw bow.

That youtuber just shows an option for those who want to use a 2h build, esp for stam classes that lack an execute aka stam sorc, stam dk, and stam warden, stamplar. It's honestly really sad that stamblade is the only stam class with a class execute

So if you're talking about the most dmg, then no, you wouldn't use a 2h build

Depend.
On min/maxer hand yes, i agree with you.
One thing i dont like in all those build videos/ they dps static target/ they NEVER link their real raid dps
All you need is 30k dps. To compleat all the vet content. Its easy to achieve with any wep so yes, imo play what you like more.

I always wonder if the people who say 30k dps is enough to complete all vet content have actually done so with 30k.

30k DPS self-buffed on a target dummy doesn't translate to 30k DPS in a live run - if you're optimally raid-buffed and can stick the rotation, your DPS will be much higher in a live run.

You can definitely do all vet content with 30k self-buffed DPS, even HM if your mech execution is on point. You just have to work harder for it and you won't get any top scores on the leaderboards, but that doesn't really matter since you're probably in a progression group anyway. But it can be done.