Maintenance for the week of October 13:
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· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – October 15, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
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· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – October 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – October 15, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – October 15, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
ESO Logs consent is not GDPR Compliant. Very promising.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
No, we are going to leave that to this badly implemented tool, which allows someone else to secretly record your activities and post them to an external server for them to bait, hate on and humiliate there.
In .001% of cases maybe
Meanwhile the overwhelming 99.999% of usage will be for self or group improvement
No one cares enough to record every stupid pug run on the off chance someone will be bad enough to warrant more than an offhanded comment to their buddy later about the mess of a dungeon run. They won’t even remember your character name, much less your account name.
Get over your bloated sense of self-importance and throw your paranoia in the garbage
I wish I could agree with you. But sadly I don't.
I expect there will be countless websites, posts and videos made devoted entirely to analyzing the logs of players they encounter during pugs so they can make fun of them online. Even among guilds I believe they will become contentious. But I could be wrong. We'll see. ^^
Ok dude, maybe you missed it, but recording a log requires you decide to do so and start it beforehand. Nothing is automatically logged. These logs do not show account names, only character names. These logs will only apply numbers to what is already observable.
Obviously someone can tell if they’re the only one with good dps. They can see if there’s any orbs or shards being provided. They can see if the tank is taunting the boss or letting it run free. They can see if mobs are dying or if they’re not.
If someone gets reamed over a bad performance, it’s not gonna be this tool that caused it. ESO character names floating in the void of the internet are no more dangerous than a neopets pet name of yesteryear.
If a guild competes amongst themselves and points out weak points, that is intended and beneficial so people can actually improve.
Does it? I was under the impression the log is turned on by default.
Whether someone can tell if someone is a good dps or not isn't really the issue. You made the claim these logs weren't going to be used to berate and humiliate others. I believe they will be. I never claimed they were "dangerous" so I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment.Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2019 9:47AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »the amount of people not understanding EU law is......
...pretty much everyone.
This shouldn't matter because the responsibility of the GDPR falls squarely on the collectors and controllers of the personal data themselves - which in this case would be ZoS because they are the ones collecting this data and making it available to 3rd party websites. The GDPR is pretty specific here and states clearly these protections still apply even if the data is being shared with 3rd parties outside of the EEA (European Economic Area).
You're right that the legal recourse would be through ZoS. But I don't really see how that affects the overall debate.
It should be interesting how this plays out from a GDPR perspective.
I'm skeptical that character names on a video game will be interpreted as personal data. The question becomes less obvious to me when it's the account name in question or the person's in-game activities. It's an interesting debate in any case as you say. Ultimately someone over there in Europe is going to have to decide what constitutes personal data and what doesn't. That's why I've said from the beginning that's really what the crux of this debate is all about.
I would say that our user names do qualify, because they are linked to an email and in most cases bank accounts, whether they are located easily or not that is not the point. Also our usernames are Unique, no one can have the same one, same with character names, although they can be changed does not mean that they are not tied to our personal information. Also if you are playing with people that you know who says that in chat during a dungeon they don't use your real name or other real information? We are not always smart about separating our personal lives and game lives, also what if they link a discord, teamspeak, or facebook page that does have your information?
I'm not sure what you mean when you say user names. The reason I am skeptical that character names would apply is because those are names of fictional characters on a video game. They aren't your personal names. For example: could ZoS be sued if someone on the EU server is streaming a live game session because it shows the names of other people's characters on the screen for everyone on the channel to see without their explicit permission? I doubt it. Your argument they could be used to track down your personal information therefore constitute personal data is creative. But I'm skeptical a Judge would buy it.
Now if by user name you mean your account name/user ID that's different. I believe a reasonable argument could be made that's personal information - since it's directly tied to your personal account and could be used to aid someone in hacking into your information. I always thought it was a mistake for ZoS to make account names so visible during the game play.
As to your question: I would imagine that would depend on whether or not the linked page contained any personal data or not. Like I've been saying through-out this debate, this all boils down to what is considered personal data and what isn't.
In this game, the character and account names on a particular server are unique to you. No one else has the same account name on the platform you are on. No one on the server has the same character name. Both can be changed, but they don't change without some sort of action on the part of the player. This makes them a risk for being personal data. They fall under the definition of "online identifier".
The real key here seems to be whether the character and account name meet the definition of anonymous.
I get that. But how would someone identify you personally by viewing your character name on a video game?
There is a difference in personal data and then character data.0 -
essi2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5978892/#Comment_5978892
Currently the Logger does not default to Anonymous, and as such is recording not only your @name, but the @name of everyone in proximity to the person logging. Being in a group with the person logging is not required for the logger to record you."The Heritance are racists yes? Idiots. But dangerous, destabilizing racist idiots." - Razum-dar
"Wood Elves aren't made of wood, Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves" - M'aiq the Liar
** Leyawiin Layabouts (PC-EU) - Leyawiin Layabouts (PC-NA) **
*** https://www.youtube.com/@essi2 - https://www.twitch.tv/essi2 ***2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
No, we are going to leave that to this badly implemented tool, which allows someone else to secretly record your activities and post them to an external server for them to bait, hate on and humiliate there.
In .001% of cases maybe
Meanwhile the overwhelming 99.999% of usage will be for self or group improvement
No one cares enough to record every stupid pug run on the off chance someone will be bad enough to warrant more than an offhanded comment to their buddy later about the mess of a dungeon run. They won’t even remember your character name, much less your account name.
Get over your bloated sense of self-importance and throw your paranoia in the garbage
I wish I could agree with you. But sadly I don't.
I expect there will be countless websites, posts and videos made devoted entirely to analyzing the logs of players they encounter during pugs so they can make fun of them online. Even among guilds I believe they will become contentious. But I could be wrong. We'll see. ^^
Ok dude, maybe you missed it, but recording a log requires you decide to do so and start it beforehand. Nothing is automatically logged. These logs do not show account names, only character names. These logs will only apply numbers to what is already observable.
Obviously someone can tell if they’re the only one with good dps. They can see if there’s any orbs or shards being provided. They can see if the tank is taunting the boss or letting it run free. They can see if mobs are dying or if they’re not.
If someone gets reamed over a bad performance, it’s not gonna be this tool that caused it. ESO character names floating in the void of the internet are no more dangerous than a neopets pet name of yesteryear.
If a guild competes amongst themselves and points out weak points, that is intended and beneficial so people can actually improve.
Does it? I was under the impression the log is turned on by default.
Whether someone can tell if someone is a good dps or not isn't really the issue. You made the claim these logs weren't going to be used to berate and humiliate others. I believe they will be. I never claimed they were "dangerous" so I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment.
The creation of logs only occurs when someone starts recording one.ESOLogs Forum Thread
To start an encounter log, enter "/encounterlog" into chat (without the quotes). Once you're finished, you can type "/encounterlog" a second time to disable logging. You'll see a system message each time letting you know if you've started logging or stopped it. You will need an account on https://www.esologs.com/ and the uploader available there to view your group's logs.
This is not an inbuilt feature of the game system. It will not be feeding information left right and center even for those who do use the tool. It requires an account, and it requires a program to view the logs in a coherent way.
People on the whole do not care enough to go through that much effort just to collect name and shame material. They aren’t gonna start up logs at every pug, they’re not gonna upload every bad run for the lols, they’re not gonna blast it to the wind as if their run was anything special on a scale of pugs. Maybe 2 or 3 cases of abusing this tool will pop up, if that.
For all intents and purposes, it’s a nonissue2 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭witchdoctor wrote: »The comment above that the hypothetically-aggrieved EU citizen has to seek their redress through ZOS is interesting.
Can they? If so, how?
My random not-in-the-shower train of thought:- ESO is an online service
- As an online service, it evolves
- ZOS adds a functionality to allow combat logging
- ZOS makes the users of its service aware of its new functionality
- EU player actively logs into the service
There may be a distinction between the collection of cookies and private data by your coming to Ferrari's website, and you actively logging into an online service which has made you aware that other users can log certain in-game data.
Meaning, your GDPR 'protection' is, 'do not use my service.'
Not at all. "my" GDPR protection is that I can disable all data gathering by Ferrari's site and continue to use the service, if I do not do that I have consented to the data gathering if I continue using the site. I can still go into the data collecting setting (Cookie Policy) and turn them off/disable them at any time even after I first "consented" to it by continuing to use the site without checking the settings of the cookies (you can opt out and withdraw your "consent" at any time), if I can't it isn't GDPR compliant.Edited by Idinuse on April 18, 2019 11:00PMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
No, we are going to leave that to this badly implemented tool, which allows someone else to secretly record your activities and post them to an external server for them to bait, hate on and humiliate there.
In .001% of cases maybe
Meanwhile the overwhelming 99.999% of usage will be for self or group improvement
No one cares enough to record every stupid pug run on the off chance someone will be bad enough to warrant more than an offhanded comment to their buddy later about the mess of a dungeon run. They won’t even remember your character name, much less your account name.
Get over your bloated sense of self-importance and throw your paranoia in the garbage
I wish I could agree with you. But sadly I don't.
I expect there will be countless websites, posts and videos made devoted entirely to analyzing the logs of players they encounter during pugs so they can make fun of them online. Even among guilds I believe they will become contentious. But I could be wrong. We'll see. ^^
Ok dude, maybe you missed it, but recording a log requires you decide to do so and start it beforehand. Nothing is automatically logged. These logs do not show account names, only character names. These logs will only apply numbers to what is already observable.
Obviously someone can tell if they’re the only one with good dps. They can see if there’s any orbs or shards being provided. They can see if the tank is taunting the boss or letting it run free. They can see if mobs are dying or if they’re not.
If someone gets reamed over a bad performance, it’s not gonna be this tool that caused it. ESO character names floating in the void of the internet are no more dangerous than a neopets pet name of yesteryear.
If a guild competes amongst themselves and points out weak points, that is intended and beneficial so people can actually improve.
Does it? I was under the impression the log is turned on by default.
Whether someone can tell if someone is a good dps or not isn't really the issue. You made the claim these logs weren't going to be used to berate and humiliate others. I believe they will be. I never claimed they were "dangerous" so I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment.
The creation of logs only occurs when someone starts recording one.ESOLogs Forum Thread
To start an encounter log, enter "/encounterlog" into chat (without the quotes). Once you're finished, you can type "/encounterlog" a second time to disable logging. You'll see a system message each time letting you know if you've started logging or stopped it. You will need an account on https://www.esologs.com/ and the uploader available there to view your group's logs.
This is not an inbuilt feature of the game system. It will not be feeding information left right and center even for those who do use the tool. It requires an account, and it requires a program to view the logs in a coherent way.
People on the whole do not care enough to go through that much effort just to collect name and shame material. They aren’t gonna start up logs at every pug, they’re not gonna upload every bad run for the lols, they’re not gonna blast it to the wind as if their run was anything special on a scale of pugs. Maybe 2 or 3 cases of abusing this tool will pop up, if that.
For all intents and purposes, it’s a nonissue
But when someone records a log it records everyone around them. So people can be recorded without starting it beforehand.
You say people on the whole do not care. But I don't know why you think that. Almost every time I pug on this game I encounter people who care about how others play and who go out of their way to comment about it or make fun of other people's DPS. Having a log they can record only gives them another tool in which to do that with. So I don't know why you think people aren't going to care about it or use it.
I can already promise you people are going to load that log up when they pug and then comment about what they see going on in that log. And 9 out of 10 times those comments aren't going to be kind. I also expect them to be used in screen shots as well to humiliate others and to stress how terrible they believe their rotations are.Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2019 10:20AM5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭witchdoctor wrote: »The comment above that the hypothetically-aggrieved EU citizen has to seek their redress through ZOS is interesting.
Can they? If so, how?
My random not-in-the-shower train of thought:- ESO is an online service
- As an online service, it evolves
- ZOS adds a functionality to allow combat logging
- ZOS makes the users of its service aware of its new functionality
- EU player actively logs into the service
There may be a distinction between the collection of cookies and private data by your coming to Ferrari's website, and you actively logging into an online service which has made you aware that other users can log certain in-game data.
Meaning, your GDPR 'protection' is, 'do not use my service.'
Not at all. "my" GDPR protection is that I can disable all data gathering by Ferrari's site and continue to use the service if I do not do that I have consented to the data gathering if I continue using the site. I can still go into the data collecting setting (Cookie Policy) and turn them off (if I can't it isn't GDPR compliant).
The GDPR requires that the highest possible privacy settings in regards to personal data be used by default. If this is indeed considered personal data - then allowing 3rd parties access to it unless the person acts to prevent it would mean it's in noncompliance with the GDPR. I don't see how there is any way around that.Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2019 10:17AM4 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
No, we are going to leave that to this badly implemented tool, which allows someone else to secretly record your activities and post them to an external server for them to bait, hate on and humiliate there.
In .001% of cases maybe
Meanwhile the overwhelming 99.999% of usage will be for self or group improvement
No one cares enough to record every stupid pug run on the off chance someone will be bad enough to warrant more than an offhanded comment to their buddy later about the mess of a dungeon run. They won’t even remember your character name, much less your account name.
Get over your bloated sense of self-importance and throw your paranoia in the garbage
I wish I could agree with you. But sadly I don't.
I expect there will be countless websites, posts and videos made devoted entirely to analyzing the logs of players they encounter during pugs so they can make fun of them online. Even among guilds I believe they will become contentious. But I could be wrong. We'll see. ^^
Ok dude, maybe you missed it, but recording a log requires you decide to do so and start it beforehand. Nothing is automatically logged. These logs do not show account names, only character names. These logs will only apply numbers to what is already observable.
Obviously someone can tell if they’re the only one with good dps. They can see if there’s any orbs or shards being provided. They can see if the tank is taunting the boss or letting it run free. They can see if mobs are dying or if they’re not.
If someone gets reamed over a bad performance, it’s not gonna be this tool that caused it. ESO character names floating in the void of the internet are no more dangerous than a neopets pet name of yesteryear.
If a guild competes amongst themselves and points out weak points, that is intended and beneficial so people can actually improve.
Does it? I was under the impression the log is turned on by default.
Whether someone can tell if someone is a good dps or not isn't really the issue. You made the claim these logs weren't going to be used to berate and humiliate others. I believe they will be. I never claimed they were "dangerous" so I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment.
The creation of logs only occurs when someone starts recording one.ESOLogs Forum Thread
To start an encounter log, enter "/encounterlog" into chat (without the quotes). Once you're finished, you can type "/encounterlog" a second time to disable logging. You'll see a system message each time letting you know if you've started logging or stopped it. You will need an account on https://www.esologs.com/ and the uploader available there to view your group's logs.
This is not an inbuilt feature of the game system. It will not be feeding information left right and center even for those who do use the tool. It requires an account, and it requires a program to view the logs in a coherent way.
People on the whole do not care enough to go through that much effort just to collect name and shame material. They aren’t gonna start up logs at every pug, they’re not gonna upload every bad run for the lols, they’re not gonna blast it to the wind as if their run was anything special on a scale of pugs. Maybe 2 or 3 cases of abusing this tool will pop up, if that.
For all intents and purposes, it’s a nonissue
But when someone records a log it records everyone around them. So people can be recorded without starting it beforehand.
You say people on the whole do not care. But I don't know why you think that. Almost every time I pug on this game I encounter people who care about how others play and who go out of their way to comment about it or make fun of other people's DPS. Having a log they can record only gives them another tool in which to do that with. So I don't know why you think people aren't going to care about it or use it.
I can already promise you people are going to load that log up when they pug and then comment about what they see going on in that log. And 9 out of 10 times those comments aren't going to be kind. I also expect them to be used in screen shots as well to humiliate others and to stress how terrible their rotations are.
And here I though I had little faith in people
No, no one is going to be searching up your logs before a pug. It’s not gonna happen. People will always give a damn about your performance because your performance is directly related to how much time they’re stuck in an instance with you, and how pleasant that instance is going to be.
Do you remember the name of the healer in your last pug? I’m guessing you don’t, and it’s gonna be the same with these tools. No one is going to remember you unless you are spectacularly good or spectacularly bad.
And once again, no, logs are not recorded “by default”, whatever you think that means. Someone creates an account, downloads and installs the client for recording, starts an encounter log, ends the encounter log, then that someone has to upload the files, wait for it to process, and then can examine the data.
What’s more ridiculous is your assertion that the average pug is going to be recorded at all, nevermind some random person caring enough about you to go through the whole process for the purpose of spiting underperforming players.
It’s no more strange to have this data recorded (which may I remind you is the norm in the MMO genre) than it is to be able to visibly see another player in combat. I’ve already told you, this tool simply applies numbers to what people are already able to see.Edited by Jhalin on April 18, 2019 10:22AM1 -
MJallday✭✭✭✭✭
✭as i pointed out in a GDPR legal forum last year. your data leaves the planet via a satellite pretty much everytime you use the internet, so it leaving the borders of the EU shouldn't be a problem
GDPR really only concerns itself with personal data. this was further boiled down to "personal identifiable data" during 2018 - or PII as its become known.
The ICO in the UK (which are led by EU directives, ultimately based on a mix of German and UK law) are taking a pragmatic approach. in fact when i talked to the ICO last year on the subject - they dont see the trend of the number of prosecutions increasing. its also being challenged in court - so that outcome is to be decided.
There is also the small matter that GDPR cannot be truly enforced outside of the EMEA/EU. however i know a lot of US companies are changing to comply (facebook is a good example actually, theyve publically said theyll comply) - but the ICO can make enough "noise" about it if needed to force non-EU companies to change.
anyway, the point in this case is - "look at the data which is being transferred - Is it personal identifiable data which has ramifications on an individual ?"
if its just game logs - then no.
if its just usernames - then no.
if it contains real names - then possibly still no - with a caveat. this was an argument during the inception of GDPR actually - what are you going to do, ban all the phone books in the world?) - however it would certainly raise an eyebrow or 2 - theres still not been a legal definition on that - but most companies are taking a pragmatic approach - and yes, that does mean limiting what people do - including changing the "visitors" books on receptions throughout the uk!
however if it contained usernames, realnames and home addresses then possibly yes, you'd be able to argue thats a PII breach - but i doubt GAME logs (which is how ZOS would frame this) would contain this - itll probably be username, an ip address and probably some OS info - which is NOT PII.
however what you'd need to do is look at the content of the logs to see if it constituted a PII breach - but i highly doubt it does. ZOS could just argue its required game functionality - and they'd have quite a tight case tbh.
4 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Not at all. "my" GDPR protection is that I can disable all data gathering by Ferrari's site and continue to use the service if I do not do that I have consented to the data gathering if I continue using the site. I can still go into the data collecting setting (Cookie Policy) and turn them off (if I can't it isn't GDPR compliant).
I do not remain convinced that data created in a video game, whether it is 'identifiable or not,' will fall under this in the first place.
If it did, then I would not be surprised the fact you actively log into an online service - actively, with intent, and with the knowledge this service permits the creation of logs - will differentiate it from a website.Edited by witchdoctor on April 18, 2019 10:38AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
No, we are going to leave that to this badly implemented tool, which allows someone else to secretly record your activities and post them to an external server for them to bait, hate on and humiliate there.
In .001% of cases maybe
Meanwhile the overwhelming 99.999% of usage will be for self or group improvement
No one cares enough to record every stupid pug run on the off chance someone will be bad enough to warrant more than an offhanded comment to their buddy later about the mess of a dungeon run. They won’t even remember your character name, much less your account name.
Get over your bloated sense of self-importance and throw your paranoia in the garbage
I wish I could agree with you. But sadly I don't.
I expect there will be countless websites, posts and videos made devoted entirely to analyzing the logs of players they encounter during pugs so they can make fun of them online. Even among guilds I believe they will become contentious. But I could be wrong. We'll see. ^^
Ok dude, maybe you missed it, but recording a log requires you decide to do so and start it beforehand. Nothing is automatically logged. These logs do not show account names, only character names. These logs will only apply numbers to what is already observable.
Obviously someone can tell if they’re the only one with good dps. They can see if there’s any orbs or shards being provided. They can see if the tank is taunting the boss or letting it run free. They can see if mobs are dying or if they’re not.
If someone gets reamed over a bad performance, it’s not gonna be this tool that caused it. ESO character names floating in the void of the internet are no more dangerous than a neopets pet name of yesteryear.
If a guild competes amongst themselves and points out weak points, that is intended and beneficial so people can actually improve.
Does it? I was under the impression the log is turned on by default.
Whether someone can tell if someone is a good dps or not isn't really the issue. You made the claim these logs weren't going to be used to berate and humiliate others. I believe they will be. I never claimed they were "dangerous" so I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment.
The creation of logs only occurs when someone starts recording one.ESOLogs Forum Thread
To start an encounter log, enter "/encounterlog" into chat (without the quotes). Once you're finished, you can type "/encounterlog" a second time to disable logging. You'll see a system message each time letting you know if you've started logging or stopped it. You will need an account on https://www.esologs.com/ and the uploader available there to view your group's logs.
This is not an inbuilt feature of the game system. It will not be feeding information left right and center even for those who do use the tool. It requires an account, and it requires a program to view the logs in a coherent way.
People on the whole do not care enough to go through that much effort just to collect name and shame material. They aren’t gonna start up logs at every pug, they’re not gonna upload every bad run for the lols, they’re not gonna blast it to the wind as if their run was anything special on a scale of pugs. Maybe 2 or 3 cases of abusing this tool will pop up, if that.
For all intents and purposes, it’s a nonissue
But when someone records a log it records everyone around them. So people can be recorded without starting it beforehand.
You say people on the whole do not care. But I don't know why you think that. Almost every time I pug on this game I encounter people who care about how others play and who go out of their way to comment about it or make fun of other people's DPS. Having a log they can record only gives them another tool in which to do that with. So I don't know why you think people aren't going to care about it or use it.
I can already promise you people are going to load that log up when they pug and then comment about what they see going on in that log. And 9 out of 10 times those comments aren't going to be kind. I also expect them to be used in screen shots as well to humiliate others and to stress how terrible their rotations are.
And here I though I had little faith in people
No, no one is going to be searching up your logs before a pug. It’s not gonna happen. People will always give a damn about your performance because your performance is directly related to how much time they’re stuck in an instance with you, and how pleasant that instance is going to be.
Do you remember the name of the healer in your last pug? I’m guessing you don’t, and it’s gonna be the same with these tools. No one is going to remember you unless you are spectacularly good or spectacularly bad.
And once again, no, logs are not recorded “by default”, whatever you think that means. Someone creates an account, downloads and installs the client for recording, starts an encounter log, ends the encounter log, then that someone has to upload the files, wait for it to process, and then can examine the data.
What’s more ridiculous is your assertion that the average pug is going to be recorded at all, nevermind some random person caring enough about you to go through the whole process for the purpose of spiting underperforming players.
It’s no more strange to have this data recorded (which may I remind you is the norm in the MMO genre) than it is to be able to visibly see another player in combat. I’ve already told you, this tool simply applies numbers to what people are already able to see.
haha, if you say so.
We'll find out soon enough. Because I suspect I'm right and people will be using these "logs" in pugs all the time. If I"m wrong don't worry, I'll be the first to admit it.Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2019 10:39AM3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭as i pointed out in a GDPR legal forum last year. your data leaves the planet via a satellite pretty much everytime you use the internet, so it leaving the borders of the EU shouldn't be a problem
GDPR really only concerns itself with personal data. this was further boiled down to "personal identifiable data" during 2018 - or PII as its become known.
The ICO in the UK (which are led by EU directives, ultimately based on a mix of German and UK law) are taking a pragmatic approach. in fact when i talked to the ICO last year on the subject - they dont see the trend of the number of prosecutions increasing. its also being challenged in court - so that outcome is to be decided.
There is also the small matter that GDPR cannot be truly enforced outside of the EMEA/EU. however i know a lot of US companies are changing to comply (facebook is a good example actually, theyve publically said theyll comply) - but the ICO can make enough "noise" about it if needed to force non-EU companies to change.
anyway, the point in this case is - "look at the data which is being transferred - Is it personal identifiable data which has ramifications on an individual ?"
if its just game logs - then no.
if its just usernames - then no.
if it contains real names - then possibly still no - with a caveat. this was an argument during the inception of GDPR actually - what are you going to do, ban all the phone books in the world?) - however it would certainly raise an eyebrow or 2 - theres still not been a legal definition on that - but most companies are taking a pragmatic approach - and yes, that does mean limiting what people do - including changing the "visitors" books on receptions throughout the uk!
however if it contained usernames, realnames and home addresses then possibly yes, you'd be able to argue thats a PII breach - but i doubt GAME logs (which is how ZOS would frame this) would contain this - itll probably be username, an ip address and probably some OS info - which is NOT PII.
however what you'd need to do is look at the content of the logs to see if it constituted a PII breach - but i highly doubt it does. ZOS could just argue its required game functionality - and they'd have quite a tight case tbh.
I tend to agree. It's going to be a hard case to sell that character data on a video game = personal data protected under the GDPR. But I'm enjoying some of the creative arguments to suggest that it is nonetheless.
I understand this law is relatively new so a lot of the standards are likely still in a state of flux.0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone creates an account, downloads and installs the client for recording, starts an encounter log, ends the encounter log, then that someone has to upload the files, wait for it to process, and then can examine the data.
If I understood things correctly, recording doesn't require any client. It's a base game functionality. The "client" is only an uploading tool to the esologs site.
Logs could be deciphered by anyone techie enough to write the adequate code (and, looking at the quality f addons provided by addon authors, there are some of them out there), to do whatever they wish with it, wherever they wish.And here I though I had little faith in people
I too have faith in people in general, but you can have faith in people in general and still be on your guard when you're in an environment with higher toxicity than average, which I believe to be the case in MMO communities, even if it's only the 5 or 10% that make life harder for the rest 90 or 95% of people who are nice.
I believe this tool will be used for many legit purposes (diagnosing, improving, understanding, etc.) but it will also be used in every nasty way possible, be it against anonymous strangers or against people we know but don't like us, or because of guild drama, whatever.
Besides, the point isn't whether the tool will or will not be used in a toxic way, but that it can.(which may I remind you is the norm in the MMO genre)
Well, the MMO genre isn't exactly famous for being toxicity-free, is it ? Besides, the ESO community has always been sort of split between "MMO players" and "Elder Scrolls players". While generalizing, we could safely say that the former are more competition-centered, more min-maxing, etc., while the latter will be more the "play how you want" type of people. As a result, the "standards of MMO genre" isn't a valid argument for many players, rather the opposite : they (we) don't want the "MMO-standards" in ESO, because they (we) don't think ESO is just any MMO.
And it was the original design of ESO to be different. Remember at the start, the vanilla game had a minimal, non-invasive UI, no timers, no buff indicators, no damage numbers, none of these "MMO-standard" things. And to this day, it doesn't even have a mini-map. So yeah, just because something belongs theoretically to "MMO-standards" doesn't mean they have to be in ESO too, nor that it's a good thing.
(edit : I've gone a little bit off-topic, this thread being about GDPR compliance. Sorry about that).Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on April 18, 2019 11:09AM4 -
MJallday✭✭✭✭✭
✭i think in conclusion all i would say is
Character data on a video game is not PII. full stop. theres no question to answer there.
Game log data created by ESO MAY contain PII - but I doubt it - and it is certainly unestablished in this (ZOS) case.
ZOS should comply with GDPR, in the same way that Apple, MS, Twitter and Facebook have to - because they operate and offer services to and within the EU
0 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭witchdoctor wrote: »The comment above that the hypothetically-aggrieved EU citizen has to seek their redress through ZOS is interesting.
Can they? If so, how?
My random not-in-the-shower train of thought:- ESO is an online service
- As an online service, it evolves
- ZOS adds a functionality to allow combat logging
- ZOS makes the users of its service aware of its new functionality
- EU player actively logs into the service
There may be a distinction between the collection of cookies and private data by your coming to Ferrari's website, and you actively logging into an online service which has made you aware that other users can log certain in-game data.
Meaning, your GDPR 'protection' is, 'do not use my service.'
Not at all. "my" GDPR protection is that I can disable all data gathering by Ferrari's site and continue to use the service if I do not do that I have consented to the data gathering if I continue using the site. I can still go into the data collecting setting (Cookie Policy) and turn them off (if I can't it isn't GDPR compliant).
The GDPR requires that the highest possible privacy settings in regards to personal data be used by default. If this is indeed considered personal data - then allowing 3rd parties access to it unless the person acts to prevent it would mean it's in noncompliance with the GDPR. I don't see how there is anyway around that.
Yes I saw additional protection is now covered by the law, very promising imo. The mindless gathering of personal data online everywhere is running amok.
And for all of you who clearly missed it on page one and are guessing what the definition of personal data, online identity and identifier is in the law text, here it is again.
"Article 4(1) defines “personal data” as follows (all emphasis added unless otherwise stated):
’personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person".
If my social identity and online identifier here on the forum and in the game, Idinuse, along with my actions are collected by an online service and stored on my or someone else's computer/storage space and/or optionally uploaded to a public space, that person and/or everyone here at least knows that's me, who last I checked is a natural person and in this case the data subject. Even if I'm set to Anonymous, a person that knows I am the Anonymous in the log can indirectly identify the natural person, the data subject, behind Anonymous. Anonymous should be the default setting at the very minimum in any case.
More over a complete opt out or opt in of data gathering should be in place. If the tool doesn't work with this, it needs to be redesigned until it does. I am personally very very convinced that the majority of us will opt in and have it show our Character Name and Online Game Identity anyway. This isn't about that.
Also check the following section;
"1. Behavioral analysis
Recital 24 states:
The processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union should also be subject to this Regulation when it is related to the monitoring of the behaviour of such data subjects in so far as their behaviour takes place within the Union. In order to determine whether a processing activity can be considered to monitor the behaviour of data subjects, it should be ascertained whether natural persons are tracked on the internet including potential subsequent use of personal data processing techniques which consist of profiling a natural person, particularly in order to take decisions concerning her or him or for analysing or predicting her or his personal preferences, behaviours and attitudes."
Edit: The "Union" being the European Union*Edited by Idinuse on April 19, 2019 12:38AMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
No, we are going to leave that to this badly implemented tool, which allows someone else to secretly record your activities and post them to an external server for them to bait, hate on and humiliate there.
In .001% of cases maybe
Meanwhile the overwhelming 99.999% of usage will be for self or group improvement
No one cares enough to record every stupid pug run on the off chance someone will be bad enough to warrant more than an offhanded comment to their buddy later about the mess of a dungeon run. They won’t even remember your character name, much less your account name.
Get over your bloated sense of self-importance and throw your paranoia in the garbage
I wish I could agree with you. But sadly I don't.
I expect there will be countless websites, posts and videos made devoted entirely to analyzing the logs of players they encounter during pugs so they can make fun of them online. Even among guilds I believe they will become contentious. But I could be wrong. We'll see. ^^
Ok dude, maybe you missed it, but recording a log requires you decide to do so and start it beforehand. Nothing is automatically logged. These logs do not show account names, only character names. These logs will only apply numbers to what is already observable.
Obviously someone can tell if they’re the only one with good dps. They can see if there’s any orbs or shards being provided. They can see if the tank is taunting the boss or letting it run free. They can see if mobs are dying or if they’re not.
If someone gets reamed over a bad performance, it’s not gonna be this tool that caused it. ESO character names floating in the void of the internet are no more dangerous than a neopets pet name of yesteryear.
If a guild competes amongst themselves and points out weak points, that is intended and beneficial so people can actually improve.
Does it? I was under the impression the log is turned on by default.
Whether someone can tell if someone is a good dps or not isn't really the issue. You made the claim these logs weren't going to be used to berate and humiliate others. I believe they will be. I never claimed they were "dangerous" so I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment.
The creation of logs only occurs when someone starts recording one.ESOLogs Forum Thread
To start an encounter log, enter "/encounterlog" into chat (without the quotes). Once you're finished, you can type "/encounterlog" a second time to disable logging. You'll see a system message each time letting you know if you've started logging or stopped it. You will need an account on https://www.esologs.com/ and the uploader available there to view your group's logs.
This is not an inbuilt feature of the game system. It will not be feeding information left right and center even for those who do use the tool. It requires an account, and it requires a program to view the logs in a coherent way.
People on the whole do not care enough to go through that much effort just to collect name and shame material. They aren’t gonna start up logs at every pug, they’re not gonna upload every bad run for the lols, they’re not gonna blast it to the wind as if their run was anything special on a scale of pugs. Maybe 2 or 3 cases of abusing this tool will pop up, if that.
For all intents and purposes, it’s a nonissue
But when someone records a log it records everyone around them. So people can be recorded without starting it beforehand.
You say people on the whole do not care. But I don't know why you think that. Almost every time I pug on this game I encounter people who care about how others play and who go out of their way to comment about it or make fun of other people's DPS. Having a log they can record only gives them another tool in which to do that with. So I don't know why you think people aren't going to care about it or use it.
I can already promise you people are going to load that log up when they pug and then comment about what they see going on in that log. And 9 out of 10 times those comments aren't going to be kind. I also expect them to be used in screen shots as well to humiliate others and to stress how terrible their rotations are.
And here I though I had little faith in people
No, no one is going to be searching up your logs before a pug. It’s not gonna happen. People will always give a damn about your performance because your performance is directly related to how much time they’re stuck in an instance with you, and how pleasant that instance is going to be.
Do you remember the name of the healer in your last pug? I’m guessing you don’t, and it’s gonna be the same with these tools. No one is going to remember you unless you are spectacularly good or spectacularly bad.
And once again, no, logs are not recorded “by default”, whatever you think that means. Someone creates an account, downloads and installs the client for recording, starts an encounter log, ends the encounter log, then that someone has to upload the files, wait for it to process, and then can examine the data.
What’s more ridiculous is your assertion that the average pug is going to be recorded at all, nevermind some random person caring enough about you to go through the whole process for the purpose of spiting underperforming players.
It’s no more strange to have this data recorded (which may I remind you is the norm in the MMO genre) than it is to be able to visibly see another player in combat. I’ve already told you, this tool simply applies numbers to what people are already able to see.
Data recording may be the norm in other MMOs, but it has not been the norm for ESO.
What's also fairly "normal" for at least some MMOs is add-ons using the uploaded logs to create character histories of combat stats - we don't have anything like that yet, but it's not out of the realm of possibility based on other games. Again, not the norm for ESO.
Moreover, the last add-on we had that did this was shelved because of the potential for toxicity - and ZOS figured this tool will be okay only because its not in real-time. And we have plenty of threads here on the forums about terrible dungeon runs. And many players have the experience of someone being toxic about their build, DPS, or inexperience in group content. Like any group activity involving people, group content in ESO attracts its fair share of jerks.
I think calling their concerns about this tool enabling toxicity a "non-issue" is inaccurate. The toxicity will have to be after the encounter, sure, but that doesnt mean it can't happen. It won't be the norm, but our current experience suggests there's potential for abuse. Most jerks probably won't go to the effort, but if someone does, the only protection players have is to be set to Anonymous.
That being said, I think the easiest solution - the most proactive solution - to those concerns is to make the in game option default to Anonymous. There's very little incentive to abuse the logs if the majority of random PUGs are set to Anonymous, so it should lessen incidents AND give players the best protection.4 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic. Remember, it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.
No, we are going to leave that to this badly implemented tool, which allows someone else to secretly record your activities and post them to an external server for them to bait, hate on and humiliate there.
In .001% of cases maybe
Meanwhile the overwhelming 99.999% of usage will be for self or group improvement
No one cares enough to record every stupid pug run on the off chance someone will be bad enough to warrant more than an offhanded comment to their buddy later about the mess of a dungeon run. They won’t even remember your character name, much less your account name.
Get over your bloated sense of self-importance and throw your paranoia in the garbage
I wish I could agree with you. But sadly I don't.
I expect there will be countless websites, posts and videos made devoted entirely to analyzing the logs of players they encounter during pugs so they can make fun of them online. Even among guilds I believe they will become contentious. But I could be wrong. We'll see. ^^
Ok dude, maybe you missed it, but recording a log requires you decide to do so and start it beforehand. Nothing is automatically logged. These logs do not show account names, only character names. These logs will only apply numbers to what is already observable.
Obviously someone can tell if they’re the only one with good dps. They can see if there’s any orbs or shards being provided. They can see if the tank is taunting the boss or letting it run free. They can see if mobs are dying or if they’re not.
If someone gets reamed over a bad performance, it’s not gonna be this tool that caused it. ESO character names floating in the void of the internet are no more dangerous than a neopets pet name of yesteryear.
If a guild competes amongst themselves and points out weak points, that is intended and beneficial so people can actually improve.
The log does not show account names on ESOLogs, but it collects them in the raw data file.5 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭It seems the feedback has reached ZOS:ZOS_BobbyWeir wrote: »Hey everyone! Based on your feedback, we are changing the default value for the Anonymous setting to "On". This means your character name and UserID will not be included in an encounter log unless you change the setting. This change will not be in the upcoming PTS build but expect to see it in one of the following ones.
A minor detail that is specific to PTS - when this change hits PTS, your setting will flip. Once live though, everyone will be set to "On".
That's much more acceptable for me.1 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭As an aside to this, I wonder if you people have unearthed a GDPR contact email address at ZOS in the course of this? I wish to raise a separate privacy matter. I did search the website but couldn't find one, but that is likely my own lack of observation skills...0
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Env_t✭✭✭FlyingSwan wrote: »As an aside to this, I wonder if you people have unearthed a GDPR contact email address at ZOS in the course of this? I wish to raise a separate privacy matter. I did search the website but couldn't find one, but that is likely my own lack of observation skills...
im interesting in this too0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Information from their Privacy Polciy below, I would guess that's the contact email regarding any GDPR issues.17. Contact Details
The controller for your personal information is ZeniMax Media Inc.,1370 Piccard Drive Rockville, MD 20850 USA. In addition, for purchases made by Users in the EEA, ZeniMax Europe Ltd., Reg. No. 06333300, Haymarket House, 29-29 Haymarket, London SW1Y 4SP, is a joint- controller for your transaction data. This privacy notice applies to both ZeniMax Media Inc. and ZeniMax Europe Ltd., and data subjects may exercise their rights with respect to their EEA transaction data with both entities by contacting ZeniMax Media Inc. as set forth below.
If you have any questions, complaints or comments regarding our Privacy Notice or practices, please contact our Privacy Coordinator via email at privacy@support.zenimax.com or by regular mail at:
Privacy Coordinator
ZeniMax Media Inc.
1370 Piccard Drive
Rockville, MD 20850 USA
You can also reach us through our affiliates, ZeniMax Europe Limited, our EU representative: Haymarket House, 28-29 Haymarket, London SW1Y 4SP, United Kingdom.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0