Werewolf Nerf?
spacebandit
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I did a test on live to see how fast bleeds would tick spamming light attack then i quit attacking and timed the bleeds without attacking. To me it seems like 2 bleed ticks a second light attacking but only one bleed tick a second when not attacking. my bleed ticks are doing roughly 40%(not perfect math) of my physical light attack using pack leader that means they make up roughly 40% of my damage. With the changes my bleed damage is going to be nerfed in half minus another 15% with pack leader morph.
Im asking because my math could be off but this seems like about a 30% nerf to all damage a WW can do? Can anyone confirm?
I just got my ww and was enjoying it, i don't like this at all if i am right.
Im asking because my math could be off but this seems like about a 30% nerf to all damage a WW can do? Can anyone confirm?
I just got my ww and was enjoying it, i don't like this at all if i am right.
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Best Answers
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perditioner✭✭✭I can't retrait jewellery and weapons, it reduces my weapon damage. I see a 4k difference, but that is probably the retraiting given I saw a similar drop last patch before changing traits again.5
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PeaBrainCarl✭✭spacebandit wrote: »I did a test on live to see how fast bleeds would tick spamming light attack then i quit attacking and timed the bleeds without attacking. To me it seems like 2 bleed ticks a second light attacking but only one bleed tick a second when not attacking. my bleed ticks are doing roughly 40%(not perfect math) of my physical light attack using pack leader that means they make up roughly 40% of my damage. With the changes my bleed damage is going to be nerfed in half minus another 15% with pack leader morph.
Im asking because my math could be off but this seems like about a 30% nerf to all damage a WW can do? Can anyone confirm?
I just got my ww and was enjoying it, i don't like this at all if i am right.
Tested this yesterday since I was interested in it as well.
Berserker
36,654.8 DPS, 1m 22s, 3m HP - PTS
40,029.4 DPS, 1m 15s, 3m HP - Live
-3,374.6 DPS / 91.57% (-8.43%)
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Pack Leader
42,123.8 DPS, 1m 11s, 3m HP - PTS
42,599.9 DPS, 1m 11s, 3m HP - Live
-476.1 DPS / 98.88% (-1.12%)
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Molag, Rele, Blood Moon
Only did one test each so it could be a bit different than what is here. Also, I doubt that I'm completely optimized(not perfect CP, Enchants, Traits) for damage, but it's likely fairly close to being as high as possible. Surprised that Pack Leader was so close on the PTS as it is on Live.
Side note: (problems/complaints/fixes)It's tedious to keep the form active as well as having devour cover up synergies while in combat, but WW is fun and at least semi-competitive for damage. Currently, it's "good enough" to still play as a fun build and still feel like it's worth the spot in a group. There is some upside against moving bosses since it has no ground DoTs that you have to recast, but it highly lacks AoE damage in general. The claw change was kind of nice, but it's still giving up a lot of AoE damage to play as WW. Outside of the form, there is a damage loss due to CP being different for WW than a standard build. This along with wearing gear speced for a WW and not being in the form is about a 30-40% damage loss over non-WWs. Depending on the Dungeon/Trial/Whatever you may be forced out of WW form a few times during a run. It is also impossible to maintain at all if the group is slow enough; waiting between fights.
Personally, I'd like to see WW form be a toggled ability that sets your ultimate to 0. This avoids abuse with DK passive. Give it a 30 second cooldown on leaving the form. Either make the devour passive not automatic(so you can simply choose not to take it, which I'd highly prefer), or give devour it's own synergy key. This fixes all the problems with devour, since you don't need to do it to maintain the form, but it could still be there for the healing it gives. It also fixes the issue with severe damage loss when not in the form since you have more control over when it occurs.
For the damage loss on the PTS compared to live, just have the damage on the Berserker scale up over time. Easy fix. Solves the problem with the bleed damage being too much burst on each hit and still maintains it's current strength.
I can't speak too much about PvP even though I have tried both a DPS and a tank build. Not being able to maintain the form kind of ruins it for me. I know it's strong there, which is why it's being changed, but either way, I'd be more interested in it being balanced around a toggled form rather than as it is now.2 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭Live bleed on single LA, proc at seconds :
0 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 6 - 8
Live bleed on LA spam, proc at seconds (approx) :
0 - 0.65 - 1.3 - 1.95 - 2.6 - 3.25 - 3.9 - 4.55 - 5.2 - 5.85 - 6.5 - 7.15 - 7.8 - 8.45 - 9.1 - 9.75 - 10.4
PTS bleed on single LA, proc at seconds :
1 - 2 - 3 - 4
PTS bleed on LA spam, proc at seconds (approx) :
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5.5 - 6.5 - 7.5 - 8.5 - 10
(spoiler : due to the damage/tick, it should be all fine, no major nerf)1
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Probably. You’ll see a huge nerf when they destroy cp as the double and triple dipping with LA CP is where a lot of WW dps comes
from. Keep listening to these forum warriors and watch your game die ZOS.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions4 -
Wildberryjack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thirty percent is major and way too much of a nerf. If this goes live I'll probably just cure my WWs and be done with since the class ultima's will be better then. Shame, WW is fun.The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. ~Pablo Picasso3 -
Dashmatt✭✭✭✭The patch notes are confusing because it gives this long explanation about the bleed delay and makes it sound like there is no nerf, but there definitely is.0
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ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Can someone in PTS make a 6M test for us please ? Thank you !
Relequen + Blood Moon + Kena
Lover Mundus
Pack leader , no pre-buff , weapon power potion , just LA
Thank you !
Actually , I don't play WW since Wrathstone , because those dungeons are not WW friendly , WW requires to port into 2nd zone in DOM last boss phase , WW timer will run out quickly , there are nothing we can devour except the little tree , in FV last boss , WW requires to transform into mickey form , we lose the WW form .
Anyone here can complete these HM with WW ?
I think there are no reason ZOS gonna nerf WW unless they do it base on the BG results and bleeding issues .
WW OP ? No kidding , we play it for fun .0 -
spacebandit✭✭✭I expected the bleed change but no buffs to light attack physical damage, a direct nerf to bleed damage (one morph), no meaningful change to other abilities to bring them back in line.
Feels like deliberately destroying a play style cause I Came to my conclusion with about 1 minute worth of testing and about 2 minutes worth of cheap math.
I didn’t think ww form was op just easy. I hit the same number on my stamden last night that my ww has been doing on my test dummy. My petsorc doing the same too, maybe not now after nerfs. Will still be in a heck of a lot better place than ww will be thoEdited by spacebandit on April 17, 2019 4:02AM2 -
juhislihis19✭✭✭✭ZOS don't care about WW. The way WW has been broken in the past few years and keeps getting ignored verifies this.
First they do **** all to fix the major bugs, now they just nerf the whole thing. Guess that works too. Kinda like they buffed Leap's radius from 6.5 to 8m because they couldn't fix the reason why Leap kept missing hitting players.0 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭juhislihis19 wrote: »ZOS don't care about WW. The way WW has been broken in the past few years and keeps getting ignored verifies this.
First they do **** all to fix the major bugs, now they just nerf the whole thing. Guess that works too. Kinda like they buffed Leap's radius from 6.5 to 8m because they couldn't fix the reason why Leap kept missing hitting players.
What major bugs?0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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Mostly bar swap bug. It can happen occaisonally when you cancel WW form and return back to human form - you will be unable to bar swap for certain amount of time. Also in a rare situations your character visual model will not render at all when you revert back to human form.juhislihis19 wrote: »ZOS don't care about WW. The way WW has been broken in the past few years and keeps getting ignored verifies this.
First they do **** all to fix the major bugs, now they just nerf the whole thing. Guess that works too. Kinda like they buffed Leap's radius from 6.5 to 8m because they couldn't fix the reason why Leap kept missing hitting players.
What major bugs?3 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭juhislihis19 wrote: »ZOS don't care about WW. The way WW has been broken in the past few years and keeps getting ignored verifies this.
First they do **** all to fix the major bugs, now they just nerf the whole thing. Guess that works too. Kinda like they buffed Leap's radius from 6.5 to 8m because they couldn't fix the reason why Leap kept missing hitting players.
What major bugs?
WIthout going into detail, let´s just say that ZOS would need a seperate patch just to adress all of them. And while bugs are annoying I understand that *** happen when you code these kind of things, the issue lies with how ZOS handles them. And with werewolf it feels more like a common practice to instead of fixing the issue or bug that occured, they either:
a) Adjust the description of the tooltips so it matches whatever mechanic that broke
b) Make some band aid fix around the bug. So far these band aid fixes has worked out ok-ish, but it is noticable how the numerous bugs (that started to occur with Summerset) has affected werewolf gameplay.
On topic:
The change to werewolf bleed is mainly a nerf to PvE, where the Pack-Leader morph is the superior DPS choice at the moment. Personally I don´t mind ZOS reducing damage in PvE since it´s spiriling out of control at this point (not werewolf specific). WW in PvP will be just fine, it´s a small nerf but nothing significant.
Edited by Qbiken on April 17, 2019 7:09AM0 -
Skullstachio✭✭✭✭✭spacebandit wrote: »I did a test on live to see how fast bleeds would tick spamming light attack then i quit attacking and timed the bleeds without attacking. To me it seems like 2 bleed ticks a second light attacking but only one bleed tick a second when not attacking. my bleed ticks are doing roughly 40%(not perfect math) of my physical light attack using pack leader that means they make up roughly 40% of my damage. With the changes my bleed damage is going to be nerfed in half minus another 15% with pack leader morph.
Im asking because my math could be off but this seems like about a 30% nerf to all damage a WW can do? Can anyone confirm?
I just got my ww and was enjoying it, i don't like this at all if i am right.
15% reduction technically, because if I am not mistaken, since morphs “may” be a seperate entity from the Base ability, maybe werewolf transformation and pack leader got reduced by 15% individually as seperate entities entirely. (I could be wrong, but the impossible can happen.)If you see me anywhere. Know that I am sitting back with a bag of popcorn, watching as ESO burns the goodwill of its player base with practices that only disrespects the players time like it did to me and many others...
If a game does not respect your time, best thing to do is move on from it and find something else.0 -
Itzmichi✭✭✭✭✭Strange how 1 person complains and talks about major bugs and all and no one else apperantly ever had these bugs. 🤔Here, have a chill pill 💊!0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strange how 1 person complains and talks about major bugs and all and no one else apperantly ever had these bugs. 🤔
Put it this way, if there´re none or very few people who bothers bug-testing things with werewolf, the changes of coming across or experience a werewolf related bug will be slim. Another thing that makes bug-testing on werewolf more difficult is the fact that you´ve a timer that can run out. With Wolfhunter and the addition of Hunter´s Glade house bug-testing with werewolf became significantly easier.
And out of curiosity, what bugs do you refer to?1 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭juhislihis19 wrote: »ZOS don't care about WW. The way WW has been broken in the past few years and keeps getting ignored verifies this.
First they do **** all to fix the major bugs, now they just nerf the whole thing. Guess that works too. Kinda like they buffed Leap's radius from 6.5 to 8m because they couldn't fix the reason why Leap kept missing hitting players.
What major bugs?
WIthout going into detail, let´s just say that ZOS would need a seperate patch just to adress all of them. And while bugs are annoying I understand that *** happen when you code these kind of things, the issue lies with how ZOS handles them. And with werewolf it feels more like a common practice to instead of fixing the issue or bug that occured, they either:
a) Adjust the description of the tooltips so it matches whatever mechanic that broke
b) Make some band aid fix around the bug. So far these band aid fixes has worked out ok-ish, but it is noticable how the numerous bugs (that started to occur with Summerset) has affected werewolf gameplay.
On topic:
The change to werewolf bleed is mainly a nerf to PvE, where the Pack-Leader morph is the superior DPS choice at the moment. Personally I don´t mind ZOS reducing damage in PvE since it´s spiriling out of control at this point (not werewolf specific). WW in PvP will be just fine, it´s a small nerf but nothing significant.
The DPS nerfing is not really fine , all class DPS could hit 40K easily , WW is around 40-45 , depends the build and connection quality .
But this is ST and melee range , ZOS revamp the WW last year and destroy them this year , they have no idea what they do .
Just like the NB skill line , they mess up everything , remove the skill , add new skill , nerf new skill , change new skill , hell NO .
Look at the templar , ZOS keep to buff them , they stated that risk vs return .
They can't well balance PVP and PVE , actually they just focus the nerfing base on PVP results .0 -
juhislihis19✭✭✭✭Strange how 1 person complains and talks about major bugs and all and no one else apperantly ever had these bugs. 🤔
Have you ever read Werewolf topics in these forums? Seems like you haven't so I listed all the major bugs I can remember, which have been ravaging WW in the past few years:
- inability to devour
- Pursuit passive not working
- inability to swap weapon bars
- WW bleed proccing enchants
- Savage Strength resistance passive didn't work
- Mighty Chudan didn't work while in WW form
- you kept losing your WW form for no reason
- after Biting Jabs and Dizzy's aim got broken, this also affected WW light attack
These are the few concerns in the past 2 years. And it takes MONTHS for ZOS to fix one, if they even bother.3 -
brtomkin✭✭✭"Total duration decreased to 4 seconds from 8 seconds."
The duration change is what concerns me the most, the other changes seem fair.
PS5 NA: Pickmans__Model, CP 2000+1 -
perditioner✭✭✭I've tested on the PTS with my live build and I don't see much difference. I got 40k, which is less than live but I don't have Summerset and therefore retraiting so the difference is going to mostly be that.
It would be great if someone could test who could retrait to be certain.
I used kena, relequin, blood moon. Warrior pots, blue food, khajiit dk. I would normally have nirnhorned on one dagger and bloodthirsty neck, infused rings. Weapon damage on jewelry, poison and disease on daggers. Shadow mundus.0 -
spacebandit✭✭✭
What difference is Summerset going to have on WW damage? How much damage are you doing on live? Maybe it’s not as bad as it sounds.perditioner wrote: »I've tested on the PTS with my live build and I don't see much difference. I got 40k, which is less than live but I don't have Summerset and therefore retraiting so the difference is going to mostly be that.
It would be great if someone could test who could retrait to be certain.
I used kena, relequin, blood moon. Warrior pots, blue food, khajiit dk. I would normally have nirnhorned on one dagger and bloodthirsty neck, infused rings. Weapon damage on jewelry, poison and disease on daggers. Shadow mundus.
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Ace_SiN✭✭✭✭My issue with this is probably going to be in PvP. ZOS brought this bleed in line with their new DoT ruleset and it would appear that they are trying to keep the same overall DPS numbers. The issue, however, is that DPS largely means nothing in PvP. You need burst damage through direct hits, insanely strong dots to create this same effect (usually supported by poison injection), or a viable mix of the two. Unlike PvE, players will purge your dots quickly and/or spam heals/shields to counter you. WW's reliable sustained pressure comes from light attack proccing the bleed on each swing. Now, that's pretty much gone. The cost of skills is just way too high and have always been easily avoided when facing skilled opponents (Howl being a projectile is a bane to the skill's reliability). Also, DK's can reflect Howl on live, however, even after the wings change they'll just be laughing as we get counter dotted and dunked on with almost nothing to counter pressure with.
Hopefully, ZOS considers how this impacts us and not assume that we can just be blanket balanced and all will be well. We can't just roll with the punches and swap out skills like other builds. I'd appreciate this change more if they at least lowered our skill costs, but Howl should also be relabeled as a melee ability.Edited by Ace_SiN on April 17, 2019 2:52PMKing of Beasts0 -
RandomKodiak✭✭✭✭✭If they purged the effect shouldn't the next light attack be able to proc the bleed again since it is no longer there? Not a pvper so really just asking not trying to troll. Also it seems that the bleed damage is still there just in a shorter burst, I may have been wrong but it seemed my bleed damage on pts was same as on live just in a 4 second window instead of 8.
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spacebandit✭✭✭
this answers a lot of what I was wondering. Your saying they fit 8 seconds worth of bleed damage into 4 seconds? That would increase the damage of the bleed ticks by double but half as many ticks per second? I wonder if the pack leader morph is still best for pve?RandomKodiak wrote: »If they purged the effect shouldn't the next light attack be able to proc the bleed again since it is no longer there? Not a pvper so really just asking not trying to troll. Also it seems that the bleed damage is still there just in a shorter burst, I may have been wrong but it seemed my bleed damage on pts was same as on live just in a 4 second window instead of 8.
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RandomKodiak✭✭✭✭✭When I did a short test on pts, bleed was still 40% to 60% for the LA damage. Just did LA, and IC nothing else. But as i said not a pvper and I use Berserker because I am not a big pet fan and have only been using WW for vMA
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RouDeR✭✭✭✭✭
✭spacebandit wrote: »
this answers a lot of what I was wondering. Your saying they fit 8 seconds worth of bleed damage into 4 seconds? That would increase the damage of the bleed ticks by double but half as many ticks per second? I wonder if the pack leader morph is still best for pve?RandomKodiak wrote: »If they purged the effect shouldn't the next light attack be able to proc the bleed again since it is no longer there? Not a pvper so really just asking not trying to troll. Also it seems that the bleed damage is still there just in a shorter burst, I may have been wrong but it seemed my bleed damage on pts was same as on live just in a 4 second window instead of 8.
Nope they did 3 nerfs
removed the ability to be re applied
reduced the damage of the bleed
reduced the durarion in half1 -
spacebandit✭✭✭Then it’s as I originally thought. I don’t think very much if any at all consideration was put into how this change would affect a playstyle that has no option but to use a bleed based attack as it’s spammable.Edited by spacebandit on April 17, 2019 3:46PM0
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RandomKodiak✭✭✭✭✭Ok just checked on PTS. They did reduce the bleed damage for Pack leader by 15% and buffed Berserker bleed. The damage other than those %s is in 4 sec instead of 8 so it's burstier. Didn't have anyone to test removed the ability to be re applied so can't speak as to that. But same build, same gear (once again I use Berserker) is doing the same bleed damage plus new buff percentage in 4 secs instead of 8.
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spacebandit✭✭✭
Only going by tooltips and personal experience That will make it only about a 6% nerf to total damage for pack leader and a 12% or so buff to total damage for berserker.RandomKodiak wrote: »Ok just checked on PTS. They did reduce the bleed damage for Pack leader by 15% and buffed Berserker bleed. The damage other than those %s is in 4 sec instead of 8 so it's burstier. Didn't have anyone to test removed the ability to be re applied so can't speak as to that. But same build, same gear (once again I use Berserker) is doing the same bleed damage plus new buff percentage in 4 secs instead of 8.
If not then something isn’t adding up right.
Wish I had pts to test this myself
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mcagatayg✭✭✭✭Dont nerf WW pls, all the random guys i get in PUG sometimes play WW and i feel nice. Cuz i know even a bad dd can do decent dps with it.0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It is fine.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA1