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Snare Immunity And Medium Armor In Light Of Race Against Time
Vapirko
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I'm a bit surprised I have to make this thread, I very much thought we would see a slight buff to shuffle especially with all this talk of "bringing skills in line." So now we have heavy armor with FM at 4 seconds of immunity, fine, its good the way it is. Magicka classes now get 4 seconds of immunity as well with race against time, AWESOME!! But ZOS, didnt you forget about medium armor? Why the discrepancy? Medium armor is arguably the most difficult spec to play in PvP, and should be the most mobile, and yet now it's outclassed by heavy as well as light armor (and light already has snare reduction passives). So don't get me wrong, heavy and light are good. 4 seconds of snare immunity should be standard. I think it's the minimum amount to be effective. But I cannot understand why shuffle was left out.
Forward Momentum has a base cost of 2970 stamina, provides a small HoT and snare removal + 4 seconds immunity. Seems appropriate given the current strength of heavy armor.
Race Against Time has a base cost of 2984 magicka, provides 4 seconds of major expedition, 4 seconds of snare immunity and 12 seconds of minor force. It's loaded but that's pretty awesome.
Shuffle has a base cost of 3672 stamina, and provides 2.5-3.5 seconds of snare immunity and 25% AoE mitigation for 20 seconds.
Now the cost of shuffle is needlessly high to begin with, it's nowhere near as good as Race Against Time and has a base cost of 779 more stamina. Beyond that, anyone knows that you need to run 5 medium and 2 heavy to have a chance of survival in PvP which means that you can really only viably get 2.5 seconds of snare removal. The AoE mitigation is great, but you pretty much have to have it up constantly to survive in medium armor. And for all these reasons shuffle is just vastly overshadowed by the other two skills. This is not a reason to nerf those skills ZOS, ok? I can't emphasize that enough. But shuffle really needs a minimum of 4 seconds of immunity if not a cost reduction as well, and I think it should be done within this PTS cycle. This is something a lot of people have been saying for a long time.
Forward Momentum has a base cost of 2970 stamina, provides a small HoT and snare removal + 4 seconds immunity. Seems appropriate given the current strength of heavy armor.
Race Against Time has a base cost of 2984 magicka, provides 4 seconds of major expedition, 4 seconds of snare immunity and 12 seconds of minor force. It's loaded but that's pretty awesome.
Shuffle has a base cost of 3672 stamina, and provides 2.5-3.5 seconds of snare immunity and 25% AoE mitigation for 20 seconds.
Now the cost of shuffle is needlessly high to begin with, it's nowhere near as good as Race Against Time and has a base cost of 779 more stamina. Beyond that, anyone knows that you need to run 5 medium and 2 heavy to have a chance of survival in PvP which means that you can really only viably get 2.5 seconds of snare removal. The AoE mitigation is great, but you pretty much have to have it up constantly to survive in medium armor. And for all these reasons shuffle is just vastly overshadowed by the other two skills. This is not a reason to nerf those skills ZOS, ok? I can't emphasize that enough. But shuffle really needs a minimum of 4 seconds of immunity if not a cost reduction as well, and I think it should be done within this PTS cycle. This is something a lot of people have been saying for a long time.
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Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.
ZOS doesn't buff trash not so widely used skills, they remain useless for years as a reserve place to be used when ZOS changes their vision. I mean look at molten whip. It was useless for long, now it will be at the very least preferred PVE morph, and maybe viable in PVP too.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.
ZOS doesn't buff trash not so widely used skills, they remain useless for years as a reserve place to be used when ZOS changes their vision. I mean look at molten whip. It was useless for long, now it will be at the very least preferred PVE morph, and maybe viable in PVP too.
I mean I agree, except that Shuffle is a very widely used skill. It's all but mandatory on a medium build.1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TBH I think you exaggerate, AoE damage reduction makes it up for shuffle. Difference between those skills is minimal.
Edit:
But I wouldn't mind to up immunity on shuffle to 0.7 per medium armor piece.Edited by Mayrael on April 16, 2019 4:23AM"We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.5 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TBH I think you exaggerate, AoE damage reduction makes it up for shuffle. Difference between those skills is minimal.
Just going to flat out disagree with you. It does not make up for it. That AoE mitigation is the only thing keeping medium armor alive. It's not like some nice bonus buff on top of an already well performing armor type.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.
ZOS doesn't buff trash not so widely used skills, they remain useless for years as a reserve place to be used when ZOS changes their vision. I mean look at molten whip. It was useless for long, now it will be at the very least preferred PVE morph, and maybe viable in PVP too.
I mean I agree, except that Shuffle is a very widely used skill. It's all but mandatory on a medium build.
Well, I agree that it was wrong to call it useless, more like under-performing. And stamDK had wings to remove snares, stamplar has cleanse, some builds use FM, some shuffle yep.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TBH I think you exaggerate, AoE damage reduction makes it up for shuffle. Difference between those skills is minimal.
Edit:
But I wouldn't mind to up immunity on shuffle to 0.7 per medium armor piece.
Quick cloak already has that mitigation covered + it’s the source of mE on non-bow builds. Everyone and their mother runs DW anyway nowadays.1 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.
They have.ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.
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Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.
They have.ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.
Hmmm okayyy, but they were able to change Race Against Time but not Shuffle? Sorry but it just doesn't add up.1 -
ccmedaddy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Should just be 1 sec per piece imo. Even at max 7 pieces, which nobody wears in PvP except for maybe some niche gank builds, it's still less than what the old Forward Momentum used to grant.3 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Should just be 1 sec per piece imo. Even at max 7 pieces, which nobody wears in PvP except for maybe some niche gank builds, it's still less than what the old Forward Momentum used to grant.
That would be a bit much I think, .8 seconds should do it. That would make it 4 seconds with five pieces of medium and 5.6 seconds if you're crazy enough to wear seven medium. But honestly I think a flat four seconds would work best.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »TBH I think you exaggerate, AoE damage reduction makes it up for shuffle. Difference between those skills is minimal.
Edit:
But I wouldn't mind to up immunity on shuffle to 0.7 per medium armor piece.
Quick cloak already has that mitigation covered + it’s the source of mE on non-bow builds. Everyone and their mother runs DW anyway nowadays.
But quick cloak is missing the most important part - snare and root cleanse and immunity. When you are snared that major expedition is worth nothing. Yes shuffle could use that a bit longer immunity, as I mentioned 0,7 per medium armor piece, but if you want cost reduction major evasion should be shortened by a lot, it's one of the most powerful buffs in the game - it's useless only vs magsorcs and magblades."We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »TBH I think you exaggerate, AoE damage reduction makes it up for shuffle. Difference between those skills is minimal.
Edit:
But I wouldn't mind to up immunity on shuffle to 0.7 per medium armor piece.
Quick cloak already has that mitigation covered + it’s the source of mE on non-bow builds. Everyone and their mother runs DW anyway nowadays.
But quick cloak is missing the most important part - snare and root cleanse and immunity. When you are snared that major expedition is worth nothing. Yes shuffle could use that a bit longer immunity, as I mentioned 0,7 per medium armor piece, but if you want cost reduction major evasion should be shortened by a lot, it's one of the most powerful buffs in the game - it's useless only vs magsorcs and magblades.
It's not one of the most powerful buffs on medium builds though. On medium builds it simply keeps users close to the same level of effectivness as light and heavy. Except that heavy is still better because of the 4 second immunity and now light is too. And mag sorcs can absolutely rip through medium armor users. It's almost a joke. Also the cost reduction isn't about the major evasion use, it's about using it as a form of snare removal. Minor force and major expedition are also two amazing buffs, easily as useful as 25% AoE mitigation. If medium armor didn't absolutely need that mitigation Id probably just be using race against time on why stamina builds lol.1 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.
They have.ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.
Hmmm okayyy, but they were able to change Race Against Time but not Shuffle? Sorry but it just doesn't add up.
How does it not? They said they wanted to do a complete pass on class skills this patch. The snare meta was another point they wanted to address. They weren't able to get to every skill so they chose to change a skill everyone can use instead of one only half the games classes can use.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDecimus wrote: »*Shuffle remains useless for another patch*
At the very least they should explain why it hasn't been brought in line. It's been a serious pain point for a long time and now they've just left it out.
They have.ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.
Hmmm okayyy, but they were able to change Race Against Time but not Shuffle? Sorry but it just doesn't add up.
How does it not? They said they wanted to do a complete pass on class skills this patch. The snare meta was another point they wanted to address. They weren't able to get to every skill so they chose to change a skill everyone can use instead of one only half the games classes can use.
Because this has been an issue for months. Maybe a year now? It's pretty obvious it needs to at least match the duration of FM and now RAT. What the *** is medium armor supposed to be right now? The most damage? Not really because heavy and light users can dish out equally punishing amounts of damage. The most mobile? Obviously not since now it lags behind both heavy and light. And it sure as hell isn't the most defensive. This change should have absolutely been one of the first things to be addressed this patch. They changed class skills, they changed weapon skills, they added snare removal to light armor yet somehow they couldn't find the time to make shuffle a flat four seconds? Come on. Medium has been suffering for ages.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was under the assumption that medium armor could use FM.
This. It's just a try to eat a cookie and have a cookie."We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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You need that burst heal from Rally to survive in medium armor obviously. And medium armor got whole "sneak" passive which doesn't bring any benefits if you are in active combat.2 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭The most mobile? Obviously not since now it lags behind both heavy and light. And it sure as hell isn't the most defensive.
I think you're forgetting that medium armor can dodge roll for days, AND can sprint the most. I think it's pretty balanced now that light armor users have access to snare immunity now as well.3 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The most mobile? Obviously not since now it lags behind both heavy and light. And it sure as hell isn't the most defensive.
I think you're forgetting that medium armor can dodge roll for days, AND can sprint the most. I think it's pretty balanced now that light armor users have access to snare immunity now as well.
I’m guessing you don’t play many medium armor stamina build? The roll dodge for days myth is for troll stamblade builds. Again you’re welcome to upload your gameplay footage and show us how it’s done in medium with forward momentum and roll dodging for days.2 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I play both a medium armor stamsorc and a light armor magicka warden. For both armor types going 2-3 protective is a must.
I think shuffle is really strong as is, personally, and I don't have any survivability issues with it + using rally on live currently. I don't see how you wouldn't have it up at least 90% of the time; I use unchained to keep it up for cheap and there's never really need an issue with cost. If you're overcasting it or just not playing correctly, sure, you're going to drain your stamina.
When I compare the snare management to my magicka warden on live, currently, I much prefer the stamsorc. Being forced into mistform and forced to take extra damage just to rid yourself of snares is really frustrating. I think adding the Race Against Time change is extremely fair: magicka needed to stop getting forced into vampire.Unfortunate magicka warden main.
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Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The most mobile? Obviously not since now it lags behind both heavy and light. And it sure as hell isn't the most defensive.
I think you're forgetting that medium armor can dodge roll for days, AND can sprint the most. I think it's pretty balanced now that light armor users have access to snare immunity now as well.
I’m guessing you don’t play many medium armor stamina build? The roll dodge for days myth is for troll stamblade builds. Again you’re welcome to upload your gameplay footage and show us how it’s done in medium with forward momentum and roll dodging for days.
Actually I do play on stamblade, and combination of shuffle, roll dodge and cloak is simply ez mode, with shuffle it gets even better. You die only when caught with CC like fossilize and are not able to break free fast enough, other than that? Please... Yes medium is way harder to play than heavy, but so the light is. Now with RAT (lol) LA users are finally brought more in line with MA. Shuffle is already way better then LA shield, can we lower the cost and buff it a bit to?
I understand everyone like buffs, but remember that slight overebuff can lead to heavy overnerf: rune cage, grim focus, fear - which has been buffed again, scales, steel tornado, old wrecking blow and many more. Don't be greedy.
Shuffle could use increased snare immunity (Max.0,7 per piece) but nothing more, other armors skills are also very expensive, there is no reason why Shuffle should be treated other way."We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.1 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why are you forcing me to upload videos lol. Defensive much? I think the burden of proof lies on you.
As stated by the two people above this post, LA is now more in line with MA which was already way better at dealing with snares before.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »TBH I think you exaggerate, AoE damage reduction makes it up for shuffle. Difference between those skills is minimal.
Edit:
But I wouldn't mind to up immunity on shuffle to 0.7 per medium armor piece.
Quick cloak already has that mitigation covered + it’s the source of mE on non-bow builds. Everyone and their mother runs DW anyway nowadays.
But quick cloak is missing the most important part - snare and root cleanse and immunity. When you are snared that major expedition is worth nothing. Yes shuffle could use that a bit longer immunity, as I mentioned 0,7 per medium armor piece, but if you want cost reduction major evasion should be shortened by a lot, it's one of the most powerful buffs in the game - it's useless only vs magsorcs and magblades.
Why do you insist on medium to have the shortest snare immunity?1 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wasn't aware Forward Momentum was a heavy armor skill.
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why are you forcing me to upload videos lol. Defensive much? I think the burden of proof lies on you.
As stated by the two people above this post, LA is now more in line with MA which was already way better at dealing with snares before.
A snare removal doesn´t really do much if you don´t have mobility to begin with. That´s why classes like stamblade and stamsorc works so well with medium armor. Stamblades got the combination of shade, cloak and shuffle which makes for very good mobilty and repositioning. A stamsorc has minor expedition in combination with streak on top of shuffle which also offers great mobility.
Problem with shuffle is how cost inefficient it is for its duration. I would personally see increased duration of the snare immunity since 2-3 seconds is rarely enough to reposition yourself. However, seeing that ZOS made quite a few changes to abilites with snares, and adding immobilize immunity "mechanic", I can´t really tell how shuffle will be with the new changes.
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templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS basically killed any reason to go medium because Race Against Time is so good and you’ll need heavy to run it. I’m not advocating for RAT nerf in any way shape or form, but medium does need buffs to keep it anywhere near competitive to heavy stam. My suggestion, is change the sprint speed passive to base movement speed, buffing total speed by say 3% per medium piece.
Forward momentum can only be ran in certain medium armor specs like Stamden and StamDK who have sufficient healing and survivability to pull it off. You cannot run Forward Momentum in medium armor on a non-niche build on Stamplar, Stamblade or Stamsorc and expect to succeed.Edited by templesus on April 16, 2019 7:13AM4 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »TBH I think you exaggerate, AoE damage reduction makes it up for shuffle. Difference between those skills is minimal.
Edit:
But I wouldn't mind to up immunity on shuffle to 0.7 per medium armor piece.
Quick cloak already has that mitigation covered + it’s the source of mE on non-bow builds. Everyone and their mother runs DW anyway nowadays.
But quick cloak is missing the most important part - snare and root cleanse and immunity. When you are snared that major expedition is worth nothing. Yes shuffle could use that a bit longer immunity, as I mentioned 0,7 per medium armor piece, but if you want cost reduction major evasion should be shortened by a lot, it's one of the most powerful buffs in the game - it's useless only vs magsorcs and magblades.
Why do you insist on medium to have the shortest snare immunity?
Can you read my posts before commenting?"We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.0