ACCC Complaint 219402

Huyen · April 2019

Zavijah wrote: »

I actually love this post.

By operating an office in the Australian territory, it doesn't matter what Terms of Service ZOS outlines - if they can't actually provide the service then they need to cease offering the product as marketable.

Our laws and operating an office here override the caveats of the product provider, on a reasonable basis. Which I'm more than confident that there are enough case examples floating around to demonstrate service is not reasonable.

A seperate but relevant point is that Akamai is not disclosed as impacting product service dleivery; it directly impacts performance through routing through Europe, to America - artificially inflating response time in game and was ONLY added after games launch, without a change in description to sold product.

And the best part? ... This thread cannot be locked down; as another part of operating an office in Australia means you need to provide a platform for clients to clearly and visibly contact product provider, where it is known they will respond.

I've taken the liberty also of recording original post and subsequent responses should any forum moderators be unaware of requirements for Australian consumer law.

Sadly ZOS is based in the US and they have no obligation to adhere to other country laws unless specificly specified by said country.

Iskiab · April 2019

LegacyDM wrote: »

Zavijah wrote: »

I actually love this post.

By operating an office in the Australian territory, it doesn't matter what Terms of Service ZOS outlines - if they can't actually provide the service then they need to cease offering the product as marketable.

Our laws and operating an office here override the caveats of the product provider, on a reasonable basis. Which I'm more than confident that there are enough case examples floating around to demonstrate service is not reasonable.

A seperate but relevant point is that Akamai is not disclosed as impacting product service dleivery; it directly impacts performance through routing through Europe, to America - artificially inflating response time in game and was ONLY added after games launch, without a change in description to sold product.

And the best part? ... This thread cannot be locked down; as another part of operating an office in Australia means you need to provide a platform for clients to clearly and visibly contact product provider, where it is known they will respond.

I've taken the liberty also of recording original post and subsequent responses should any forum moderators be unaware of requirements for Australian consumer law.

Um Zos servers are not located in Australia and I don't think they have offices in aus? As a customer you are agreeing to their terms to gain access to their servers and play their content operated in a different country. Does aus even have any legal jurisdiction on a U.S. Based company operating servers in U.S. And EU?

starkerealm wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Zavijah wrote: »

I actually love this post.

By operating an office in the Australian territory, it doesn't matter what Terms of Service ZOS outlines - if they can't actually provide the service then they need to cease offering the product as marketable.

Our laws and operating an office here override the caveats of the product provider, on a reasonable basis. Which I'm more than confident that there are enough case examples floating around to demonstrate service is not reasonable.

A seperate but relevant point is that Akamai is not disclosed as impacting product service dleivery; it directly impacts performance through routing through Europe, to America - artificially inflating response time in game and was ONLY added after games launch, without a change in description to sold product.

And the best part? ... This thread cannot be locked down; as another part of operating an office in Australia means you need to provide a platform for clients to clearly and visibly contact product provider, where it is known they will respond.

I've taken the liberty also of recording original post and subsequent responses should any forum moderators be unaware of requirements for Australian consumer law.

Um Zos servers are not located in Australia and I don't think they have offices in aus? As a customer you are agreeing to their terms to gain access to their servers and play their content operated in a different country. Does aus even have any legal jurisdiction on a U.S. Based company operating servers in U.S. And EU?

It's complicated.

They have subject matter jurisdiction. The consumer is one of their citizens, and the game is sold in Australia. But, they may not have personal jurisdiction.

Personal jurisdiction is a concept in international law, where you're determining if the court has any means to enforce their rulings on a party that resides (or operates) in another country. So, it's distinctly possible that the ACCC and the Australian courts could find against ZOS, or Zenimax as a whole, but be unable to actually enforce anything because they have no actual authority that ZOS respects.

Jurisdiction in international law is fun/complicated/a complete cluster****. Pick two.

Rubbish. Both arguments. International law and it being an supplier issue aren’t defenses. If your name is on the product and you’re the one making money from the sale it’s your responsibility.

The claim could be presented in Australia (barring any weird Australian law) and the reason for the issue doesn’t matter, it’s either Zenimax’s fault or an agent of Zenimax’s fault. As long as damages occurred in Australia I’d be shocked if it wasn’t heard.

Typical name everyone under the sun including the supplier and retailer and joint and several liability will take care of the rest.

PocketNova · April 2019

As an Australian I cannot fathom how fellow Aussies are actually able to play on the EU server. The ping/lag is worse than NA.

As for this case and this thread. All I have to say is lol. Neither the game nor the servers are based here. What exactly you expect to get out of this I've no idea.

You agreed to the Terms & Service in order to play the game. Deal with it. If you don't like it, move on and play something else.

Idinuse · April 2019

MJallday wrote: »

the OP's entire argument is flawed

he (i assume he) says "the product is not fit for purpose". whereas actually it is, its just slow.
being fit for purpose (not working) and slow (still working) are 2 different things.

he states he cant use it because of a "queue" - so what, its still working and actually the company has publically stated what its going to do to fix it. in short, have patience!

I sympathise with you AUS guys - and i do know from experience akamai is terrible (we stopped using them in the UK for an ecommerce company about 10 years ago for this very reason) - but there are workarounds - such as VPNS - which i appreciate is not ideal, but it is a workaround.

It isnt going to change, so as consumers you either need to vote with your feet and move to another MMO , or live with it.

this thread needs to be closed tbh. its gone on 3 pages longer than it should have @ZOS_GinaBruno

"I'm just a country lawyer"* so let me get this straight, if I'm an Australian and I buy a Koenigsegg sports car that was advertised to do 300km/h (you do the math lol) and it turns out it only does 50km/h and the determined reason shows it's a fault engine, and Koenigsegg refuses to change the engine free of cost to make the car go the advertised 300km/h (they offer a repair that will make the car go max 100km/h), that isn't a case for the Australian ACCC? Because the car runs "(fit for purpose)" still taking you from point A to point B albeit slow in max 50 or 100km/h "(still working)"? Maybe the argument is that it's illegal to drive faster than 120km/h on the roads anyway, so the 100km/h top speed should be sufficient?

Or maybe the car randomly stops, forcing you to wait 20mins before it works again? Well it runs sometimes "(fit for purpose)", still taking you from point A to point B, even if it takes longer to get to point B, and Koenigsegg offers a repair that makes the "cool down" only 10 mins "(still working)"?

Ok. Got it.

*(If you know the expression)
Edit* Changed Ferrari to Koenigsegg - go Sweden!

and minor polishing

jircris11 · April 2019

Androconium wrote: »

My rights

This is now a formally lodged complaint with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
The reference number is in the title.

Sadly the law in aus does not pertain to an online service such as a mmo. The game runs, its playable and under active development thus your queue complaint is not going to hold. Especially since they spoke about this. Imo ppl just need to chill the hell out.

Itzmichi · April 2019

If Australia actually doing something in this matter they definitely support "<- I'm with stupid" can't believe an actual country supports someones idioticy. Need to move to aus.

MattT1988 · April 2019

jircris11 wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

My rights

This is now a formally lodged complaint with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
The reference number is in the title.

Sadly the law in aus does not pertain to an online service such as a mmo. The game runs, its playable and under active development thus your queue complaint is not going to hold. Especially since they spoke about this. Imo ppl just need to chill the hell out.

LOL no it isn’t. Crash after crash after crash.

therift · April 2019

Shady_Knights wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Haenk wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

fix an issue they didn't even expect to have in the first place?

They already admitted they have known *for months* their servers could not handle the population.
Actually I think the issues have been there for *years*.

So there would have been plenty of time to adjust capacity, but they decided to live with it (and take the moey).

The actual statement from the Studio President says that the increase in population covered a period of weeks, and that the increase eventually exceeded all measures ZoS was able to make with existing hardware.

My impression of the statement is that a recent trend of population spikes initially appeared to be temporary, were initially attributed to game Events (Midyear Mayhem in January) and free play marketing, and could not be clearly identified as a permanent trend until there was precious little time to react.

Not sure what you are reading. But the announcement is posted here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467936/pc-eu-server-update-april-11/p1

"Starting in January we've had an influx of new players - we've have had some of our highest weekly average user, daily active user, and peak concurrent user numbers in the last six weeks since we launched on console back in 2015. So, it was in January when EU players started noticing degraded server performance. We made tweaks and updates to the service to free up extra database resources and other boosts to performance, which is why you have been seeing more and longer maintenance outages than normal in the last couple of months."

he goes on:

"However, in late March, we really saw a huge spike in the number of users logging in, which led to too many concurrent users for the platform to effectively support. As a result, players on PC EU have seen a severe degradation in service. This degradation started in January, but has greatly accelerated in the last week - lag spikes, disconnects, inability to zone from instance to instance, weird interactions with LFG, etc. These problems are greatly exacerbated by having serious load on the servers, as there are too many users for the hardware to handle."

So no, it's not a period of weeks, it's a period of Months (that they acknowledge). They tried to contain it, but were unsuccessful and they acknowledge that there's been a severe degradation in service. This degradation started in January.

They've finally have come clean now on the 11th April. Despite knowing these issues, they continually promoted festivals and free player weekends compounding the issue.

Don't forget that they've also said other fixes will announced late last year to fix client performance will be coming in sometime midway this year.

Good if you aren't impacted by all of this, but a lot of people are.

You and I said the same thing. You see that period as 'months', I see it as 'weeks'. But the point is that you are suffering terrible service, and that is all that matters.

therift · April 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

therift wrote: »

edit:extraneous text

Hate when you're working on a post, and then decided, "nah, can't be bothered," only for the fragment to then show up latter because it was saved to drafts? Yeah, me too. :P

Rem acu tetigisti.

Chaos2088 · April 2019

This game has always had server problems, I doubt it will changed anytime soon.

And yeah the log in que sucks big time.

Iskiab · April 2019

Idinuse wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

the OP's entire argument is flawed

he (i assume he) says "the product is not fit for purpose". whereas actually it is, its just slow.
being fit for purpose (not working) and slow (still working) are 2 different things.

he states he cant use it because of a "queue" - so what, its still working and actually the company has publically stated what its going to do to fix it. in short, have patience!

I sympathise with you AUS guys - and i do know from experience akamai is terrible (we stopped using them in the UK for an ecommerce company about 10 years ago for this very reason) - but there are workarounds - such as VPNS - which i appreciate is not ideal, but it is a workaround.

It isnt going to change, so as consumers you either need to vote with your feet and move to another MMO , or live with it.

this thread needs to be closed tbh. its gone on 3 pages longer than it should have @ZOS_GinaBruno

"I'm just a country lawyer"* so let me get this straight, if I'm an Australian and I buy a Koenigsegg sports car that was advertised to do 300km/h (you do the math lol) and it turns out it only does 50km/h and the determined reason shows it's a fault engine, and Koenigsegg refuses to change the engine free of cost to make the car go the advertised 300km/h (they offer a repair that will make the car go max 100km/h), that isn't a case for the Australian ACCC? Because the car runs "(fit for purpose)" still taking you from point A to point B albeit slow in max 50 or 100km/h "(still working)"? Maybe the argument is that it's illegal to drive faster than 120km/h on the roads anyway, so the 100km/h top speed should be sufficient?

Or maybe the car randomly stops, forcing you to wait 20mins before it works again? Well it runs sometimes "(fit for purpose)", still taking you from point A to point B, even if it takes longer to get to point B, and Koenigsegg offers a repair that makes the "cool down" only 10 mins "(still working)"?

Ok. Got it.

*(If you know the expression)
Edit* Changed Ferrari to Koenigsegg - go Sweden! and minor polishing

Good illustration.

If people really think the audience’s age doesn’t matter, imagine if this was an issue with a travel company/resort and not an MMO. Both cater to entertainment; one says oh well you suffer, the other gives away free things at the smallest inconvenience. Why? Age of the consumer and their resources/expectations, plus small losses suffered by many compared to one making a claim realistic.

I’m not even Australian, I just hate seeing people feel so powerless and telling others they’re powerless too.

MJallday · April 2019

Idinuse wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

the OP's entire argument is flawed

he (i assume he) says "the product is not fit for purpose". whereas actually it is, its just slow.
being fit for purpose (not working) and slow (still working) are 2 different things.

he states he cant use it because of a "queue" - so what, its still working and actually the company has publically stated what its going to do to fix it. in short, have patience!

I sympathise with you AUS guys - and i do know from experience akamai is terrible (we stopped using them in the UK for an ecommerce company about 10 years ago for this very reason) - but there are workarounds - such as VPNS - which i appreciate is not ideal, but it is a workaround.

It isnt going to change, so as consumers you either need to vote with your feet and move to another MMO , or live with it.

this thread needs to be closed tbh. its gone on 3 pages longer than it should have @ZOS_GinaBruno

"I'm just a country lawyer"* so let me get this straight, if I'm an Australian and I buy a Koenigsegg sports car that was advertised to do 300km/h (you do the math lol) and it turns out it only does 50km/h and the determined reason shows it's a fault engine, and Koenigsegg refuses to change the engine free of cost to make the car go the advertised 300km/h (they offer a repair that will make the car go max 100km/h), that isn't a case for the Australian ACCC? Because the car runs "(fit for purpose)" still taking you from point A to point B albeit slow in max 50 or 100km/h "(still working)"? Maybe the argument is that it's illegal to drive faster than 120km/h on the roads anyway, so the 100km/h top speed should be sufficient?

Or maybe the car randomly stops, forcing you to wait 20mins before it works again? Well it runs sometimes "(fit for purpose)", still taking you from point A to point B, even if it takes longer to get to point B, and Koenigsegg offers a repair that makes the "cool down" only 10 mins "(still working)"?

Ok. Got it.

*(If you know the expression)
Edit* Changed Ferrari to Koenigsegg - go Sweden! and minor polishing

your example (whilst good) - is not relevant to this case.

in the example above, you state that the koenigsegg/ferrari is advertised to do 300kmph and thats the reason you bought it - and its faulty because it only does 50. - yup, i see that, because it was specifically bought for that purpose and doesnt live up to it.

however, in ESO's case - ZOS does NOT advertise its uptime/availablity or service - in fact it specifically says it doesnt guarentee it! - and you (all of us) have already agreed to it by agreeing implicitly to the t+c's

in essence, you (me, everyone) are paying for something which cannot be guarenteed - and indeed affected by force majure.

so in conclusion, naff all you can do!

(go koenigsegg!)

Billdor · April 2019

Androconium wrote: »

Zenimax Australia promotes the massively-multiplayer online (MMO) video game entertainment package entitled "Elder Scrolls Online"

In the past week they have introduced a login queueing system to limit the number of concurrent players that can access their "PC-EU" megaserver.

My purchased products include:
An initial one-off cost for basic game play software "the game".
A six-month subscription for access to downloadable content (DLC) and other game play elements as defined in the ESO Plus subscription.

The product is no longer fit-for-pupose.

I am not seeking compensation; I am seeking an immediate remedy to the login queueing restriction, that by Zenimax' own comments, is to limit the number of concurrent players, which is in direct contrast to the concept of "MMO". Players located around the world should be able to login at any time and compete successfully with each other.

This is now not possible.

The current increase in player volume is the result of promotional activity in 2019, that has seen new customers overloading an unprepared system, a system that has had ongoing stability problems for the past 24 months.

Put bluntly, they have expended effort on attracting new business, without first ensuring that existing business could be provided with a fit-for-purpose and stable product.

(If I have represented something incorrectly, please identify the issue and I will amend the complaint)

Your attempt at legal talk is humorous and naive. Under EU Law the product is "fit-for-purpose". I suggest you do some research before you embarrass yourself even more.

Lord_Wrath · April 2019

It was easier years ago when I left my expectations for Zos as a real company. Nope, they just communicate only when they want to, only about vague things they choose. These new customers will soon learn how lousy they are.

TheRealPotoroo · April 2019

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

My rights

This is now a formally lodged complaint with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
The reference number is in the title.

The TOS that was agreed to has many restrictions. This isn't really the correct way to get what you want. Most likely it'll get a significant reduction in playing time (i.e. 0) Threatening legal actions doesn't work when you've agreed to arbitration already.

You've obviously never ran a business if you think that you cant get blindsided by a significant increase/decrease of orders of whatever good/service you sell.

I recommend thoroughly rereading the TOS before continuing.

The law overrides any company ToS. Companies say stuff that suits their interests all the time and it doesn't mean squat when the law says nope, can't do that.

TheRealPotoroo · April 2019

jircris11 wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

My rights

This is now a formally lodged complaint with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
The reference number is in the title.

Sadly the law in aus does not pertain to an online service such as a mmo. The game runs, its playable and under active development thus your queue complaint is not going to hold. Especially since they spoke about this. Imo ppl just need to chill the hell out.

Yeah, actually it does. Go ask Steam.

starkerealm · April 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Rubbish. Both arguments. International law and it being an supplier issue aren’t defenses. If your name is on the product and you’re the one making money from the sale it’s your responsibility.

I respect your commitment to believing the world should be simpler than it is. However, your understanding of jurisdiction in regards to international law is woefully insufficient for you to debate the points of merit.

starkerealm · April 2019

Undefwun wrote: »

b) Did I say 'just to screw with us'? That would be plain stupid. No, I said the protection they employed IS screwing us.

Unfortunately, you did just describe the position of some, in this thread. So, like I said, worth remembering, it is there for a reason.

starkerealm · April 2019

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

My rights

This is now a formally lodged complaint with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
The reference number is in the title.

Sadly the law in aus does not pertain to an online service such as a mmo. The game runs, its playable and under active development thus your queue complaint is not going to hold. Especially since they spoke about this. Imo ppl just need to chill the hell out.

Yeah, actually it does. Go ask Steam.

Except, Steam is a retailer. To the best of my recollection, Valve doesn't actually develop any MMOs.

So, here's the critical thing about the ACCC: It's primarily written around the idea that the other party will be the store you purchased the item from. The idea is the product won't be defective by design, but that individual examples may be. So, Steam is subject to ACCC claims in that context.

Specifically, in the case of Steam, the issue was that their refund policy (or, rather, their lack of a refund policy) violated Australian law. That is an ACCC case, as Australian retailers are required to offer refunds under certain circumstances, which Steam did not permit.

Idinuse · April 2019

MJallday wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

the OP's entire argument is flawed

he (i assume he) says "the product is not fit for purpose". whereas actually it is, its just slow.
being fit for purpose (not working) and slow (still working) are 2 different things.

he states he cant use it because of a "queue" - so what, its still working and actually the company has publically stated what its going to do to fix it. in short, have patience!

I sympathise with you AUS guys - and i do know from experience akamai is terrible (we stopped using them in the UK for an ecommerce company about 10 years ago for this very reason) - but there are workarounds - such as VPNS - which i appreciate is not ideal, but it is a workaround.

It isnt going to change, so as consumers you either need to vote with your feet and move to another MMO , or live with it.

this thread needs to be closed tbh. its gone on 3 pages longer than it should have @ZOS_GinaBruno

"I'm just a country lawyer"* so let me get this straight, if I'm an Australian and I buy a Koenigsegg sports car that was advertised to do 300km/h (you do the math lol) and it turns out it only does 50km/h and the determined reason shows it's a fault engine, and Koenigsegg refuses to change the engine free of cost to make the car go the advertised 300km/h (they offer a repair that will make the car go max 100km/h), that isn't a case for the Australian ACCC? Because the car runs "(fit for purpose)" still taking you from point A to point B albeit slow in max 50 or 100km/h "(still working)"? Maybe the argument is that it's illegal to drive faster than 120km/h on the roads anyway, so the 100km/h top speed should be sufficient?

Or maybe the car randomly stops, forcing you to wait 20mins before it works again? Well it runs sometimes "(fit for purpose)", still taking you from point A to point B, even if it takes longer to get to point B, and Koenigsegg offers a repair that makes the "cool down" only 10 mins "(still working)"?

Ok. Got it.

*(If you know the expression)
Edit* Changed Ferrari to Koenigsegg - go Sweden! and minor polishing

your example (whilst good) - is not relevant to this case.

in the example above, you state that the koenigsegg/ferrari is advertised to do 300kmph and thats the reason you bought it - and its faulty because it only does 50. - yup, i see that, because it was specifically bought for that purpose and doesnt live up to it.

however, in ESO's case - ZOS does NOT advertise its uptime/availablity or service - in fact it specifically says it doesnt guarentee it! - and you (all of us) have already agreed to it by agreeing implicitly to the t+c's

in essence, you (me, everyone) are paying for something which cannot be guarenteed - and indeed affected by force majure.

so in conclusion, naff all you can do!

(go koenigsegg!)

Well this is actually what Zos has advertised in regards to what their online service is.

Not exactly what you find in the game is it?

And again, no ToS or EuAs can dribble away a country's consumer laws. I.e you can't agree away that if you buy a supply of something and it's to be delivered a certain quantity each month, simply choosing not to deliver is ok just because you made an agreement that the seller can stop delivering it if he/it so chooses or just claiming the agreement gives the supplier right to not deliver anything if so chosen.

This is the reason, if you look closely, there are specific clauses that state that a country's or regions laws that deviate from the agreement have precedence over the agreement.

Besides, I find it a little amusing how scared and reverent some people seem to be of multi billion dollar companies. They're above the law! You have no rights! Your life isn't yours! Good luck with that! We In Europe i.e. are not. We see these entities getting lectured by countries' laws and government's/authorities all the time.

(ja go Koenigsegg! ^^b)

starkerealm · April 2019

Idinuse wrote: »

Well this is actually what Zos has advertised in regards to what their online service is.

Not exactly what you find in the game is it?

Which part is missing?

The game is multiplayer. Right? I mean, your friends can join you. It's not like they're forced to. You aren't forced to play with them if you don't want to, so you can "adventure alone." You can, "quest with friends."

Join an army of thousands? I mean, that is Cyrodiil. Granted, you won't see thousands on the screen at one time, but if you're going to try to tell me there aren't thousands of players pledged to each alliance, you haven't spent much time on the PvP boards, or watching PvP focused streams.

ZOS_JesC · April 2019

Greetings, since this thread is nonconstructive and has derailed, we have decided to close it. Thank you for your understanding.