ZOS- if you want to implement the change to DK's Wings- consider these pain points for adjustments:

Savos_Saren · April 2019

A DK is a primarily melee ranged class. It truly only has one class skill that reaches 28 meters for max effectiveness in Cyrodiil (thus benefiting from the Reach passive). Every other skill is confined to 22 meters or less. This is important because our Wings used to be able to defend us from ranged aggressors that we simply could not gap close or rush to. DKs will need somewhat of an overhaul in order to reach or burst down ranged attackers.

1.) Our gap closer is limited to 22 meters. That means that we can't gap close to anyone beyond 28+ meters.

2.) Our source of major expedition is limited to our gap closer. If we can't gap close- we can't "rush" to our aggressor. Also, our gap closer is bugged with the Y-axis.

3.) We have one class skill that hits at 28 meters (Stone Fist) and StamDKs can Take Flight to 28 meters. That's it. No other "reach" applicable class abilities.

4.) Our "heavy pressure" (ie: the excuse that DKs shouldn't have an execute) is based off of melee attacks. All of which can be ignored by ranged attackers. Our Leap (another quasi-excuse for an execute) is out damaged by other class's skills. So, they get hard hitting skills that can overshadow our "execute" AND have executes on top of that.

5.) Other classes have a 28+ meter range spammable execute. We can't compete with that... especially if we're so limited to one skill that reaches that distance.

6.) If you want to "even the odds" so that ranged Sorcs and ranged NBs can fight against DKs... then you need to give DKs a better toolkit to fight against ranged attackers. Again... we have one class skill that can reach them beyond 28 meters. So, even if we stun them with Stone Fist- we still have to gain major expedition from other random sources in order to get close enough to fight them within melee range. (again, because our class form of major expedition is tied to our gap closer)

TLDR: It's fine if you want to clip our wings to give MagSorcs and MagBlades more opportunities to burn us. But you need to give us a better chance to fight back at range. Our "high damage" is limited to melee and our gap closers can't reach anyone beyond 28+ meters.

ZarkingFrued · April 2019

Sounds legit

Skysenzz · April 2019

Let's also remember that most of all executes are not projectile, except Bow/Bow.
You can't really consider Leaps as a gap closer, it's an ultimate, which obviously can't be spammed, so talking about gap closing, how are you supposed to reach your enemy if you can't even build it in the 1st place(also it doesn't even hit your enemies when they are ~20meters away)?
Also DK rely a lot on his ultimates to regen your stats, in a long/intensive fight you will be most of the time using your ult to regen yourself, not to execute targets.

Savos_Saren · April 2019

Refardless- we’ll see on Monday.

Galarthor · April 2019

There is no point in discussing changes at this point since ZOS announced large scale rework of (some) classes. We have no idea how individual changes fit into grand picture.

E.g. the 1 sec cast time on shields would not have been a problem if every damage animation had a 3 second tavel time. Ofc, this would be a stupid idea, but it illustrates the point.

Savos_Saren · April 2019

Galarthor wrote: »

There is no point in discussing changes at this point since ZOS announced large scale rework of (some) classes. We have no idea how individual changes fit into grand picture.

E.g. the 1 sec cast time on shields would not have been a problem if every damage animation had a 3 second tavel time. Ofc, this would be a stupid idea, but it illustrates the point.

@Galarthor
There's always a point to discuss something preemptively. MagSorcs were very vocal about Ward changes during the PTS- and some of the changes were adjusted before it went live.

But, I made sure to list it as "pain points"- because that's what ZOS looks for in Classes.

ochsinator · April 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Refardless- we’ll see on Monday.

The update with new skills comes out Monday?

likecats · April 2019

Have you tried using force pulse? It will allow you to fight people at range.

Personally, I have never been successful at killing some just by spamming force pulse. I also don't find it worthwhile to slot a skill just to be able to do *some* damage to 2/10 classes, but many pro DKs have continually advised me to use this skill, so maybe I've been doing something wrong all along

Savos_Saren · April 2019

ochsinator wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Refardless- we’ll see on Monday.

The update with new skills comes out Monday?

@ochsinator
The PTS comes out on Monday. So PC people will be able to see the new skills/passives.

Alucardo · April 2019

It's very rare to find a magblade 28 meters away. They generally rely on the fear, soul harvest, bow proc combo to kill anything, so chances are they're up in your face anyway. I've never fought a magblade that was outside spitting distance.
Sorcs had no problem killing DKs anyway (but slowly) since crushing shock was made unreflectable and curse unblockable. This is why a majority of the wings complaints were from magblades.
Against a decent mDK who kept their wings up, they had 100% immunity from EVERYTHING the magblade threw at them. Even their spammable would heal the DK they were fighting.
I'm fine with adjusting the range of your gap closer, or even buffing it somehow, if that's what you're getting at.

Savos_Saren · April 2019

Alucardo wrote: »

It's very rare to find a magblade 28 meters away. They generally rely on the fear, soul harvest, bow proc combo to kill anything, so chances are they're up in your face anyway. I've never fought a magblade that was outside spitting distance.
Sorcs had no problem killing DKs anyway (but slowly) since crushing shock was made unreflectable and curse unblockable. This is why a majority of the wings complaints were from magblades.
Against a decent mDK who kept their wings up, they had 100% immunity from EVERYTHING the magblade threw at them. Even their spammable would heal the DK they were fighting.
I'm fine with adjusting the range of your gap closer, or even buffing it somehow, if that's what you're getting at.

That's my point. I'm accepting that ZOS wants to open up the opportunity for MagBlades/Sorcs to have a better chance at fighting DKs. But, with this change in wings, ZOS needs to realize that our class skills would need to change a bit. The range of some of our attacks (Leap, Eruption, FoO, Chains).

Perhaps they'd have to adjust a couple of our ranged abilities to hit harder as well- since the excuse for DKs to not have an execute is that our pressure (which is from melee range) is the execute. Hell, they could take a skill like Stone Fist and give it a modified execute (like it could hit harder on high-health targets).

Galarthor · April 2019

@Savos_Saren , sure some things don't need a lot of testing or additional information in order to be able to judge them properly - i.e. implementing 1 sec cast time on shields while everything else stays the same. It is possible to judge these changes b/c you know all the other variables since they don't change.

However, this time we apparently get a large scale overhaul, so you don't know the other variables. The number of unknowns is simply too high at the moment.

Savos_Saren · April 2019

Yep. That's why I'm excited about Monday's patch. We'll be able to check out all the class changes.

Minno · April 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Yep. That's why I'm excited about Monday's patch. We'll be able to check out all the class changes.

Yea we need to wait for Monday, and can't wait to see what wheeler/Gilliam come up with.

DK gap closer updated would work best based on what I'm reading.

cpuScientist · April 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

It's very rare to find a magblade 28 meters away. They generally rely on the fear, soul harvest, bow proc combo to kill anything, so chances are they're up in your face anyway. I've never fought a magblade that was outside spitting distance.
Sorcs had no problem killing DKs anyway (but slowly) since crushing shock was made unreflectable and curse unblockable. This is why a majority of the wings complaints were from magblades.
Against a decent mDK who kept their wings up, they had 100% immunity from EVERYTHING the magblade threw at them. Even their spammable would heal the DK they were fighting.
I'm fine with adjusting the range of your gap closer, or even buffing it somehow, if that's what you're getting at.

That's my point. I'm accepting that ZOS wants to open up the opportunity for MagBlades/Sorcs to have a better chance at fighting DKs. But, with this change in wings, ZOS needs to realize that our class skills would need to change a bit. The range of some of our attacks (Leap, Eruption, FoO, Chains).

Perhaps they'd have to adjust a couple of our ranged abilities to hit harder as well- since the excuse for DKs to not have an execute is that our pressure (which is from melee range) is the execute. Hell, they could take a skill like Stone Fist and give it a modified execute (like it could hit harder on high-health targets).

I mostly agree yeah. Though if gap closers can reach max range then what's the point of range? Though I really agree that pressure and overall damage should be added to the kit in the form of dots doing execute damage similar to inject. Like keep the damage they do right now, and then add to it during execute. Leap too should act as an execute a real one. As in if they are below 25 do 25-50 more damage.

I agree closing the gap on ranged toons should be safer MagPlar faces this same issue and is usually forced into mistform because of this along with snares. So for those 2 toons sake especially something needs to be changed maybe their gap closers extended is part of the answer.

MagDK leap should be max range for sure it's an ultimate.

lucky_Sage · April 2019

DoTs in pvp need to be looked at unless they are bleeds they seem subpar
Bgs these days are mostly range build petsrocs and magblades and bowtards

Apox · April 2019

agreed. forum icon is dk icon but ive since moved to magsorc.

let em keep their wings

BRODY · April 2019

Anybody give me information, who and where sayed about change dk wings??

Savos_Saren · April 2019

BRODY wrote: »

Anybody give me information, who and where sayed about change dk wings??

@BRODY it was on a stream when the game was being previewed a few weeks ago. Tomorrow, however, we’ll have a better update. The PTS is being released and we’ll have a more accurate description of the changes.

Remember- none of this is set in stone until the PTS cycle is complete as well.

cpuScientist · April 2019

As it currently stands the problem with magDK after it loses its wings is the same as magPlar magDen to an extent and even magBlade. Cannot dodge and sprint so what can they do besides mist-form... And mistform has a LIST of drawbacks just to use the skill and then the skill itself is not really Fantastic.

I truly feel mistform needs to be moved out of the vamp tree and into mage tree or something. IF NOT there really needs to be something else added. I totally understand the want to keep wings, *** the neeeed to keep wings as is, once that is gone and the damage reduction is put in its place, the issue of no dodge will reappear, and thus magDK will be relagated to group play again and be tougher to solo on.

I really do feel like wings is a problem skill, it negatively affects tooo many playstyles and option. HOWEVER I really hope some tweaks are made to make the reliance on wings the CRUTCHING on wings a thing of the past, if not leave wings alone until you figure something out. AS BADLY as I want it changed.