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Console PVE needs Combat Metrics BADLY
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StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What's worse is the people with pitiful DPS that are wasting the time of 11 other people. Not wanting to add this is essentially saying let's waste everyone's time for the sake of one person's feelings who may not even realize they're underperforming and therefore the problem will ultimately never get resolved.
Hypothetical:
My meter says I am pulling 6k more dps then you are.
Your meter says you are top dps by 12k, wanting to kick lowest dps.
3rd dps claims they are as well as i am middle of pack for dps, plus stating you are 3rd from bottom in dps
The rest all claim that everyone is about 1% off from eachother dps wise all are even.
Lowest dps listed is a support / heal build who has highest hps listed
So, who cheesed their meter who gets kicked?
Only thing I know is that I would hate to be running with that group - the attitude stinks. It’s legitimising elitist in-game bullying and is a rancid way of either getting a good group together or trying to improve as a team.
100% agree. Cant prove whose right or wrong, and what happens is a circle jerk of egos trying to push others around.
Meters, metrics, logs are utterly pointless unless doing top tier content. Everything else can be fixed with advice and tips.Edited by StormeReigns on April 13, 2019 5:52PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SkoobySnaxx wrote: »but thats the thing though. No one is progressing for months because they are not trying to improve! theres no improvement unless theres combat metrics. same thing 5k dps everyday get a group of 12 ppl and have 4 ppl in the group pull 10k dps for months and the issue will be "because this isnt dying fast enough" itll be easier to progress if we knew what peoples time on target is and say "hey work on this" i dont see why that is toxic. how bout i be in a progression group and use trash pots and just light attack the boss and pop shields for 5 months in. Just completely waste peoples time that are trying their hardest yeah?
Simple. Your group dps tests a dummy before you go. A pot isn't gonna be the reason you get stuck for weeks.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is completely fair for serious progression trials groups. Every has a right to know what each dps is pulling every boss fight. This should also be applied to healers and tanks to see how good up times on certain debuffs like alkosh and combat prayer.
I know this would be used to shame and grief pugs in dungeons and pug trials but the tool is widely used on pc. Why shouldnt it be a feature on consoles?
Maybe have the option to not show your dps when running pugs but if you're raiding seriously in your trials guild, allow everyone to see what your dps is
It's easy to see if tanks or healers are doing their jobs but dps can easily mask their dps ons raid environment assuming they follow mechanics.
At OP, I suggest talking to your guild leader who you think is underperforming and have him clip an entire boss fight to see what they exactly do. I caught a dps literally heavy and light attack spamming in his clips and he improved after some advice
It is not a right of yours just because it would be useful.2 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭TBH people hating on metrics because 'it makes people kick people!!!!'
...It also helps people improve. You have a prog group, people share their metrics, you can say; "Okay it looks like your uptime on these VITAL ADDS THAT NEED TO DIE is basically zero. Next week, can you focus more on targeting them when they're up?" or "Hey it looks like your uptime on combat prayer is low, you only used it 3 times in the fight, can you work on putting that into your rotation?"
Being able to compare and see what people are or are not doing is a valid way to help progress.
It's not a progression group if people don't actually progress...PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.3 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RogueShark wrote: »TBH people hating on metrics because 'it makes people kick people!!!!'
...It also helps people improve. You have a prog group, people share their metrics, you can say; "Okay it looks like your uptime on these VITAL ADDS THAT NEED TO DIE is basically zero. Next week, can you focus more on targeting them when they're up?" or "Hey it looks like your uptime on combat prayer is low, you only used it 3 times in the fight, can you work on putting that into your rotation?"
Being able to compare and see what people are or are not doing is a valid way to help progress.
It's not a progression group if people don't actually progress...
That, in theory is what they are supposed to be used for. In practice, they are tools to help progressive guilds get better; which is a good tool. As well, they are mostly tools for unwarranted flaming and shame by people not even in progressive groups or guilds cause they want to be big epeen boys in randoms.5 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lmao at all the snowflakes in this thread. Kicking low DPS should be the expectation in a hard mode trials group. I pity console player who don’t have access to basic information that would aid them in trial progression.2 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭RogueShark wrote: »TBH people hating on metrics because 'it makes people kick people!!!!'
...It also helps people improve. You have a prog group, people share their metrics, you can say; "Okay it looks like your uptime on these VITAL ADDS THAT NEED TO DIE is basically zero. Next week, can you focus more on targeting them when they're up?" or "Hey it looks like your uptime on combat prayer is low, you only used it 3 times in the fight, can you work on putting that into your rotation?"
Being able to compare and see what people are or are not doing is a valid way to help progress.
It's not a progression group if people don't actually progress...
That, in theory is what they are supposed to be used for. In practice, they are tools to help progressive guilds get better; which is a good tool. As well, they are mostly tools for unwarranted flaming and shame by people not even in progressive groups or guilds cause they want to be big epeen boys in randoms.
If you're running with people who want to degrade you and insult you as opposed to trying to help you and the entire group improve as a whole and progress, the issue isn't metrics: it's the group you're running with.
PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.0 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RogueShark wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »TBH people hating on metrics because 'it makes people kick people!!!!'
...It also helps people improve. You have a prog group, people share their metrics, you can say; "Okay it looks like your uptime on these VITAL ADDS THAT NEED TO DIE is basically zero. Next week, can you focus more on targeting them when they're up?" or "Hey it looks like your uptime on combat prayer is low, you only used it 3 times in the fight, can you work on putting that into your rotation?"
Being able to compare and see what people are or are not doing is a valid way to help progress.
It's not a progression group if people don't actually progress...
That, in theory is what they are supposed to be used for. In practice, they are tools to help progressive guilds get better; which is a good tool. As well, they are mostly tools for unwarranted flaming and shame by people not even in progressive groups or guilds cause they want to be big epeen boys in randoms.
If you're running with people who want to degrade you and insult you as opposed to trying to help you and the entire group improve as a whole and progress, the issue isn't metrics: it's the group you're running with.
Most, if not vast majority of all progressive guilds/groups I've encountered have sought to help and get better, even if they pick up a rando who is lacking in an area, using logs, meters metrics to assist, offering advice and help using the logs as a benefit.
Where the sourpusses come into play is when and in often found in random basic mormal normal dungeons, and sometimes in the next slightly harder difficultly, be heroics, mythic or vet dungeons. Trying to boss around others with thier non existant weight of worth, while cheesing the meters.
It a catch 22. Careful what you wish for, you just might get it situation.Edited by StormeReigns on April 13, 2019 6:42PM2 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭I mean, I'm on PC so people already have access to this. I've dealt with maybe once or twice some toxic pug carrying on about how they're pulling X dps. You don't need metrics to necessarily know if the DPS is low in vet DLC, and in rando normals someone can be pulling stupid-low dps and you'll still skate through it perfectly fine.
In my opinion, metrics benefits far outweight the cons.PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.2 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just want CMX so I can see what I’m pulling in raid and adjust my build, skills, etc to compensate and be able to see what performs the best for me personally.
I couldn’t care less about using it to single out other people, as I’m not a raid lead. If my lead feels everyone is performing up to par then that’s that, I’ll worry about myself and as long as I know I’m doing what I need to and not holding anybody back I’m chilling. If he decides to remove people from the group for inadequate performance that is also at his discretion and he has every right to do so.
TL;DR - please bring CMX to console.Edited by templesus on April 13, 2019 6:53PM2 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SkoobySnaxx wrote: »Anyone else on console sick of progressing hardmode vet trials for months with doodoo dps? I spend so much gold on good pots and practice my rotation when im 100% sure theres some people in the group using trash pots cuz theyre cheap and not having a good time on target. Console really needs combat metrics to expose those whos just wasting other peoples time trying to get carried through a content. ZOS i hope you guys make this happen for console players. Lets say were doing vmaw and after a wipe or a complete fight we can just type "/dps rhakat" or "/dps Hulk" and itll pop up our dmg. itll be a pretty sweet change for pve if we can have that!
This is more why we should not have it than the opposite3 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »There definitely should be a scoreboard that you can view during the dungeon for sure. Too many times DPS is bad and instead of admitting that their dps is low they blame the tank or the healer and that should be unacceptable.
At the given time there is no way to prove dps is low so most groups will say DPS is fine when in reality tanks or healers pull more DPS than the actual DPS.
With a scoreboard people can view total damage to make sure people are doing decent damage, deaths so that people know who might not be trying to avoid mechanics, healing out so people can know that their healers are doing their job, pick ups so that if someone has low damage or healing at least people know they are picking up dead people.
Now this is not an elitist thing, but rather if this info was available more people would do their job. People say it is toxic, but in DCUO they had this system and it actually did the opposite. The fact that all this was viewable made everyone up their game and become better players. If people can not see they are bad and they think they are good, the numbers are needed so they can try to improve. And again I'm not saying they need to be top level but there is no reason a DPS can't do 20k+ especially with how powerful light attacks are tbh.
I also saw a lot of people get kicked because there damage were slightly lower than the rest by about 2k3 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Maybe if turning it off so nobody can see yours is an option
And for progression the group leader could require everyone to turn it on at the begining (and you could kick people not wanting to activate it)
This way we have the best of bot world2 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thing is, in the trial groups with my guild on PS4 we just discuss overall tactics & mechs to improve - and it works. Don’t need detailed dps etc logs to see who did what - as we can’t see, we all take collective responsibility & learn together. It’s a healthy way to do things.
See, even if it was used in a way that was meant to be ‘helpful’, it might seem as if finger pointing & blame/shaming was being done - people trying to ‘help’ can be amazingly patronising without realising - and it would destroy the collective feeling of all working together that makes trials actually fun.
And this is the point - that these combat metric / logs /whatever seem to take all the fun out of the game and make it something serious that you have to ‘work’ on.
7 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Maybe if turning it off so nobody can see yours is an option
And for progression the group leader could require everyone to turn it on at the begining (and you could kick people not wanting to activate it)
This way we have the best of bot world
Well not really as it puts pressure on people to have it switched on or they get kicked (nice)2 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hallothiel wrote: »Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Maybe if turning it off so nobody can see yours is an option
And for progression the group leader could require everyone to turn it on at the begining (and you could kick people not wanting to activate it)
This way we have the best of bot world
Well not really as it puts pressure on people to have it switched on or they get kicked (nice)
Yeah now that you say it like that its not as good...0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »Protect the potatoes and prevent contributing folks make real progression. Seems very fair.
Honestly not everyone loves running FOTM builds and we're all know what happened if you don't run those, you lack dps. Honestly a way to measure would be nice but gamers can't be trusted to not betoxic trash to others who are "weak" simply because they run a build they prefer vs the high dps build everyone else runs.
Honesty, what are you doing in a progression guild then if you dont want your gear to be top notch, same as your performance?0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This isn't a problem with the tools or the game but rather the individual players responsible for those things and no policy can change them.Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »I used skada and recount when I played WoW. Frequently they were used for nothing more than kicking people from pugs, bragging about how much DPS someone did or to shame a player. There were times where a single bad run of an otherwise decent player resulted in a vote kick that it should not have happened. I'm all for some mechanism for a player to see their own metrics. However I have yet to see a tool that is restricted player only and until such time feel they are better left out of games as they have too many negatives and not enough positives.
Unfortunately, we live in a time when most seem to act like elitist pricks -- not just the actual elite who might have a thin entitlement to act that way.1 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »There definitely should be a scoreboard that you can view during the dungeon for sure. Too many times DPS is bad and instead of admitting that their dps is low they blame the tank or the healer and that should be unacceptable.
At the given time there is no way to prove dps is low so most groups will say DPS is fine when in reality tanks or healers pull more DPS than the actual DPS.
With a scoreboard people can view total damage to make sure people are doing decent damage, deaths so that people know who might not be trying to avoid mechanics, healing out so people can know that their healers are doing their job, pick ups so that if someone has low damage or healing at least people know they are picking up dead people.
Now this is not an elitist thing, but rather if this info was available more people would do their job. People say it is toxic, but in DCUO they had this system and it actually did the opposite. The fact that all this was viewable made everyone up their game and become better players. If people can not see they are bad and they think they are good, the numbers are needed so they can try to improve. And again I'm not saying they need to be top level but there is no reason a DPS can't do 20k+ especially with how powerful light attacks are tbh.
I also saw a lot of people get kicked because there damage were slightly lower than the rest by about 2k
When dps is not enough, you should at least kick the one doing the least to make progress, nothing wrong with it. What dps log prevents is tank kick a low cp dude actually doing more dmg than a high cp potato.1 -
xenowarrior92eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hi, try pc we have plenty...btw come to EU server as well...seems the whole ESO population migrated to our side for some reason.0 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »There definitely should be a scoreboard that you can view during the dungeon for sure. Too many times DPS is bad and instead of admitting that their dps is low they blame the tank or the healer and that should be unacceptable.
At the given time there is no way to prove dps is low so most groups will say DPS is fine when in reality tanks or healers pull more DPS than the actual DPS.
With a scoreboard people can view total damage to make sure people are doing decent damage, deaths so that people know who might not be trying to avoid mechanics, healing out so people can know that their healers are doing their job, pick ups so that if someone has low damage or healing at least people know they are picking up dead people.
Now this is not an elitist thing, but rather if this info was available more people would do their job. People say it is toxic, but in DCUO they had this system and it actually did the opposite. The fact that all this was viewable made everyone up their game and become better players. If people can not see they are bad and they think they are good, the numbers are needed so they can try to improve. And again I'm not saying they need to be top level but there is no reason a DPS can't do 20k+ especially with how powerful light attacks are tbh.
I also saw a lot of people get kicked because there damage were slightly lower than the rest by about 2k
Yeah but at the same time if you get kicked because your damage was 2k less overall then these are the jerks that would kick you for anything regardless of DPS because 2k damage is literally a little more than 1 light attack in this game lol.
So those same people would be the ones that kick you for not doing a speed run or kick you because you need to change your moves. Some people just like to cause issues and they will find a way no matter what.0 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »There definitely should be a scoreboard that you can view during the dungeon for sure. Too many times DPS is bad and instead of admitting that their dps is low they blame the tank or the healer and that should be unacceptable.
At the given time there is no way to prove dps is low so most groups will say DPS is fine when in reality tanks or healers pull more DPS than the actual DPS.
With a scoreboard people can view total damage to make sure people are doing decent damage, deaths so that people know who might not be trying to avoid mechanics, healing out so people can know that their healers are doing their job, pick ups so that if someone has low damage or healing at least people know they are picking up dead people.
Now this is not an elitist thing, but rather if this info was available more people would do their job. People say it is toxic, but in DCUO they had this system and it actually did the opposite. The fact that all this was viewable made everyone up their game and become better players. If people can not see they are bad and they think they are good, the numbers are needed so they can try to improve. And again I'm not saying they need to be top level but there is no reason a DPS can't do 20k+ especially with how powerful light attacks are tbh.
I also saw a lot of people get kicked because there damage were slightly lower than the rest by about 2k
Yeah but at the same time if you get kicked because your damage was 2k less overall then these are the jerks that would kick you for anything regardless of DPS because 2k damage is literally a little more than 1 light attack in this game lol.
So those same people would be the ones that kick you for not doing a speed run or kick you because you need to change your moves. Some people just like to cause issues and they will find a way no matter what.
Agreed0 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just do a group parse before every hard run and have people clip their dps. If Their numbers aren't up to par or they refuse to send the parse because they know their damage is horrible, replace them. Simple as that. You don't need combat metrics during the trial when you can solve the problem before the trial starts and save the headache. And the people who think that's elitism think that everyone should be given all vMA weapons, perfected gear, and skins just for showing up instead of putting in legitimate effort to improve their tanking/healing/dps/raid awareness.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |0 -
Wandering_Immigrant✭✭✭✭Consoles should definitely have access to combat metrics, especially in light of PC being given an official parser. I'm honestly kind of insulted, like ZOS thinks everyone playing on a console is just some casual who doesn't care about their performance. I'm sorry my console in newer than my laptop, ZOS, do you own stock in Dell or something, why am I your red-headed step-child?
Now, I understand the concerns about player shaming, this is bad, it's not productive, shaming someone for their performance doesn't make them want to get better it just makes them want to avoid group content, which in the long run makes them worse at group content as it pushes them further into the bad habits they pick up soloing.
So IMO combat metrics should be implemented something like this:
-You can view your own metrics, not just damage done, but healing done, damage taken, damage blocked, damage dodged, buff/debugging uptime, everything relevant.
-You can view the metrics of anyone who entered in a pre-made with you, same as your own, as you probably know each other and are less likely to be toxic to each other. And imo progression groups and trial guilds SHOULD have the right to be discrimatory.
-Anyone entered through a RDF is hidden. Not even shown as anonymous. BUT, you can view the community average for the instance you're in separated by role over the course of the past week or month or however long ZOS can afford to store that information. The way people who only ever PUG still have a point of reference for comparison's sake of where they stand and where they can improve.
-BY REQUEST ONLY you can offer to show your metrics to someone outside you pre-made, but this can only be done after the run to avoid people being pressured to show their live metrics. This way if you're a group with someone who's being genuinely helpful and wants to offer advice the option exists for them to see where you can improve.0 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »
I’m sure there are ups and downs. But this sort of thing? From what I’ve heard it is extremely invasive. If I were on computer, I would quit doing group content altogether. Those of us who aren’t competitive gamers don’t give two craps about combat metrics and are sick to death of the expectation that we WANT to be competitive gamers. Let the competitive gamers use this, fine... opt in basis only so the rest of us can be left alone.Edited by Starlock on April 13, 2019 11:03PM3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »There definitely should be a scoreboard that you can view during the dungeon for sure. Too many times DPS is bad and instead of admitting that their dps is low they blame the tank or the healer and that should be unacceptable.
At the given time there is no way to prove dps is low so most groups will say DPS is fine when in reality tanks or healers pull more DPS than the actual DPS.
With a scoreboard people can view total damage to make sure people are doing decent damage, deaths so that people know who might not be trying to avoid mechanics, healing out so people can know that their healers are doing their job, pick ups so that if someone has low damage or healing at least people know they are picking up dead people.
Now this is not an elitist thing, but rather if this info was available more people would do their job. People say it is toxic, but in DCUO they had this system and it actually did the opposite. The fact that all this was viewable made everyone up their game and become better players. If people can not see they are bad and they think they are good, the numbers are needed so they can try to improve. And again I'm not saying they need to be top level but there is no reason a DPS can't do 20k+ especially with how powerful light attacks are tbh.
I also saw a lot of people get kicked because there damage were slightly lower than the rest by about 2k
When dps is not enough, you should at least kick the one doing the least to make progress, nothing wrong with it. What dps log prevents is tank kick a low cp dude actually doing more dmg than a high cp potato.
If someone is off by that small, it isn't the dps not being enough that's the issue. It's just an easy scapegoat.2 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »
I’m sure there are ups and downs. But this sort of thing? From what I’ve heard it is extremely invasive. If I were on computer, I would quit doing group content altogether. Those of us who aren’t competitive gamers don’t give two craps about combat metrics and are sick to death of the expectation that we WANT to be competitive gamers. Let the competitive gamers use this, fine... opt in basis only so the rest of us can be left alone.
Agree, 100%. I'm not happy at all about the PC stuff they're wanting to implement. Admittedly, I don't group (mega-ping), but I just wonder if it's going to wind up that one has to register on that 3rd party site, claim names, and so on - just to make sure no one else can mess with your character names, when you're only a solo player.
I remember some "name-claim" issues over the years for various games and even business sites. I have some real issues about online privacy....1 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »LeagueTroll wrote: »Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »There definitely should be a scoreboard that you can view during the dungeon for sure. Too many times DPS is bad and instead of admitting that their dps is low they blame the tank or the healer and that should be unacceptable.
At the given time there is no way to prove dps is low so most groups will say DPS is fine when in reality tanks or healers pull more DPS than the actual DPS.
With a scoreboard people can view total damage to make sure people are doing decent damage, deaths so that people know who might not be trying to avoid mechanics, healing out so people can know that their healers are doing their job, pick ups so that if someone has low damage or healing at least people know they are picking up dead people.
Now this is not an elitist thing, but rather if this info was available more people would do their job. People say it is toxic, but in DCUO they had this system and it actually did the opposite. The fact that all this was viewable made everyone up their game and become better players. If people can not see they are bad and they think they are good, the numbers are needed so they can try to improve. And again I'm not saying they need to be top level but there is no reason a DPS can't do 20k+ especially with how powerful light attacks are tbh.
I also saw a lot of people get kicked because there damage were slightly lower than the rest by about 2k
When dps is not enough, you should at least kick the one doing the least to make progress, nothing wrong with it. What dps log prevents is tank kick a low cp dude actually doing more dmg than a high cp potato.
If someone is off by that small, it isn't the dps not being enough that's the issue. It's just an easy scapegoat.
Yes it can totally be lack of dps. Especially when the less bad one is not good nuf either.0