At what point you think the game would become P2W?
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xxthir13enxx✭✭✭✭✭
✭xxthir13enxx wrote: »A PvP consumable item purchased from crown store that after X amount of kills...you Nuke server! All enemies in zone die...
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Monsieur✭✭✭Step 1: buy game
Step 2: buy subscription to game to play dlc
Step 3: purchase additional dlc because not all dlc is dlc
Step 4: buy expensive gamble crates because a costume you liked is only available by exchanging real money for fake money to gamble away at a chance for a fake item
Step 5: make new character because you finished all content on old character
Step 6: purchase unlocks for all the things you did on first character so you don’t have to play the game on your second character
Step 7: purchase new spots to make new character
Step 8: repeat step 6, despite investing many times over what Step 1 cost.
ZOS must be rolling in their vaults of gold laughing, all whilst we’re arguing over the definition of Insanity (I mean P2W).
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xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, the thing is, if the line for some seems to only be the ability to buy something in crown store that isn't available in game and is super powerful.
If that's the line, then ZoS has a lot of room for abuse and IMO we are at the point of abuse with things they are labeling as "convenience".
Other games are often called P2W for selling convenience, but for some reason, maybe b/c some players have played those hardcore P2W games, they have a lot of tolerance and let ZoS get away with anything that isn't that bad.
Selling skyshards b/c you cleared it on one character opens up the gate to sell anything you've done on one character: guilds, levels, weapons that drop in any content (this is even easier to call convenience IMO b/c you can already just move gear from one to another character without doing extra work like leveling or skyshard collection, so it would literally be convenience to just sell duplicates of gear).
At this point, they've also lost all justification for not selling max level characters, class change tokens, alliance change tokens, etc. To me, it was always about the fact you had to do the work to have the ability to have multiple maxed out guys that can give you a lot of options in the game - you can buy more and more of that "work" now.
And those same people that say selling things you can't get in the game that are powerful is the only P2W line - they also don't think Wardens, Necromancers, Jewelry Crafting, gear drops, etc. are P2W and they fit the definition of not available unless you buy it.
So, IMO, there is way too much gray area for abuse and ZoS is all over it.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC4 -
Zaketh✭✭✭Kuramas9tails wrote: »I only call it a Pay to Win if it gives an advantage over other players in which they can not achieve any other way than paying for it. So if ZOS added a new Skill tree that you can only access through buying, yes, that is pay to win. If crown crates added bonus sets that are better than in game sets, pay to win.
But with that last statement, are DLC sets that bind pay to win?
Hmmmm.
But under your definition a brand new person could come into the game have a completelly maxed character with all the best armor and weapons and all skills without playing a minute of the actual game. You would not define that as a win. They just bypassed 100s of hours of gameplay.
What do they win, though? Other than the opportunity to walk around town going "look at my shinies!! Look at them!!" all the while knowing nothing about the game, except that they'll most likely die 20 times or so running normal FG1?
Not much win in that, imho
Edit: because spelling is hard w/o coffeeEdited by Zaketh on April 5, 2019 4:47PMNA PS42 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1) how does mere gold let you "win"? Plenty of BoP stuff in Trials & hardmodes. Can't buy your way there. And even if you get the gear, you still have to know how to use it (ie., an idiot who buys a carry & gets Cool Stuff, still can't break 30k dps on a dummy)
Also, WoW has "buying gold" - you can trade subscription tokens for in-game gold, both allowing one person to "buy" gold & allowing another person to play without paying a sub.
Modern MMOs are adding this in, not as a "p2w" feature, but in an attempt to stop the third-party gold sellers & reduce hacking & stolen accounts.
2) If content being in an expansion/chapter/etc is "paywalled" and "p2w" then every game that's ever sold an expansion fits in your definition. And it's so broad that it's worthless.2 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Stronger gear or items that are not available in game or can only be obtained in game via an unreasonable grind. For example, in f2p games they tend to offer items for cash that would otherwise take months or even years to earn in game through natural progression and no amount of skill will hasten that time due to the daily limits placed on them or the in-game currency.
Like most things in life, people will apply tags to almost anything without fully understanding what they are commenting on and half the time, the p2w shouts are a load of codswallop.
Some of these people should play a f2p game then come back and properly discuss what actually constitutes as p2w.
DLC/expansions are not p2w. Almost every single game that implements dlc usually has better gear contained within that dlc. I mean, if the necro class is considered p2w, then by the same token so are vMA weapons. Last i checked, you can't access Wrothgar without owning that dlc whether that be via a sub or buying it outright.
Edited by Prof_Bawbag on April 5, 2019 5:11PM0 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, the thing is, if the line for some seems to only be the ability to buy something in crown store that isn't available in game and is super powerful.
If that's the line, then ZoS has a lot of room for abuse and IMO we are at the point of abuse with things they are labeling as "convenience".
This is a very important aspect to recognize. I recently tried out a so-called "free to play" MMO. What I saw there is the level of abuse a company like Zenimax could inflict on its customer base while still getting folks to view it as non-p2w. Our beloved ESO isn't to the horrific level this game was, but it has over time been pushing more in that direction. As you say later, there is little to no reason for Zenimax to refuse to offer max level characters and all these other things under the moniker of "convenience" if they go through with these skyshard packs being crown store purchases. I suppose maybe that's what some folks want because they've already been conditioned to think these sorts of business practices are acceptable? Honestly, I wouldn't have such a huge problem with it myself if the crown store price points were actually reasonable.1 -
dbgager✭✭✭Kuramas9tails wrote: »I only call it a Pay to Win if it gives an advantage over other players in which they can not achieve any other way than paying for it. So if ZOS added a new Skill tree that you can only access through buying, yes, that is pay to win. If crown crates added bonus sets that are better than in game sets, pay to win.
But with that last statement, are DLC sets that bind pay to win? Hmmmm.
But under your definition a brand new person could come into the game have a completelly maxed character with all the best armor and weapons and all skills without playing a minute of the actual game. You would not define that as a win. They just bypassed 100s of hours of gameplay.
What do they win, though? Other than the opportunity to walk around town going "look at my shinies!! Look at them!!" all the while knowing nothing about the game, except that they'll most likely die 20 times or so running normal FG1?
Not much win in that, imho
Edit: because spelling is hard w/o coffee
But they have absolutely the same power as anyone playing the game. Absolutely nothing differentiates them from that person who has spent 100s of hours in the game. They have reached the pinnacle of possibilities. All by doing nothing but paying some money.0 -
Zaketh✭✭✭Kuramas9tails wrote: »I only call it a Pay to Win if it gives an advantage over other players in which they can not achieve any other way than paying for it. So if ZOS added a new Skill tree that you can only access through buying, yes, that is pay to win. If crown crates added bonus sets that are better than in game sets, pay to win.
But with that last statement, are DLC sets that bind pay to win? Hmmmm.
But under your definition a brand new person could come into the game have a completelly maxed character with all the best armor and weapons and all skills without playing a minute of the actual game. You would not define that as a win. They just bypassed 100s of hours of gameplay.
What do they win, though? Other than the opportunity to walk around town going "look at my shinies!! Look at them!!" all the while knowing nothing about the game, except that they'll most likely die 20 times or so running normal FG1?
Not much win in that, imho
Edit: because spelling is hard w/o coffee
But they have absolutely the same power as anyone playing the game. Absolutely nothing differentiates them from that person who has spent 100s of hours in the game. They have reached the pinnacle of possibilities. All by doing nothing but paying some money.
So what? This doesn't impact me or my play in the least. I still don't se this as anything other than winning the chance to get booted from every group they join by being bad in good gear.NA PS42 -
dbgager✭✭✭Kuramas9tails wrote: »I only call it a Pay to Win if it gives an advantage over other players in which they can not achieve any other way than paying for it. So if ZOS added a new Skill tree that you can only access through buying, yes, that is pay to win. If crown crates added bonus sets that are better than in game sets, pay to win.
But with that last statement, are DLC sets that bind pay to win? Hmmmm.
But under your definition a brand new person could come into the game have a completelly maxed character with all the best armor and weapons and all skills without playing a minute of the actual game. You would not define that as a win. They just bypassed 100s of hours of gameplay.
What do they win, though? Other than the opportunity to walk around town going "look at my shinies!! Look at them!!" all the while knowing nothing about the game, except that they'll most likely die 20 times or so running normal FG1?
Not much win in that, imho
Edit: because spelling is hard w/o coffee
But they have absolutely the same power as anyone playing the game. Absolutely nothing differentiates them from that person who has spent 100s of hours in the game. They have reached the pinnacle of possibilities. All by doing nothing but paying some money.
So what? This doesn't impact me or my play in the least. I still don't se this as anything other than winning the chance to get booted from every group they join by being bad in good gear.
No guarantee of that Time does not necessarily make you good as well as lack of time does not make you bad. Anybody who has played lots of MMOs could pick up the gameplay of this game in an hour0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭at what point is it P2W?
when the crown store is selling armor or weapons that is Far better then what we can get ingame and makes me overpowered to the point that i kill everyone or make it so no one can kill me, and the purchase is only made by with real life money in the crown store.0 -
Zaketh✭✭✭Kuramas9tails wrote: »I only call it a Pay to Win if it gives an advantage over other players in which they can not achieve any other way than paying for it. So if ZOS added a new Skill tree that you can only access through buying, yes, that is pay to win. If crown crates added bonus sets that are better than in game sets, pay to win.
But with that last statement, are DLC sets that bind pay to win? Hmmmm.
But under your definition a brand new person could come into the game have a completelly maxed character with all the best armor and weapons and all skills without playing a minute of the actual game. You would not define that as a win. They just bypassed 100s of hours of gameplay.
What do they win, though? Other than the opportunity to walk around town going "look at my shinies!! Look at them!!" all the while knowing nothing about the game, except that they'll most likely die 20 times or so running normal FG1?
Not much win in that, imho
Edit: because spelling is hard w/o coffee
But they have absolutely the same power as anyone playing the game. Absolutely nothing differentiates them from that person who has spent 100s of hours in the game. They have reached the pinnacle of possibilities. All by doing nothing but paying some money.
So what? This doesn't impact me or my play in the least. I still don't se this as anything other than winning the chance to get booted from every group they join by being bad in good gear.
No guarantee of that Time does not necessarily make you good as well as lack of time does not make you bad. Anybody who has played lots of MMOs could pick up the gameplay of this game in an hour
I agree, IF they have played many MMOs, as you stated. I still don't see this a p2w, in my opinion.
I see it as buying something, only available to purchase with real life money, that gives an advantage in game. Again, my opinion.NA PS42 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭Dragneel1207 wrote: »its already p2W when sets like zaan ,earthengore are behind paywall which are OP and that is the 10th point u mentioned
While I personally find this annoying as I think these dungeons are overpriced so refuse to buy them, you still need to earn them by doing an ingame dungeon so I wouldn't call it pay to win really. Just like an expansion isn't really pay to win either even though it gives people who buy the expansion an advantage.
Pay to win would be being able to buy anything that gives a direct advantage over another player or speeds up achieving the character's potential power in such a way that it greatly outclasses the speed at which non-paying players could achieve the same. Buying gold would be pay to win as you can easily afford any legendary gear within minutes, while normal players would be working for months/years to afford fully legendary gear.
Buying XP scrolls is actually a form of pay to win, if they weren't so easily available to non-paying customers. My inventory is literally stuffed with them without ever paying a cent, so I find it acceptable.0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the fact you can already do a lot of what he mentions there already. People sell runs for trial/DSA gear all the time. All you need is a CC and willingness to sell crowns and you have as much gold as your purchase crowns can muster.
The best part? It wasn't even ZoS selling the gear. Its players themselves.Edited by karekiz on April 5, 2019 5:38PM0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭P2W is when a grind for an item is deliberately made long, tedious and unreachable in a sensible time but you can skip said grind with real cash. P2W is also when the devs deliberately don't rework certain features but sell band-aids on the shop. Two examples:
From the point of view of a crafter, the CBag is P2W since it fixes and skips the horrid inventory management system and it makes the sheer amount of crafting ingredients and items managable.
From the point of view of a motif farmer, the Welkynar motif on the store is P2W since the other option would take months, maybe longer to farm.
PS.:
Stop repeating the "when you can't get a certain item ingame" thing over and over again like a broken record. "P2W" is a broad term.Edited by Facefister on April 5, 2019 5:38PM2 -
Kombinator✭✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »I'm super confused on the OP, what are you winning this isn't an Esport ?
It's just a question. And as you can see there are many different answers. I win the satisfaction of my curiosity by reading other people's answers. I would only bothered, if people would greatly outperform, or start kicking me from group content, because i'm not willing to pay more.0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Kombinator wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »I'm super confused on the OP, what are you winning this isn't an Esport ?
It's just a question. And as you can see there are many different answers. I win the satisfaction of my curiosity by reading other people's answers. I would only bothered, if people would greatly outperform, or start kicking me from group content, because i'm not willing to pay more.
So you winning knowledge - thus posting p2w is giving you insight on how to not pay for a dlc or subscription. I'd imagine this is for both PvP and Pve - greatly outperforming is a balance issue that has to do with the game, not your class race or build.
And you say outperform - but didn't give an example of this. Maybe meaning your looking for something to debate about.
If you get kicked from group and your saying it's p2w - maybe your just not playing with the right people. Find a guild make some friends and L2P.0 -
Most_Awesome✭✭✭✭✭Nothing you listed is P2WIN
The only definition of pay to win is = In game mount speed is capped at 60%, but if mounts payed with crowns came with a 70% speed cap only then can you claim its P2W.
Its as simple as that.
If some one has spent 4 years grinding to level 50 and completed all quests and done everything, and then someone else spends 5 grand to have the same. Where is the advantage, there isn't one they are both in the exact same spot.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kombinator wrote: »At what point you think the game would become P2W?
1. Ability to buy gear directly in the Crown Store that is better than what is available in the game.
2. The requirement that unlocks be purchased from the Crown Store to progress. Said progression must make the character or player significantly better than those who have not purchased the unlock.
For the moment, this all excludes stuff delivered in Chapters and DLCs. This is normal expansion of the game.
However, the point where I would stop playing the game and move on to something better is broader than this list and includes many things that I do not consider to be P2W. This is mainly going to be ZOS removing too many time barriers.
Just a reminder for some, an FYI for others...Paul Sage wrote:Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel 'time-saving' items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power.
Also, while they hedged on the answer of gear by leaving the door open, I intend to hold them to it. I think that even lesser gear sold in the store provides an unfair advantage, besides that it is also a waste of money.Paul Sage wrote:We have no plans to sell weapon or armor sets in the crown store.Matt Firor wrote:We have no plans to sell armor or armor pieces in the Crown Store, just costumes that look like them.As someone who hates Pay2Win but loves The Elder Scrolls, will there be items in the Real Money store that empower your character ( armor, weapons etc.) ?Lee Ridout wrote:Convinience and Customization!
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Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Slunksters✭✭Dragneel1207 wrote: »its already p2W when sets like zaan ,earthengore are behind paywall which are OP and that is the 10th point u mentioned
How is that pay-to-win ? The sets are in DLC-s that if you don't have make no difference as you would not play any DLC content where these sets would be "better". If you dont have DLCs you would play base content so the "better" monster sets like Zaan or Earthgore would not impact your gameplay. Yes they would make you "stronger" than other players that dont have the DLC but it would not affect the game experience at all. Not having them makes no difference to the gameplay at all so it cannot be called P2W.
GJ you are both wrong, they can randomly be bought from the golden vendor, so technically, the dlc isn't needed to get those sets and them adding to the gameplay or not is irrelevant since the set can still be bought.Edited by Slunksters on April 6, 2019 1:31PM1 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Option to buy a power that directly increases your ability to be victorious in PvE and against other players.
Thats the only real way. Anything else is Pay 4 Convenience.CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!0 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Modern MMOs are adding this in, not as a "p2w" feature, but in an attempt to stop the third-party gold sellers & reduce hacking & stolen accounts.
No, that's not why "modern MMOs" have cash-to-gold exchange built in. It's because they want a slice of that pie. Third-party gold sellers are no longer viewed as external threat to the integrity of the game, but merely competition in cash-to-gold business.
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
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Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭2. I am really not a fan of the skyshard thing, but it's not as bad as getting to buy skill points right away. What ZOS plans is on the fence for me. At least I know when a lvl3 character has 300 skill points, they previously got 900 skyshards on an alt, so I guess it's fine.
3. Character boosts would be P2W to me, because I hate the thought of having put effort in my character when any spoiled rich kid can throw a bunch of dollars at ZO$ to overtake me without any effort.
To me pay to win starts when determination, effort and skill can't keep up with throwing money anymore. Buying the guild skill lines is alright if you restrict it to characters over lvl50 and having it completed on another character. I don't like the thought of dawnbreaker being available at lvl3 to people who pay enough. That would make getting Emperor become much easier to paying players in <lvl50 Cyrodiil.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ollowaiin2 wrote: »They paid real life money to get an advantage in the game. It is obtainable ingame, but would take a loong time to get a few Million gold. This system is unfair In my opinion, because it gives then a major advantage.
It would be easier, if you write why it has nothing to do with p2w.
Um. I had 3 million gold by the time I'd played 6 months. That's not long at all - especially compared to WoW where I didn't get my first million together until I'd played 18 months....0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Points 7 ,8 , 9 and 10 are possible through gifting. You can buy gold which can fund You carry runs where You'll be dragged like a bag of potatoes through the hardest content but You'll get the gear all gear at the end anyway.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Most_Awesome wrote: »If some one has spent 4 years grinding to level 50 and completed all quests and done everything, and then someone else spends 5 grand to have the same. Where is the advantage, there isn't one they are both in the exact same spot.
The adventage happens when You compare that dude who spend 5 grant to someone that played for example 2 years and have only half of everything achieved. In that situation person that spends the money is way ahead.
Edited by Juhasow on April 7, 2019 12:59AM0
