Just a crazy idea to address the ridiculously low dps problem in veteran group finder dungeons

idk · April 2019

Enemoriana wrote: »

1. If playing with random people cause so much pain, why not play with friends/guild? Player who do vet dungeons often, surely will have somebody. Those who do rarely? Less chances.
2. Pre-made groups also use group finder, and there can be low dps - with everybody knowing and accepting it.
3. Most important. If high dps player will have high priority... that will mean groups in most cases will have two high or two low dps. Or low even won't get into dungeon. So, low can't do dungeon at all, so they will just think it doesn't work. Will they improve their skill? No. They just won't go there. So there will be much less players who could improve their dps. That will mean you'll have less good players to do dungeons with... And with high/low there is good example: it can be done, but that guy was so much better!
And removing all low dps even isn't really needed. Group of three (sometimes two) good players can afford not good. That's why somebody can be carried.

Very solid points across the board. Especially the part that this could compound the problem further and drive away more tanks from GF since groups with low dps are more likely to have two very low DPS players in it.

LordTareq · April 2019

Since yesterday I agree with this idea! Was in veteran direfrost as the tank and the dps had such low damage that every group of mobs felt like a boss fight in duration, and they couldn’t outdamage the final boss’s healing. I had to switch to my more damage orientated pvp gear before we were able to put out enough damage...

siddique · April 2019

And tanks should be forced to taunt Balrog with an electrified floor for 1 minute.

profundidob16_ESO · April 2019

siddique wrote: »

And tanks should be forced to taunt Balrog with an electrified floor for 1 minute.

Funny that you mention it because that's indeed a good movement test since it requires a tank to block + dodgeroll + move asap out of small as well are huge 2-shot aoe's that keep alternating in a random pattern.

dtsharples · April 2019

I don't think asking 15k DPS from your healer, whilst also performing healing roles, and only 5k more from your actual DPS (who are geared + CP's for DPS and have actual rotations) sounds reasonable.....Though often my healer does drag the terribly poor DPS to the end kill.
Actual DPS should be doing 30k.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Then I want a similar test for tanks, and one for healers. I want it to test tanks know how to taunt and hold aggro, and have resistances enough to take more than 3 hits - - the healer test should factor the healer is able to provide resource aid, health proactively via ground hots (not just heal spam like bol or rapid regen) , and supplimentary dps of atleast 15k on a standard vet mob.

What would your dps test set as minimal for vet content? Bare in mind that 20k is average player.

I also want to vett all players randomly assigned to my group /s

Huyen · April 2019

Blizzard did the same thing in WoW once. Required silver difficulty as tank, healer or dps to do heroic dungeons. As a result the lfg was pretty much empty as the tests were harder then the actual dungeons. And it discourages people too.

mairwen85 · April 2019

@dtsharples when I'm healing 15k is the minimum effort dps I can supplement. Ele drain + shards + wall/barricade + light attack or heavy attacks, off set with heals and ultimates, chucking combat prayer and wearing spc + julianos/jorvulds. Honestly not hard to reach. Like I said, minimal effort - - case being a decent healer heals proactively and fills the gaps with dps or whatever may be lacking.

I didn't say 20k was sufficient or the baseline for said tests. I said it is indicative of the average player. When I consider my healer hits 15k easy and combat metrics reports that as 30% of group dps - - it concerns me... However:

mairwen85 wrote: »

Such a test could be a one off to set a player baseline and repeatable at request in order to raise that baseline when regeared/load out updated/configuration changed. Perhaps a modified dps dummy parse, or undaunted enclave training room could be used and submitted on completion rather than forcing a player at the point of queue. ZoS could bar players from using the vet queue for specific content until they successfully pass the required benchmark in their own time.

If queueing as premades, you could deactivate the requirement in activity finder.

This above actually promotes improvement by progression. The only thing about it is, it's a forced constraint and potentially unfair to the wider player base. It creates and nurtures a culture of spite and envy, and better-than-ism...

Also note in my original comment '/s' == sarcasm.

profundidob16_ESO · April 2019

idk wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

1. If playing with random people cause so much pain, why not play with friends/guild? Player who do vet dungeons often, surely will have somebody. Those who do rarely? Less chances.
2. Pre-made groups also use group finder, and there can be low dps - with everybody knowing and accepting it.
3. Most important. If high dps player will have high priority... that will mean groups in most cases will have two high or two low dps. Or low even won't get into dungeon. So, low can't do dungeon at all, so they will just think it doesn't work. Will they improve their skill? No. They just won't go there. So there will be much less players who could improve their dps. That will mean you'll have less good players to do dungeons with... And with high/low there is good example: it can be done, but that guy was so much better!
And removing all low dps even isn't really needed. Group of three (sometimes two) good players can afford not good. That's why somebody can be carried.

Very solid points across the board. Especially the part that this could compound the problem further and drive away more tanks from GF since groups with low dps are more likely to have two very low DPS players in it.

No, they are not solid points at all but wrong:

1. This thread is specifically about low dps in random group finder groups. Telling people to go make premade groups, go play another game or destroy their computer with a sledgehammer is completely beside the point and thus out-of-scope. For the record I have completed all vet trials and HM in all vet dlc. So yes I'm used to playing with my guildies and everything becomes a breeze.

Playing with other people opens a nice and random factor and is a complete different experience that I like to play as well. In addition I have -since long- made a sport out of first playing new DLC dungeons on PTS from day 1, inventing tactics for them and then write guides and info here for other players before it even hits live.

On live I like carrying random finder groups through them by explaining all tactics to the new players and compensating as good as is possible but the truth is if a healer doesn't have healing skills on his bar or if a dps is unable to produce basic dps there is nothing one can do to carry them through the dungeon since they don't even meet the basic requirements. A healer is easily fixed in most cases but dps...no

2. Premade groups also use group finder indeed and there can be lower dps indeed. I don't see any problem with carrying that person as long as that dps DOES meet the minimum dps requirements for vet dungeons to fit into the group.

3. Indeed, 'skill level tiers' would come into existence where players of equal level are grouping up. To high level tiers vet dlc will be a joke, mid level tierse it will be just fine and to low tiers that are barely qualifying it will be challenging. But the amount of "carrying dead weight" will be 10 times less and the amount of "we can't do this because of 1 person" as well. If a complete group of newbie players that somehow barely qualified for vet still tries it and finds it too hard they may come to the conclusion that they aren't ready for this level of play at all and are better off growing a bit first in normal dungeons. Such a system of tiers where you can work yourself up into higher tiers (in the random group matching system) of player skill level already exists succesfully in many other games (Starcraft II comes to mind). ESO simply still has that hurdle to take for some reason.

stevenyaub16_ESO · April 2019

Theres no need for this

If their DPS is too low and they can't clear content they will stop queuing for it. Since it's such a long wait time for DD and then to spend time just to fail would dissuade them to go normal or seek to improve. There's alot of bad players though, but they paid to play this game too so what ya going to do?

zaria · April 2019

Huyen wrote: »

Blizzard did the same thing in WoW once. Required silver difficulty as tank, healer or dps to do heroic dungeons. As a result the lfg was pretty much empty as the tests were harder then the actual dungeons. And it discourages people too.

Making the test harder than needed to complete dungeon is just idiotic.
And the demands some claim here for 30K dps is pretty much in that league.

The purpose of this test is to make sure that players is competent enough to complete if all was on his level.
Weeding out fake tanks an LA spammers.

Androconium · April 2019

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

ok this will for sure set some fire but here goes a crazy idea for a possible future patch note:

-queuing as dps for any VETERAN dungeon no longer queues you straight away but instead now teleports you to a small room with only a test dummy and a start button. After pressing the button a 3 sec countdown timer starts after which you have to unleash your maximum dmge on the test dummy during 1 minute and kill it before those 60 seconds expire . The higher your dps the higher you end up on the queuing priority list and if you fail to meet the minimum dps check threshold by not being able to kill the dummy in that 1 minute timeframe it explodes, killing you in the process as well as teleporting you back outside. =P

that should solve all the issues with low dps in vet dungeons

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Alternately, we could just ban for one month those players that have completed it once, successfully.
They could use that time to farm thier own mats and process their own pots instead of constantly whingeing about "market prices too high" blahblahblah-y'all-do-go-on.

etc.

dtsharples · April 2019

Wasn't aimed directly at you mairwen85, just response to the idea

And I agree. I heal often and sometimes my DPS numbers shock me, when a lot of people struggle to hit that 20k.
It makes me wonder what they are doing (or aren't doing) to struggle so much.
Often the worst thing to do in a group is to try and help with suggestions, people get immediately defensive and obnoxious - it really is hit and miss in a PUG.

The 300cp minimum that locks players out of DLC content was a move in the right direction - but that presumes that everyone at cp300 knows what they are doing...and that is far from the case.
I would welcome a method to test capability, so long as it was somewhat lenient and didn't expect unreal numbers from people.

Nyladreas · April 2019

I lost all hope for humanity after reading the comments in this topic.

People are way too serious even for april fools...

Ffs...

Kombinator · April 2019

Huyen wrote: »

Blizzard did the same thing in WoW once. Required silver difficulty as tank, healer or dps to do heroic dungeons. As a result the lfg was pretty much empty as the tests were harder then the actual dungeons. And it discourages people too.

The idea is still good. They just went too far on difficulty.

mairwen85 · April 2019

dtsharples wrote: »

Wasn't aimed directly at you mairwen85, just response to the idea

And I agree. I heal often and sometimes my DPS numbers shock me, when a lot of people struggle to hit that 20k.
It makes me wonder what they are doing (or aren't doing) to struggle so much.
Often the worst thing to do in a group is to try and help with suggestions, people get immediately defensive and obnoxious - it really is hit and miss in a PUG.

The 300cp minimum that locks players out of DLC content was a move in the right direction - but that presumes that everyone at cp300 knows what they are doing...and that is far from the case.
I would welcome a method to test capability, so long as it was somewhat lenient and didn't expect unreal numbers from people.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you for restating it more eloquently

Mr_Potato · April 2019

The moment dps becomes the sole measurement of a players worth, is the moment players begin to walk away from the game. I’m not asking you to believe me, just do some research on prior online games and what drove players away. You are only hurting yourself by reducing the player base to match your play style. I believe WoW is a prime example of a game turning into an Elitist Only, all others kicked philosophy.

dbgager · April 2019

Terrible idea. Introduces Elitism and get gud into the game. I absolutly hate people who kick others out of groups because they think they don't do enough damage or because they don't play the way they do. As soon as you reduce the game to that I'm out of here.

Deter1UK · April 2019

idk wrote: »

Finally, we are not talking about testing the best dps on the server. They generally know better than to use the GF and can easily get into a group from one of their raid guilds so it seems odd to do a dps test on those who for whatever reason cannot get into a group without GF.

.

OHHH! You meant Group Finder! I thought for a minute there you meant Girl Friend.

I think my wife would object if I told her I had to get a girlfriend to play a computer game even after 30 years of marriage!

Dojohoda · April 2019

W2B exploding dummy for house

Wandering_Immigrant · April 2019

Kikke wrote: »

my suggestion: Any player can que for any normal. but for vet you'll need to have completed ESO testing ground ONCE to join vets. these testing grounds should be dmg, healing, mechanics and all. You get trown into an NPC party as one of the roles you've selected. and you're supposed to do your role. manage this and vet queues are open. fail and go back to normal.

I like this idea. Actually, whenever I see threads about Hammerfell Arena and the different possible uses for it my thought always goes to using it for something like this. I've never considered it as a gating mechanism for dungeons but I'd cool with that. They could even add a similar arena to the other two alliance zones making it easier for players to stumble upon.

Before coming to ESO I was playing Final Fantasy XIV and they have something like this called the hall of the novice, where you go through 10 tiers of increasing difficulty each introducing additional mechanics and party concepts specific to your role. It wasn't implemented until after I'd been playing long enough to not need it, but I ran through it anyway just to see what they were teaching people and it seemed pretty useful. I think every MMO should have something like that as this seems to be an issue no matter where you go.

Bealeb319 · April 2019

I don't think that is fair. Alot of people que as dps because they are not good and don't want to be a detriment to the group playing another role. The one thing I will say is that the minimum to que should be cp160 at least that way the players can actually wear top lvl gear

profundidob16_ESO · April 2019

by the way. The past weekend I completed daily random dungeon on many of my NA chars again and I quickly was forced to queue normal instead of vet since in vet I encountered only impossible group scenario's. Even on normal I was astonished to see just how bad things are nowadays and how much worse since the most recent large influx of new players.

Out of the top of my head I remember for instance that as healer on normal I apparently did 60% of group dps on the first 2 bosses of Wayrest II by just hitting solar barrage, luminous shards and elemental lightning blockade whenever possible. I say whenever possible because as strange as it sounds this group actually needed constant healing with healthbars going below 30% every 2sec. Not avoiding or blocking any heavy attacks from an untaunted boss (yes, fake tanks nonstop) and adds, standing in red aoe as if it's non existent, etc...

So I basically soloed that dungeon again with a mix of tanking, healing and dps, carrying once more players. Note that I didn't mind in this particular case. When I told one of the dps politely: "Sorry to say my friend but you really have to fix your build. With 32K health as dps you can never be effective at doing dps. Many other players will simply kick you without explaining why." he responded surprisingly with "What do you suggest ?" So we quickly discovered and fixed elementary things such as the fact that he was using the wrong food (buffing wrong stats) etc.

The point of me saying this is not that I didn't want to run in a group like that at all. On the contrary, since it was normal I was able to carry, still complete and teach the new players. But on vet these people really should not be allowed to enter for their own good. On vet this would have been a no-go for sure.

ccfeeling · April 2019

Cheese the parser ? No healing ability / Shield and Lover mundus ?

It wouldn't help at all

In DLC HM , there are many things to do beside DPS , such as SCP

Uviryth · April 2019

So you want to have a check which player can exploit a faulty combatsystem the best?
What if I refuse to Animation Cancel because I think its a CHEAT.
Will the Testchamber take that into consideration?

Inhuman003 · April 2019

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

ok this will for sure set some fire but here goes a crazy idea for a possible future patch note:

-queuing as dps for any VETERAN dungeon no longer queues you straight away but instead now teleports you to a small room with only a test dummy and a start button. After pressing the button a 3 sec countdown timer starts after which you have to unleash your maximum dmge on the test dummy during 1 minute and kill it before those 60 seconds expire . The higher your dps the higher you end up on the queuing priority list and if you fail to meet the minimum dps check threshold by not being able to kill the dummy in that 1 minute timeframe it explodes, killing you in the process as well as teleporting you back outside. =P

that should solve all the issues with low dps in vet dungeons

@ZOS_GinaBruno

You made a point even I a veteran need to be put in my place on DPS low to high damage for a queue in the group finder.

profundidob16_ESO · April 2019

Uviryth wrote: »

So you want to have a check which player can exploit a faulty combatsystem the best?
What if I refuse to Animation Cancel because I think its a CHEAT.
Will the Testchamber take that into consideration?

So you wish to challenge the dev's by stating your own personal opinion that their combat system is faulty and a cheat ? Go ahead and take it up with the devs then. Wrong thread tbh.

The testchamber would take into consideration whatever the current mechanics of the game are (as per the devs decision), not the mechanics which you would personally like to see rather than the actual ones.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · April 2019

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

that should solve all the issues with low dps in vet dungeons

What would solve the issue to boot, is influential players like @Alcast put HUGE letter disclaimers on their gear section, that sets like Relequen and Berseking Warrior do not work except in controlled environment (dummy) and in groups where everyone knows how to play over communication and buff each other. Also they should strongly point that those sets are not for the average player, and wont make you be better. On the contrary those sets will actually make you perform worse than using something different but easier to use like Briarheart with Veiled Heritance/Hunding Rage/Automaton etc.

I can point you 80% of the Stamina DPS community doesn't have a clue how Relequen works, and of that amount of people the majority are bow/bow users spamming spray and snipe.

xxthir13enxx · April 2019

Do you even lift, bro!?

Kuramas9tails · April 2019

Wait, I thought this was an April Fools joke.

Either its been taken too serious or I misread the OPs intention.

Dubsize · April 2019

So in my opinion u should calm down and respect that people dont play meta builds they copied from the web.

And yeah if i make low dps but have a self made build that makes fun playing i dont give a ratshit about how fast u could rush a dungeon or not. Take time life is to fast dont let this touch gaming any longer. And in my opinion a vet should not be garanted succes it should be hard not the next step to faceroll over the mobs.