ProbablePaul wrote: »

If you guys are stuck with this reasoning, you might even be better off asking them to switch the passives between khajiit and bosmer, considering that felines have better night vision, therefore making them better at spotting things in the dark, or the shadows.

That's always been an option, especially given how in prior Elder Scrolls games the Khajiit had powers like Night Eye. Then again, they should probably also have our reduced fall damage.

However, the reason I haven't pushed for that change is that I don't want my fun to come at the expense of the Khajiit players. If we take their stealth, then they'll have the exact same complaints as us.

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Could someone enlighten me as to why this change has infuriated so many people? I'm doubtful this many people are so up in arms about the lore.

I'm really interested in how this has specifically impacted your gameplay. If someone could address that I'd be interested in reading the response.

No, it's the lore.

I came here for the Elder Scrolls part, not the Online part. And in Elder Scrolls Bosmer are defined by three things: archery, stealth, pact. The third bit has never been fully implemented in any game, and with the most recent changes the other two have been stripped away. There are no Bosmer now. At all. Just Bosmer-shaped... I dunno what. Things. Imga, I think.

As for my gameplay, I would go through dungeons and delves stealthed just to get to the bosses and avoid the mooks. It wasn't that the mooks were hard, just a waste of time. I gave up a set to wear NME and got most of what I lost back, but I still notice the difference going through towns or overland.

I responded to your post a while back about how your appeal to the lore being the authority on the authenticity and value of these racial passive changes, and emphasized how it was contradictory because you are cherry picking the lore and using the information that serves your interests then discarding the rest; you're using logic when it suits you, and neglecting it when it doesn't.

You say there are no true bosmer... So, you would say that the bosmer prior to the change were true bosmers, even though they couldn't charm simple minded animals, which is as relevant to bosmer lore as is their stealth proficiency. Meaning that you only support one kind of 'true bosmer'. This point alone illustrates that your concern is with stealth passives, and not with bosmer lore. In which case, the relevant argument here is to encourage you to play as a khajiit where you can regain your lost passive. If I'm missing something, please tell me.

I doubt that anyone cares, but my point for continuously bringing this up is that it's annoying to see these posts, and the references to the lore in these topics, repeatedly... when it's not really the issue at hand. People for the old bosmer passive merely want the old passive, that's it - also, maybe they don't play khajiit because they don't want a tail.

If you guys are stuck with this reasoning, you might even be better off asking them to switch the passives between khajiit and bosmer, considering that felines have better night vision, therefore making them better at spotting things in the dark, or the shadows.

You asserted something nonsensical, and I gave it the full attention that it deserved, which is none. Where, in lore, is it EVER said that Bosmer were great at rolling around? Sure, they had agility stat boosts (like other races), sure they were agile (like other races), but where ONCE is it said that they are good at that? The lore specifically states that Bosmer are stealthy, and this dates back to Daggerfall (PGE1, in two separate volumes). Where does it once say that they are good at spotting things? Never is when. Sure, they are said to be good scouts. Guess what, scouts have sneak/stealth as a class skill. Not spotting things. Spotting things has never been a thing. You want to say Bosmer are great hunters? Guess what, there's never been a playable 'hunter' class. Ever. NPC hunters are friendly bandit archers. Archers have always had sneak/stealth as a class skill. Not spotting things.

I'm not ignoring any lore. The charm simple animals thing never appears in any book, it was a gameplay element only. And, yeah, I mentioned it a couple of times, actually, so no I haven't ignored it. It was just lame, and I haven't missed it. To compare stealth, which is repeatedly mentioned in the in-game lore books as being something Bosmer are good at, to the 'command animal' thing is disingenuous at best. When, outside of the game manuals, is that ever mentioned? Not as often as their command of archery and not as often as their exceptional stealth in any case.

As for Bosmer before the last update: they had the best bonus to bows. No race had a weapon damage bonus to bows, no race had an ability discount for bows. The best advantage for a bow user was to have the experience buff that Bosmer got. Now Orcs, Dunmer, Reguards, and Imperials are better with bows than Bosmer. Wood Elves had a bonus to stealth, shared with the Khajiit. I didn't mind that, it was fine with the lore because the Khajiit have also always been a sneaky race. Bosmer had disease and poison resistance. I was fine with that, though (as with Skyrim) I thought it should only be for disease. But there wasn't anything there that broke lore. As I mention above, the command animal thing isn't in any book, so I never missed it, and it really wasn't a big deal from the lore perspective. So, yeah, the previous iteration was completely in-line with what Bosmer are supposed to be.

Bosmer have always and I do mean ALWAYS been thieves. From Arena on. And what this update did was it turned Bosmer into guards (edit to add) who are at best the 5th best archers in Tamriel. So, yes, absolutely, it completely mangles the lore for the Bosmer race.

max_only wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Could someone enlighten me as to why this change has infuriated so many people? I'm doubtful this many people are so up in arms about the lore.

I'm really interested in how this has specifically impacted your gameplay. If someone could address that I'd be interested in reading the response.

You’ve seen the main thread do you really want us to type it out all over again?

It’s fine if all MMOs are a shallow wow clone to you and you skip past all the text, just know that The Elder Scrolls is an IP with dedicated fans, more so than any flash in the pan game built with no regard to world building. Hey, I like shallow MMOs too, played my time in Flyff and Sword2. This isn’t that.

If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for 25 years.

Archery, stealth, Green Pact. That’s it for Bosmer. We aren’t the best archers in the game. We aren’t the best stealthers in the game. We don’t have any Green Pact representation in our racial passives. What does that leave?

As for gameplay, why does anyone choose a Breton to be a magicka dps? Possibly because they wish to SPECIALIZE in a certain aspect. Of all the specialized stam races, why did we choose Bosmer 5 years ago and not Khajiit, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, etc? Think really hard about it. To SPECIALIZE in a certain game play aspect. When it comes to specialized stealth, there were two options. Now there is one. Cosmetic and/or stealth are the only answers. And Bosmer aren’t known for winning beauty pageants (though they should, my Bosmer are gorgeous lol)

As most people, I chose my Bosmer for the Bis Cuteness passive plus their passives looked good for a stam nightblade. This is my first mmo and I realize Zos isn't the greatest developer of all time but I guess the difference between you and me is I don't take the game more seriously than the developers do.

Also, my original question was "How has this impacted your gameplay?" This remains unanswered.

Blinkin8r wrote: »

As most people, I chose my Bosmer for the Bis Cuteness passive plus their passives looked good for a stam nightblade. This is my first mmo and I realize Zos isn't the greatest developer of all time but I guess the difference between you and me is I don't take the game more seriously than the developers do.

Also, my original question was "How has this impacted your gameplay?" This remains unanswered.

As a stam nightblade myself, if I hadn't played a Bosmer for 12+ years, I would have already changed to Redguard or Orc because their passives make for better nightblades. I don't PvP much, so I haven't even bothered to put points into Hunter's Eye because it's a PvP only talent.

As to how many gameplay has been affected. Well, I used to spend a lot of time pickpocketing and burglaring because our bonus stealth made it both easier and more fun. It's why I've played Bosmer since Oblivion.

Now trying to do justice gameplay is much more frustrating. I can still do all the same things for the most part, but now it takes longer, I get caught more, and it's just overall less fun. Bosmer are, and always have been, a race of thieves who could "disappear into the shade of a single leaf".

That playstyle has been removed from the game unless you switch to Khajiit.

Blinkin8r wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Could someone enlighten me as to why this change has infuriated so many people? I'm doubtful this many people are so up in arms about the lore.

I'm really interested in how this has specifically impacted your gameplay. If someone could address that I'd be interested in reading the response.

You’ve seen the main thread do you really want us to type it out all over again?

It’s fine if all MMOs are a shallow wow clone to you and you skip past all the text, just know that The Elder Scrolls is an IP with dedicated fans, more so than any flash in the pan game built with no regard to world building. Hey, I like shallow MMOs too, played my time in Flyff and Sword2. This isn’t that.

If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for 25 years.

Archery, stealth, Green Pact. That’s it for Bosmer. We aren’t the best archers in the game. We aren’t the best stealthers in the game. We don’t have any Green Pact representation in our racial passives. What does that leave?

As for gameplay, why does anyone choose a Breton to be a magicka dps? Possibly because they wish to SPECIALIZE in a certain aspect. Of all the specialized stam races, why did we choose Bosmer 5 years ago and not Khajiit, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, etc? Think really hard about it. To SPECIALIZE in a certain game play aspect. When it comes to specialized stealth, there were two options. Now there is one. Cosmetic and/or stealth are the only answers. And Bosmer aren’t known for winning beauty pageants (though they should, my Bosmer are gorgeous lol)

As most people, I chose my Bosmer for the Bis Cuteness passive plus their passives looked good for a stam nightblade. This is my first mmo and I realize Zos isn't the greatest developer of all time but I guess the difference between you and me is I don't take the game more seriously than the developers do.

Also, my original question was "How has this impacted your gameplay?" This remains unanswered.

Even though I have had the gear to just destroy everything I find in my path, I always used stealth to attack npcs ambush style and to just explore.

However, I now just wreck everything I meet, not caring about stealth at all. I did the Elswyr quest on my bosmer and I just blew through the mobs just to get to the next story beats.

However on my stealthy Kahjit I played it the old way, and even though his gear is "good" (He has my bosmers 'hand-me downs') I had a lot more fun sneaking up npcs and ambushing them, or sniping them from stealth. I enjoyed my second run through much more than my first because it involved the gameplay that I enjoyed.

I suppose I could have done it the stealthy way on my bosmer, but now, knowing she is as flat footed as my nord tank, I have taken a "why bother" approach to much of my game play with her.

I love stealth gameplay, I like being that unseen enemy that takes down a guard quickly and moves on. Now that it's gone and bosmers have just turned into a generic dps race, I just go through places like a wrecking ball.

And come to think of it I hardly use my bow on her anymore, just caltrops and then burn each mob fast. I can just play her with two skills now, because well, why bother? She looks like a bosmer, but she plays just blandly. Effective because gear, but bland.

That stealth skill line cannot come fast enough in my opinion, playing bosmers are just boring now.

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Could someone enlighten me as to why this change has infuriated so many people? I'm doubtful this many people are so up in arms about the lore.

I'm really interested in how this has specifically impacted your gameplay. If someone could address that I'd be interested in reading the response.

No, it's the lore.

I came here for the Elder Scrolls part, not the Online part. And in Elder Scrolls Bosmer are defined by three things: archery, stealth, pact. The third bit has never been fully implemented in any game, and with the most recent changes the other two have been stripped away. There are no Bosmer now. At all. Just Bosmer-shaped... I dunno what. Things. Imga, I think.

As for my gameplay, I would go through dungeons and delves stealthed just to get to the bosses and avoid the mooks. It wasn't that the mooks were hard, just a waste of time. I gave up a set to wear NME and got most of what I lost back, but I still notice the difference going through towns or overland.

I responded to your post a while back about how your appeal to the lore being the authority on the authenticity and value of these racial passive changes, and emphasized how it was contradictory because you are cherry picking the lore and using the information that serves your interests then discarding the rest; you're using logic when it suits you, and neglecting it when it doesn't.

You say there are no true bosmer... So, you would say that the bosmer prior to the change were true bosmers, even though they couldn't charm simple minded animals, which is as relevant to bosmer lore as is their stealth proficiency. Meaning that you only support one kind of 'true bosmer'. This point alone illustrates that your concern is with stealth passives, and not with bosmer lore. In which case, the relevant argument here is to encourage you to play as a khajiit where you can regain your lost passive. If I'm missing something, please tell me.

I doubt that anyone cares, but my point for continuously bringing this up is that it's annoying to see these posts, and the references to the lore in these topics, repeatedly... when it's not really the issue at hand. People for the old bosmer passive merely want the old passive, that's it - also, maybe they don't play khajiit because they don't want a tail.

If you guys are stuck with this reasoning, you might even be better off asking them to switch the passives between khajiit and bosmer, considering that felines have better night vision, therefore making them better at spotting things in the dark, or the shadows.

Charming animals was an active racial power, not a passive. Imperials can't charm people in ESO either, Nords can't fear others with shouts, etc. If the devs ever give each race their unique active skill again, I'd be all for charming animals to make a comeback. Even so, saying that charming animals is equally important to Bosmer lore as their stealth proficiency is a big claim. May I ask what lore you're basing that on?

The Guardian constellations are a huge part of Elder Scrolls lore, yes? Warrior. Mage. Thief. Suddenly, the Thief is missing from Bosmer (We need to call in the Star-Gazers from Craglorn again...) and instead of hiding in the Shadow, they're pulling others out of it. That's as lore breaking as it would be to take Redguards' martial training away and replace it with a magical bonus to summoning daedra. Sure, Redguards are the greatest swordsman warriors in all of Tamriel, and they are deeply suspicious of magic, but maybe...hear me out...they've become so concerned about magic abuse that they've actually somehow developed a proficiency for it? Bosmer have always been thieves. It's a big part of their cultural identity and their gameplay identity. Losing the stealth passive has made them noticeably less effective in Justice gameplay.

So, yes, it is the lore. It's the lore and it's the gameplay. And, it's a bit presumptuous of you to tell other people that they don't really care about the thing that they're actively telling you they care about.

I would rather have the stealth bonus back. But I after a little messing around with different food, adjusting CP and trying some different combos of traits and set pieces I feel like my woodelf is hitting harder than before in PVP.

I don't even play a Bosmer and i'm annoyed they took the stealth away.

I voted to keep it the way it is because frankly, that's exactly what is going to happen and I am just, "adjusting fire" to make do with it.

anadandy wrote: »

I have still not heard a single compelling argument that removing the stealth radius bonus from only Bosmer balanced anything, nor that returning said bonus would unbalance anything in the competitive elements of the game. In fact, a lot of arguments I see are that "stealth is useless" "stealth is for RP" "Stealth isn't competitive gameplay"

So...why was it necessary to remove it for "balance"?

Stealth removal wasn't balance, it was because they felt Bosmer and Kjajiit sharing a passive felt too "samey" despite nobody complaining about it. So they took stealth from the stealth race (Bosmer) and gave them the acrobatic passive that the acrobatic race (Khajiit) should have had (from a logic perspective, from a fun perspective no one should have saddled with the terribleness of Hunter's Eye).

The balance portion was removing the 10% damage buff from stealth attacks from Khajiit (and would have been Bosmer had they kept stealth).

Their other rationale was that stealth wasn't useful in every situation because many monsters couldn't be stealthed by. So naturally the solution was to give Bosmer a trait was useful never instead of just sometimes.