Can we not make another thread about this please. The change sucks, but lets just deal with it.

Would it be a direct trade of stealth detection for stealth?

I would rather have stealth than detection, but I'm not sure that is all we would have to trade.

I actually like all the other passives.

Alucardo wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Why do I feel like the people voting keep the detection bonus don't play Bosmer?

I race changed to Bosmer not too long ago from Orc because I was sick and tired of stamblades cloaking. With the stealth detection bonus + evil hunter I have more of a chance at fighting them. Also the max stam, movement speed, penetration and recovery is super nice too.

The speed is pretty negligible, but if you like it you like it. The pen bonus is garbage though. A single piece of white protective jewelry gives more resistance than Hunter's Eye gives pen. And since you'll need a specialized build to fully take advantage of the roll-dodging, it means you're wasting a lot of skills/sets to be nullified by one necklace.

What's worse of the stealth detection is that it's a double whammy against Bosmer. We lost 3m of stealth radius reduction and on top of that, the detection bonus lets others know you're sneaking nearby because their hidden eye indicator starts opening from farther out.

So technically, other races know a stealthed Bosmer is nearby before the Bosmers with stealth detection know.

It's not my emotions. Bosmer have always defined (in lore and somewhat in games) by three things, their skill at archery, their mastery of hiding, and the Green Pact.

Now, they have no bonus to archery aside from a near meaningless XP buff. The green pact, while described in game, is pretty much impossible to enforce in game because it would cut out a bunch of combat (and that's fine). And they are now arguably the worst race at stealth (at least in PvP).

"Git gud" is not a response to something a change that basically removed my character's playstyle and identity from the game. It's a base dismissal that ZOS made a lore breaking change (to not just Bosmer) that is also a poor change mechanically speaking.

It sounds like you play a Bosmer because you want a race with high stamina recovery, not because you wanted to play a Bosmer. If that's the case, you should probably swap to Redguard as they have an overall higher recovery. In fact, Bosmer are pretty much the lowest ranked stam dps right now.

Alucardo wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

It's not my emotions. Bosmer have always defined (in lore and somewhat in games) by three things, their skill at archery, their mastery of hiding, and the Green Pact.

Now, they have no bonus to archery aside from a near meaningless XP buff. The green pact, while described in game, is pretty much impossible to enforce in game because it would cut out a bunch of combat (and that's fine). And they are now arguably the worst race at stealth (at least in PvP).

As I said, ESO is a MMO before anything else. They can't always do things lore-perfect. And while it looks like they have no archery bonus, their dodge roll passive actually synergises perfectly with the bow as you get major expedition when dodge rolling with it. This is another reason I went Bosmer.

I will cut someone if they take my dodge-roll speed. Dodge into water=6 seconds of faster swim speed. I'd almost rather have this than the stealth, it's so dang nice.

Alucardo wrote: »

As I said, ESO is a MMO before anything else. They can't always do things lore-perfect. And while it looks like they have no archery bonus, their dodge roll passive actually synergises perfectly with the bow as you get major expedition when dodge rolling with it. This is another reason I went Bosmer.

They had it as lore-perfect as the game allows. The 3m stealth radius reduction. There was no reason to remove it. Yes, Khajiit had the same bonus, but Orc, Bosmer, and Redguard all get max stamina. Multiple races get resistances, etc.

And from both a lore and mechanics standpoint, Bomser should be the stealthy ones while Khajiit are the agile (dodge-roll) ones.

This all boils down to many people don't care about stealth/justice gameplay so the change as "who cares". When in reality there are two big reasons everyone should care.

Mechanically: The Bosmer (as well as the Altmer's spell recharge) are almost entirely PvP only talents. In PvE you're likely already at or near the pen caps so getting an extra 1500 is either meaningless or such a tiny buff as to be meaningless. In a perfect scenario, where you have 0 pen and the target has max (but not more) resistance, it's an effective 4.5% damage buff (you go from doing 50% damage to 52.5%). However that number drops as both your base pen and their resistance drops. And if their resistance is even the tiniest bit over the cap, well you'll be getting nothing from Hunter's Eye there either.

In PvE, even if you got a decent boost from the pen, it's a massive DPS loss to roll dodge because you'll get dodge roll cheap enough to make up for the stamina cost. Even an 80% cost reduction costs more stamina per 6 seconds than the Bosmer bonus recovery gives. So you'd get more damage doing a single buffed class/weapon ability than from 30+ seconds of Hunter's Eye being up.

Not to mention that in PvE you don't need to roll dodge anywhere near as often. So uptime is going to be terrible. (This is why the Altmer passive is also PvP, you just don't need to block/dodge that much in PvE to make it useful)

So what you have is two races getting a passive that's only useful in PvP while the other 8 get universally applicable passives. That's poor game design and everyone should worry about things like that. From a min/max perspective, Bosmer are already the lowest parsing stamina race, the last thing they need is to hammered by talents that don't work for most players.

From a Lore perspective, if lore doesn't matter, then why are you playing ESO and not a different MMO? If everyone doesn't voice their complaint about Bosmers losing their defining characteristic (after all, their national epic is a book named "The Thousand Benefits of Hiding"), then you have no room to speak up when they make similar lore breaking changes to your favorite playstyle.

Sorry Nord tanks, your physical resistance passive has been replaced with 25% faster resurrection time to account for their closeness with Sovngarde.

Redguard? Well, instead of cheaper weapon costs that represent your race's martial background, you have 25% faster mount time and 50% more mount stamina as your race is also known for their horsemanship.

Bretons? Years of magical training with Alteration has removed your cheaper spells, but hardened your shields, so you stop an extra 50% damage when blocking with a shield.

It might be an MMO, but it's also part of a game franchise with 25 years of lore behind it. Lore is important enough that they give their Loremaster veto power over developer changes. It just so happens that these racial rebalance changes came when they were between loremasters.

Could someone enlighten me as to why this change has infuriated so many people? I'm doubtful this many people are so up in arms about the lore.

I'm really interested in how this has specifically impacted your gameplay. If someone could address that I'd be interested in reading the response.

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Could someone enlighten me as to why this change has infuriated so many people? I'm doubtful this many people are so up in arms about the lore.

I'm really interested in how this has specifically impacted your gameplay. If someone could address that I'd be interested in reading the response.

You’ve seen the main thread do you really want us to type it out all over again?

It’s fine if all MMOs are a shallow wow clone to you and you skip past all the text, just know that The Elder Scrolls is an IP with dedicated fans, more so than any flash in the pan game built with no regard to world building. Hey, I like shallow MMOs too, played my time in Flyff and Sword2. This isn’t that.

If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for 25 years.

Archery, stealth, Green Pact. That’s it for Bosmer. We aren’t the best archers in the game. We aren’t the best stealthers in the game. We don’t have any Green Pact representation in our racial passives. What does that leave?

As for gameplay, why does anyone choose a Breton to be a magicka dps? Possibly because they wish to SPECIALIZE in a certain aspect. Of all the specialized stam races, why did we choose Bosmer 5 years ago and not Khajiit, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, etc? Think really hard about it. To SPECIALIZE in a certain game play aspect. When it comes to specialized stealth, there were two options. Now there is one. Cosmetic and/or stealth are the only answers. And Bosmer aren’t known for winning beauty pageants (though they should, my Bosmer are gorgeous lol)

darkblue5 wrote: »

Bosmers were never able to be hands down better than any other characters that focused on the stealth skill. They merely had a tiny head start. What 15 skill points ahead? Not that much tbh. Khajiit with Night Eye were always better purest stealth chars if only by the fact they had freer build decisions with that built in.

Now Bosmer don't have a head start on stealth and have a vastly more powerful passive that will probably have to be nerfed. Till then, and until a bigger stealth/cloak rework, I'll take that passive and I'll take the cheap and cheesy kills it offers. Yes it goes through Shadowy Disguise as it is ~1/7th of a Detect Pot.

I'd love to know this powerful passive, because Hunter's Eye is incredibly weak. And if you're a predominately PvE player like most players are, it's 100% worthless. Why should only Bosmer and Altmer have PvP only passives while everyone else gets a universally applicable one?

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Could someone enlighten me as to why this change has infuriated so many people? I'm doubtful this many people are so up in arms about the lore.

I'm really interested in how this has specifically impacted your gameplay. If someone could address that I'd be interested in reading the response.

No, it's the lore.

I came here for the Elder Scrolls part, not the Online part. And in Elder Scrolls Bosmer are defined by three things: archery, stealth, pact. The third bit has never been fully implemented in any game, and with the most recent changes the other two have been stripped away. There are no Bosmer now. At all. Just Bosmer-shaped... I dunno what. Things. Imga, I think.

As for my gameplay, I would go through dungeons and delves stealthed just to get to the bosses and avoid the mooks. It wasn't that the mooks were hard, just a waste of time. I gave up a set to wear NME and got most of what I lost back, but I still notice the difference going through towns or overland.

ProbablePaul wrote: »

"Surely anyone who disagrees with us is No True Scotsman Bosmer".

Why would anyone go out of their way to stop the bosmer racial passive from being changed, if they didn't play bosmer? What interest does it serve?

I'm one of those that argues not to change the passive, and I've played Bosmer since launch on console; I have multiple Bosmer characters.

Actually, I don't really support either of these poll options because the issue isn't this easy. In my case, I don't want to vote for or against the passives, but instead want to vote for supporting the developers, and letting them take the game in the direction they want to go. These racial passives were changed from internal decisions being made, and we're not privy to the motivations behind those changes. It's possible that new game features are being planned which would give these passives greater utility; we are going to elsweyr or cat land within the next few months, after-all. This greater detection radius passive could come in handy in cat land. Even outside of that possibility, I want the developers to make the game they want to make.

It's telling that the developers vision for this was made during a time when there was no loremaster. It doesn't matter if the developers have a vision for making stealth detection more useful, it's completely against the established lore of the game and universe. If they wanted to make a race good at spotting hidden people, choose a race that it actually makes sense on.

In the Elder Scrolls universe, Bosmer are sneaky thieves. Stealth is a big part of why a lot of people chose Bosmer. Since we have been the lowest parsing of the stamina races, it's not like you pick Bosmer to top the DPS charts. You pick it because you like something about the race. Some people think they're cute, others have played Bosmer for decades because they fits our playstyle.

Now suddenly Bosmer, still at the bottom of stamina DPS, have had their last bit of racial identity stolen from them (there's no good way to implement the Green Pact in game, and despite being famously good archers in lore, we're only average in game).

You can say you want the developers to make the game they want to make, but they chose to work in an established universe. That carries some expectation that they'll work within the rules of the universe.

If you make a Harry Potter game, you don't make Heromine an idiot and House Elves 9' tall savage beasts. If you're making a Star Wars game, you don't make wookies cowardly and physically weak while Jedi be berserker warriors.

These are the kind of things that disenfranchise people with the game. The diehard Elder Scrolls fans will be the ones who stick with the game through thick and thin, until it's no longer an ES game, and those are not the people you want to lose.