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We need End Game Zones
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gepe87✭✭✭✭✭
✭More "locked" content to casual players? Some only play for zones cause they will never get through vet trials.Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General
If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language3 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I’m all for challenging DLC zones providing it doesn’t require grouping and it is rewarded well.
Not requiring grouping for most content is one of the biggest draws for ESO. Don't ruin this.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We had an end game zone. Craglorn and Upper Craglorn were the first two areas added to the game post launch. It was specifically designed and intended for end game. It was nerfed into oblivion because players did not want it that hard. Grouping was also removed but that is a separate story.
So if the player base did not want it then I do not see what has changed. I go for the content designed and intended to be a challenge that overall is not being nerfed, vet trials, and mostly HM. vMA is also a decent challenge. However, powercreep is still making all of this easier.
ZOS had the right idea with the Adventure Zones, but it was really too soon for them to be put in the game. That is my opinion. The game was not mature enough to support an end-game Adventure Zone concept, as implemented.
Many things have changed since then. I think that the game is now more than mature enough to support the idea. They have more players at the end-game stage, and the game systems and combat are years along from where they were.
From my perspective, the question is more along the lines of whether it fits into their vision for the game, and One Tamriel, as well as whether it fits into the monetization plan they have for the game.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus2 -
Thrawniel✭✭✭Only if there's no story content in that zone.
I am one of the many casual players who play only for story and would rather this game to be single player all along. I only tolerate multiplayer aspect of it.
So when original Craiglorn dropped, I quit the game. It felt like crossing the line for me - locking entire zone and its story behind group. As if dungeons were not enough. And at the time I thought this will be their way forward. So I did not want to play the game anymore.
I do not want to be in this position again just because hardcore players want more than dungeons (with new ones on regular basis, that are not puggable even on normal anymore) and trials (annually) and Imp City and Maelstrom arena.
If they could somehow implement selection of difficulty - it would be ok. But denying casual players the only content we can play, because you feel like there's not enough challenging stuff already? Just, go play Sekiro or smth? I heard it is out already.
3 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There were at least two problems with Craglorn:- Forced grouping for the story.
- Lousy rewards for the difficulty of combat.
I enjoyed slowly soloing a bit in Craglorn if I had to be there anyway, which was fairly often back when crafting maps were from non-random zones. But once I established I could do it I didn't see any point in the slog.
And long ago, when Guild Wars had a vet mode for its content, the places I returned often were generally ones with particular desirable drops.1 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »We had an end game zone. Craglorn and Upper Craglorn were the first two areas added to the game post launch. It was specifically designed and intended for end game. It was nerfed into oblivion because players did not want it that hard. Grouping was also removed but that is a separate story.
So if the player base did not want it then I do not see what has changed. I go for the content designed and intended to be a challenge that overall is not being nerfed, vet trials, and mostly HM. vMA is also a decent challenge. However, powercreep is still making all of this easier.
ZOS had the right idea with the Adventure Zones, but it was really too soon for them to be put in the game. That is my opinion. The game was not mature enough to support an end-game Adventure Zone concept, as implemented.
Many things have changed since then. I think that the game is now more than mature enough to support the idea. They have more players at the end-game stage, and the game systems and combat are years along from where they were.
From my perspective, the question is more along the lines of whether it fits into their vision for the game, and One Tamriel, as well as whether it fits into the monetization plan they have for the game.
I hear what you're saying, but I fear the player base really hasn't changed all that much. Recently ZOS has shared how low the completion rate is for vet dungeons, and I suspect that the amount of players routinely running though trials and other end-game content is even lower still. So I'm skeptical that increasing difficulty of quests, overland, other basic content would receive a better reception that Craglorn as originally implemented did at the time.
2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You obviously were not a launch player. What killed craglorn was raising VRs and leaving it the same. Craglorn was the hub of the game for months. What killed early eso was focusing on console and abandoning PC content for damn near a yearCarglorn
Guess you do not remember how that went..
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TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
...and that is the gist of the issue.More "locked" content to casual players? Some only play for zones cause they will never get through vet trials.
Yeah, it would be nice to have something a bit tougher as overland content... but if it gets too much, most casuals will react with "meh" and just not play it. And then it represents wasted effort on behalf of ZOS, and they cannot well justify wasting effort to the shareholders, can they now? And that is why they prefer to spend their efforts on things -everyone- can enjoy (and spend crowns on) rather then risk a "second craglorn"
That's why I say, the best balance for this is "Public Dungeon" - easily doable at any level with -one- friend, but also soloable once you know the game well enough, got a good gear setup and have some CP under your belt...
Anything tougher then that, and you better make it a sepeate smaller "one-optional-quest" area, like a dungeon or trial or arena...0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »We had an end game zone. Craglorn and Upper Craglorn were the first two areas added to the game post launch. It was specifically designed and intended for end game. It was nerfed into oblivion because players did not want it that hard. Grouping was also removed but that is a separate story.
So if the player base did not want it then I do not see what has changed. I go for the content designed and intended to be a challenge that overall is not being nerfed, vet trials, and mostly HM. vMA is also a decent challenge. However, powercreep is still making all of this easier.
ZOS had the right idea with the Adventure Zones, but it was really too soon for them to be put in the game. That is my opinion. The game was not mature enough to support an end-game Adventure Zone concept, as implemented.
Many things have changed since then. I think that the game is now more than mature enough to support the idea. They have more players at the end-game stage, and the game systems and combat are years along from where they were.
From my perspective, the question is more along the lines of whether it fits into their vision for the game, and One Tamriel, as well as whether it fits into the monetization plan they have for the game.
I hear what you're saying, but I fear the player base really hasn't changed all that much. Recently ZOS has shared how low the completion rate is for vet dungeons, and I suspect that the amount of players routinely running though trials and other end-game content is even lower still. So I'm skeptical that increasing difficulty of quests, overland, other basic content would receive a better reception that Craglorn as originally implemented did at the time.
I think that if they do a zone, it needs to be broader than Veteran content. This game has enough of a gap just getting to Veteran content, so making an entire gap zone does not make sense.
The problem that I see is that the gap between overland and Veteran is filled with a significantly ramped up player skill, character build, and investment of time. DPS becomes more important, and that means animation canceling and weaving are more important. Following the path is rewarded with a random assortment of Sweaty Jim's Special Gear, most of which is either sold or deconstructed.
My hope with the suggestion of a zone is that it would provide more reason, and more reward, for being there. My hope is that it provides a reason for people to go there, learn the skills necessary to bridge the gap, and do it in a manner that is not a grind.
If this is going to be nothing more than a Veteran and group-only zone, it probably is not worth the effort. It will be too unapproachable.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
Gythral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »
You obviously were not a launch player. What killed craglorn was raising VRs and leaving it the same. Craglorn was the hub of the game for months. What killed early eso was focusing on console and abandoning PC content for damn near a yearCarglorn
Guess you do not remember how that went..
What kill it was forced (and unobtainable) grouping for no rewards but the crafting mats!
What killed the difficulty for the game was the number of casuals that wanted early content made far easier, yes I do remember how much of a slog the stress tests were!
What will kill any new 'slog' zones is that so few players want 'hard slog' (look at the stats for vet completions) that it will end up as a dead no-go zone rather than anything else.“Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy0 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They could just build on the content - especially soloable content - in Craglorn. We have many WBs scattered through Craglorn that are exactly the same as each other, and they really didn't need to be. There are no soloable dungeons in Craglorn and you can't solo trials.
And as everyone has mentioned: Rewards. There's little incentive to go to a zone that doesn't offer much in terms of rewards. I go to Craglorn to farm mats sometimes but that's about it.0 -
crjs1✭✭✭✭✭Big no vote for me. Craglorn was a slog - and not just because of forced grouping - it was too inaccessible for a huge portion of the player base due to difficulty. It it was up to me I would nerf Craglorn more and make all the quests fully solo friendly (at the moment the story is a mess with previous main quests now group side quests).
The game needs to remain accessible, especially the narrative related elements. There is already tons of hard content, with vet and hard mode dungeons, trials, arenas and PVP. Just let us other folk enjoy the story! Never understood the obsession with ‘difficulty’.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭To those saying that I should buy a different game if I want something hard;
It's not about having hard content, it's about encouraging group play because whether you like it or not, ESO is an MMO.
If something is too hard talk to your guild, be Social, that is the point behind the idea of the thread.
This is why I think the best suggestion so far in this thread was the idea to make an entire zone like a "public dungeon".
Not end-game dungeon hard but just enough harder than the average zone that people will want to team up.
my add on would be to have a balance between Delves and "Group Delves" throughout the zone.
Have a main story that can be done solo Except for the final boss, make that a dungeon or a trial.Edited by Iccotak on March 31, 2019 8:46PM0 -
Gythral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To those saying that I should buy a different game if I want something hard;
It's not about having hard content, it's about encouraging group play because whether you like it or not, ESO is an MMO.
If something is too hard talk to your guild, be Social, that is the point behind the idea of the thread.
This is why I think the best suggestion so far in this thread was the idea to make an entire zone like a "public dungeon".
Not end-game dungeon hard but just enough harder than the average zone that people will want to team up.
my add on would be to have a balance between Delves and "Group Delves" throughout the zone.
Have a main story that can be done solo Except for the final boss, make that a dungeon or a trial.
Most MMOs have gone solo (since WoW) there's far more money in it...“Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy2 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know how this looks, guys? You're basically trying to chew off an arm while given a finger. Most. People. Don't. Like. Challenge. We are challenged by irl our entire lives, we want a vacation from it. Some people like to beat up a doll, some - to collect flowers. You're given dungeons, trials, arenas, you have group PVP for Mara's sake. Leave casuals alone. Let us enjoy the world without tearing our ass off. We might do it alone, or in a group, but don't force ur playstyle on everyone just because u r bored.Edited by TiaFrye on March 31, 2019 8:56PM5 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭To those saying that I should buy a different game if I want something hard;
It's not about having hard content, it's about encouraging group play because whether you like it or not, ESO is an MMO.
If something is too hard talk to your guild, be Social, that is the point behind the idea of the thread.
This is why I think the best suggestion so far in this thread was the idea to make an entire zone like a "public dungeon".
Not end-game dungeon hard but just enough harder than the average zone that people will want to team up.
my add on would be to have a balance between Delves and "Group Delves" throughout the zone.
Have a main story that can be done solo Except for the final boss, make that a dungeon or a trial.
That would mean most of the players would not finish the story of that zone. Ever. I'm not sure it's a good idea...4 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This ‘end game’ term makes no darned sense. You are not asking for end game, OP, you are asking for hard game. This already exists. Most people do not play it. And when more is made (and more is being made) most still do not play it. Games are supposed to be fun. Forced grouping, dying all the time, and being required to play one way or else is not fun for most players.4 -
Bradyfjord✭✭✭✭✭"It was just too much of a pain in the arse to find people at the same part of the quest as you."
This was a problem for early ESO design. It is hard for players to work on things together. Many mmo's have problems with this if they try to separate players on differing stages of a zone.
I prefer a system like Coldharbor. Coldharbor has a lot of semi-challenging content due to what it originally was (basically the last leveling zone of original game). The zone has content gated behind a quest (Lights of Meridia). Good gear will still overpower everything there however.
I believe ZOS considers the 'overworld zones' to be 'everybody content'. Trials and some dungeons are 'group required'.
Also, if you want challenges that don't exist in pve you could organize a group to try taking the map in Cyrodil. The unpredictable nature of pvp is quite challenging (during prime time), and requires its own kind of approach.
Edited for grammar.Edited by Bradyfjord on April 1, 2019 3:36AM0 -
ThanatosXR✭✭✭There is no endgame,its open world now not a theme park, you do whatca want build your character0
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SFDB✭✭✭✭✭
✭To those saying that I should buy a different game if I want something hard;
It's not about having hard content, it's about encouraging group play because whether you like it or not, ESO is an MMO.
ESO is an RPG. We should encourage more roleplaying.2 -
pod88kk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭New players = new money
They're going to cater to the newbies more as they see us 810+ players with cool skins and mounts & want those things too.
Long term players usually just sub & leave it at that so the devs probably aren't going to spend too much time & resources catering to us.0 -
lelink88✭✭✭
Agree, Eso is a RPG. I hate the concept about endgame content. What's endgame content? It's a *** idea make by WoW bcause they want you spend alot of time and pay more sub. In Eso everything is content, there are no suchthing "Endgame content". Not many ppl do all the questline, explore all the world and understand all of its beautiful and they still argue about "Content". It's not *** Wow, It's Eso, there are no suchthing "Endgame Content" here, only content. Don't make Tamriel bcome Azeroth, Azeroth is dying, and we don't want to follow it.Edited by lelink88 on April 1, 2019 3:57AM2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would love to have more quest hubs like in Craglorn.
Shada's Tear and Skyreach are fantastic pieces of content. They are easy enough that any group of 4 players can complete them, but challenging enough to be enjoyable for a solo vet player.1 -
Bradyfjord✭✭✭✭✭"What's endgame content?'
A core concept of mmo design. Progress through earlier content to more challenging content. Different mmo's handle the difficulty curve differently, which is what the OP wants to discuss.1 -
lelink88✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »I would love to have more quest hubs like in Craglorn.
Shada's Tear and Skyreach are fantastic pieces of content. They are easy enough that any group of 4 players can complete them, but challenging enough to be enjoyable for a solo vet player.
in that case I agree0 -
SFDB✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Agree, Eso is a RPG. I hate the concept about endgame content. What's endgame content? It's a *** idea make by WoW bcause they want you spend alot of time and pay more sub. In Eso everything is content, there are no suchthing "Endgame content". Not many ppl do all the questline, explore all the world and understand all of its beautiful and they still argue about "Content". It's not *** Wow, It's Eso, there are no suchthing "Endgame Content" here, only content. Don't make Tamriel bcome Azeroth, Azeroth is dying, and we don't want to follow it.
Could reinterpret the meaning of endgame content. Why not have RPG AS endgame? Like, you've earned your stripes, gotten through everything and proven your worth, now you are thrust into a drama that will make you head of a tiny province in Cyrodiil. Are you the scholarly type, and make it a center of magic and learning, or a thug who acts as a petty tyrant sheltering raiders into neighboring territories, or a clerical bent that seeks to make an enlightened island or holiness, or a soldier who sees it as a first step to restoring sanity to the world, or others? Have the province shaped by your choices in daily missions and maybe hold court every once in a while. RPG is endgame, my friend!0 -
ThanatosXR✭✭✭Bradyfjord wrote: »"What's endgame content?'
A core concept of mmo design. Progress through earlier content to more challenging content. Different mmo's handle the difficulty curve differently, which is what the OP wants to discuss.
Thats a concept of theme park mmos and theres a million of then to play
https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/penelopae/blog/rpg-defined-what-is-a-themepark-mmo/89885/0
