DocFrost72, Jeremy, perogwin_ESO, I can certainly understand your point of view.

I suspect that some of the difference of opinion between us is in how we are looking at "normal".

Certainly, the award ZOS received is in large part due to their choice to include LGBTQ NPCs and their stories as a perfectly normal part of life in Tamriel.

Sadly, storytelling of that nature is not the norm in video games. Many do not include LGBTQ NPCs or the treatment is not tastefully handled as we would hope for anyone, LGBTQ or heterosexual. When that happens, how is it to be handled in a way that doesn't set apart the LGBTQ community?

It feels a little like a Catch 22 to me. The gaming community is getting better at good representation - ESO is one such example. But apparently praising examples that do it well is separating out the LGBTQ community as that community expressing their differences while trying to be treated as normal.

I view this award in the historical context of "Hey, LGBTQ people either haven't been present in games at all, or were represented poorly. Here are some games that do it well, treating us like normal people!"

Treating people like normal people regardless of race, sexual orientation, etc is a really low bar to clear. Its kind of embarrassing really that more games can't manage it. If more games did - treating LGBTQ people like they are perfectly normal people in the game world just like they are perfectly normal people in our real world - then there wouldn't be any need for "special" awards or extra categories that "separate" the community that recognize the few games that actually manage it.

I don't think we're at the point where enough games clear that really low bar. So rather than tell the LGBTQ community to stop celebrating those games because it emphasizes their differences, I'd rather than video games begin to reflect a wider view of "normality" by treating those "differences" as perfectly normal than they already do so that there isn't a need for spearate awards.

ESO, to its credit, treats LGBTQ NPCs as a normal and present part of their world and storytelling. I want ESO's approach to become the norm for games, not the exception to the rule, and then maybe we'll see the desire for separate awards fade because they simply aren't needed anymore.

Anyways, thanks for the reasoned conversation.

AnnoyingWizard wrote: »

I notice a decent amount of people providing logical counter-arguments about how “people are people” and should be treated as such. That is precisely what most LGBTQ people want. The problem is, that’s not reality. And those opposed to homosexuality, whether for personal, religious, or other reasons, do, in fact, define homosexuals based on sexual orientation. Telling a homosexual that if they “just acted normal” or just treated homosexuality as a normality, isn’t realistic or productive, because it’s not homosexuals creating that mindset.

Society as a whole has made some awesome progress in regards to respecting and humanizing LGBTQ. We have gained a good bit of equality. But it isn’t on equal footing with heterosexuals. And representation (like in games for example) is one particular area that has been historically/currently lacking. That’s why ESO getting this award is such a big deal to some.

This is just one of those continued steps to gaining full equality and “normalizing” homosexuality.

I disagree. It's very realistic and productive to say people should just start treating homosexuality as a normal part of humanity. Because it is.

I can understand why there are those who defend the practice of singling it out as something special due to society's treatment of homosexuals - especially in the past. And that's fine and something I can understand. But it's not the end result we should all be looking for. And there is going to come a point in time when doing so is going to be more counter productive to the goals of equality than productive. Though I'm not sure if we are at that point just yet.

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I actually haven't, truth be told. I'd imagine being trans is a lot less "intensive" and a lot more thorough in a world where magic exists, so that's neat they added it.

Make sure to run the House of Reverie Story Arc in the town of Rellenthil on Summerset, it was really well done!

I enjoyed this quest. Well done for sure

AnnoyingWizard wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

AnnoyingWizard wrote: »

I notice a decent amount of people providing logical counter-arguments about how “people are people” and should be treated as such. That is precisely what most LGBTQ people want. The problem is, that’s not reality. And those opposed to homosexuality, whether for personal, religious, or other reasons, do, in fact, define homosexuals based on sexual orientation. Telling a homosexual that if they “just acted normal” or just treated homosexuality as a normality, isn’t realistic or productive, because it’s not homosexuals creating that mindset.

Society as a whole has made some awesome progress in regards to respecting and humanizing LGBTQ. We have gained a good bit of equality. But it isn’t on equal footing with heterosexuals. And representation (like in games for example) is one particular area that has been historically/currently lacking. That’s why ESO getting this award is such a big deal to some.

This is just one of those continued steps to gaining full equality and “normalizing” homosexuality.

I disagree. It's very realistic and productive to say people should just start treating homosexuality as a normal part of humanity. Because it is.

I can understand why there are those who defend the practice of singling it out as something special due to society's treatment of homosexuals - especially in the past. And that's fine and something I can understand. But it's not the end result we should all be looking for. And there is going to come a point in time when doing so is going to be more counter productive to the goals of equality than productive. Though I'm not sure if we are at that point just yet.

My stipulation is telling homosexuals specifically that homosexuality should be treated as normal is counterproductive. Telling others who are not, or who oppose it, would be. In that part, I fully agree with you.

If there ever comes a time where homosexuality/bisexuality/transgender does become truly normalized, and full equality exists, things like Pride Parades or awards for representation would become unnecessary. At that point, I’d also fully agree it’d be counterproductive. But we’re not there, yet.

I think we mostly agree then.

mayasunrising wrote: »

FleetwoodSmack wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

If you want to be equals so much then why are you so desperately separating yourselves from us, people that just want to be.

Because not everyone has to have the same attitude as you. Because many are tired of being abused and harassed for being who they are. Yes, it still happens. Because people are straight up everyone's nose and nobody bats an eye, yet two men/women holding hands are somehow still flaunting their sexuality. Need I go on?

Here's something to further extrapolate on the issue (US laws).

• Transgendered effectively have no death rights, meaning their families can cut their hair and force them to be the gender they felt trapped by in several states.
• LGBT in same-sex marriages can still be denied healthcare, housing, or worker rights in several states.
• Same-sex married couples can also be denied specific rights in regards to taking care of their spouse and their end of life wishes.

I could go on and on, but this is why there's a need for inclusiveness. Because there are some places in this world where the LGBT are still murdered in broad daylight for who they are. The LGBT never tried to separate themselves in the first place, but people keep telling themselves that and their children that because they're just toxic.

I also love that people are raging about an award. Given out by an LGBT award organization.

Well said @FleetwoodSmack ! 99% of the time - in my experience as a member of the LGBTQ community - when the community is crying out for rights is is not ADDITIONAL but EQUAL rights we are asking for. People say "why must we treat you as snowflakes/differently then anyone treats us." We say, "We agree, can you please let us get married/love/live/pee in peace now?"

I'm very excited that ESO was given this award and very grateful that ZOS has chosen normalization and inclusiveness as part of their mission with ESO. It is one of the main reasons I have chosen to sub to the game and likely will continue to do so. Congrats ZOS and thank you! Keep it up!

I love this too I've missed that approach so much in games. Bioware used to be fantastic at normalization, at having a character's orientation being a natural part of who they were. Anet's pretty ok at it too still. ZOS' approach has been refreshing after Bioware went full-on "teaching moment." I love how the stories feel natural and organic.

Well done!

Interesting award. The only instance I remember are those 2 female Dunmer in vivec city.

Way to go, you guys!

Still wondering how much these award cost zenimax?

People enjoy characters they can relate to. I’m glad that LGBTQ folks find this in ESO. No reason for them not to exist, I just think straight folks get desensitized by seeing ‘normal’ straight couples portrayed and notice the other couples/preferences more prominently because it’s only fairly recently like the last 20 years or less that it’s been portrayed in a non negative light and made more visible.

Any award that Zos wins is good for the game. That being said , as long as they keep it to its current state I’m completely fine with it. If they go full BIOWARE (ME:Andromeda) to appease a social group then I hope ESO meets Andromeda’s fate.
I game to get away from the real world for a little while each day.