Revelzdevelz wrote: »

We been using staff back bar for a very long time. I think dbl SnB is boring so if not the destro staff, what?

xaraan wrote: »

I mean, the question posed in opening post is much grander than just enchants.

I definitely think they should add a passive to One Hand Shield to increase the power of an enchant or something similar. I already ran a back bar staff, so it's not a huge deal to me, but I don't like variety and future build options taken away, especially in a role that is already been sliding down and down for years now with every patch making tanking less interesting. I also don't like tying some of the needs to another weapon like 2H and just trying to make another forced secondary tanking weapon like staff.

But tanks need a lot more work than just enchant worries. The classes aren't balanced well, DK still reigns with Warden fighting for close second, especially depending on needs based on content. Sorcs can be very tanky and have encase, but don't offer a lot of group utility past that. The tools templars have are very solid, but they still lack any real CC (having to turn to silver shards and blow all their stam and/or time stop and blow all their magicka and even those aren't great options compared to class tools of warden, dk or sorc) and having no health based self heal (this usually only matters when doing the hardest content like new vHM dungeons or trials. And Nightblades... sorry guys, you have been truly forgotten. As someone that started the tanking game with a NB tank, I'm saddened by the state of them. They have allowed them lose the sap builds that made them interesting, but offered nothing in return. No real CC (fear isn't a good option for tanking imo) past the same options Templars have out of class, which aren't sub-par. No great self heals (the new dark cloak heal is a short HoT barely stronger than a good healers mutagen). No great group utility past the minor buffs any NB already adds to the group. And no shields, plus Mirage is much less useful than it used to be imo (though it still has its uses).

Gear options for tanking are also lackluster. Granted, if you don't care about end game you can create some fun and interesting builds, but for the most part the sets folks look for in a main tank will often be Ebon (one of the oldest sets in the game) and Alkosh (a several year old trial dps set that is better for tanks than dps to use simply b/c of the 5 pc bonus). Personally, as much as I hate nerfs in some instances, I just wish they'd drop the hammer on Alkosh. Whether they make it only give the armor debuff to the person using it, or make it physical only, or make it a minor or major debuff, or some other category debuff and offer that same debuff in future sets, I'm tired of running it. Due to power creep they won't offer anything better and if they did and made it heavy, then we'd just have to wear both. Trust me, I see the reason we wear it as tanks and why we use it over a dps using it, but it does get old. As excited as I am to try out necro tanking, it depresses me that I'll be farming a 5th set of Ebon and Alkosh for them.

And lastly, they just need to get better and designing dungeons and trials. I haven't run the new dungeons much or obviously the new Elswyr trial, so maybe they have made huge improvements. But some of the lazy shortcuts they take to add challenge comes off more annoying than challenging - more and more one shot mechanics, hits that scale to health so no matter how much work you put into your health build you still go down to 10% or whatever bar they set when smacked, using oblivion damage to make all the work you did creating a tanky character a waste of time and effort, using non-purgable bleeds b/c we like putting skills in the game and then making them useless. Also, when I'm talking one-shots, I just don't mean tank one-shots or health check hits, but looking at MHK - almost every add has a heavy attack that will one shot most dps - and you know, tanks aren't "meant" to taunt every add in a run right? But we will put in mobs that will kill your team if you don't taunt them all, so really, yes you are meant to taunt everything. Also, you don't need AoE taunts, but we will have several of those adds that all need to be taunted pop up at the same time, so really.. the need is there, just not the tools. I actually like that they do not have an AoE taunt in the game, but I do wish they remembered that when they designed fights. And let's just quit acting like this has anything to do with challenge, b/c once the rest of us make it through, the dungeons are nerfed so more and more people can easily beat what took others work to achieve. And these aren't bug fixes, this is making dungeons significantly easier for no reason than to give low skilled players something for nothing. If you aren't going to stick by a design, then just save us all the slap in the face and make it that weak to start with. All you are doing zos is creating a community of players that won't learn mechanics because they feel like they don't need to and then get frustrated when they get to new content that requires it and can't beat it (and also b/c they see top teams ignoring mechanics anyway b/c of their dps and think that means they can too). I mean, at this point you are turning old DLC dungeons more and more into the same old dungeons where you barely (or don't) need a tank and healer and yet wonder why people don't like tanking? Nothing like nerfing a role every patch for two plus years, making all new content miserable for them, and making all old content not need them to really make a role desirable.

And lastly.. don't even get me started in PvP. Players honestly don't know what they are complaining about half the time when they go on and on about how horrible tanks are. You could have players tanky b/c a little support is what they need and a friend knows how to help them, you have tanks that are tanky b/c they are built so selfishly they can't do anything but be a damage sponge until they die, you have players that are tanky b/c of a variety of builds that don't even have anything to do with heavy armor, you have players that think players are tanky b/c they are horrible players. I've been in cyro with a variety of tanky builds and have seen a dozen players struggle to kill my tank that was doing nothing offensive b/c I had to dump everything I had into staying alive and that same tank can get burned down by a couple players that know what they are doing. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some things that need to be addressed time to time, especially when you are talking about being super tanky and dealing crazy burst damage, but for the most part listening to the repeated calls to tankiness regarding pvp has really hurt the role and builds throughout the game even in pve because some of the changes have not been necessary (and were never reversed once we've seen they weren't necessary).

Yoku wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Honestly ? IDK. I think at this point the only way would be to make a complete tanking and dungeon mechanics overhaul.

I remember how tank role used to look like in the past. Compared to what it is now, tanks have been reduced simply to buff spammers. End game tanking is getting worse & worse.

Also pretty much all clases aside from DK & Warden have nothing to offer as a tank.
I miss my Hybrid NB Sap Tank...

i disagree with that endgame tanking is getting worse, rather the oppisite!! a tank is suppost to buff and debuff and it should be your goal to get it done perfect, not some hybrit thingy that is suppost to deal some kind of dmg but just does not and rather stands in the way then actually making their job. my boyfriend playes NB tank and we are raiding together. there is nothing wrong with that, you just have to know how to play your class, thats all. ofc tanking is harder nowdays, but also more fun.

Protossyder wrote: »

Even though we cry about nerfes happening all the time, the dps increased every patch which made content easier. Reducing the effectiveness of 1 handed weapons was the right step. Most players adapted anyways by now.

Aside from that: Many tanks were using different weapons on their back bars for ages already.
E.g.: Bow (dot tank), Healing staff (vDSA with 3 stam dds for example), Frost staff (for mag based tanking), Lightning staff (for off balance and more utility)

Having more variety isn't a bad thing, get over it. And if you didn't care about providing more utility to your group by using anything different than the old double SnB before I really doubt that you truly care about 1k less penetration now.

PS: healers can use infused crushing too.

Jeremy wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

The thread went from discussion of S&B nerf to general discussion of what's wrong with tanking and how to make tanking great again - and I don't think that improving passives or giving more tanking utility would cut it.

Sure, reverting the nerf will make tank's life better. More utility, more group support. But I think that those who call for granting more directly dealt damage to tanks are also those closest to the root of the problem with tanking in general. Tanking is a support role (healing too, for that matter). It requires the mindset for it, and part of the reason why it's not quite as fun is built into the very concept of tanking. Tanking does not offer what DPS does: instant gratification. Damage dealer gets to stab and slash things (throw fireballs, cast lightnings on their heads), see their health bar going down, smite the evil and see it falling on the ground. Action results in a visible, tangible reward. It's easily measurable in visible numbers of amount of righteous hurt delivered.

Not so with tanking. Tank facilitates. Tank's work is hard to quantify. When it's done very well, it's unnoticed and taken for granted. There's nothing left to brag about. Group struggles? Tank/healer to blame. Group breezes through content? Good damage dealers; the only praise for tank will be - 'nice debuffing, running Alkosh, no?'. (For healers, even less of that.) But above all, tank isn't directly involved into the group's main activity: killing stuff. We're raised on instant gratification, and there's none to be had for tanks, they have to get by without that (very important - not just in games, but everywhere) chunk of enjoyment, compensating by their mind's attunement to the support role, and for most people, it can't fill the natural need to be directly involved and get immediate feedback.

So, I don't think that changing passives or reverting the nerf will miraculously make tank role glorious and desired. Not to the point of suddenly making it fun for a lot more people and solving queue issues. Part of the reason why I, for instance, prefer tanking with friends and guildmates (aside from not being judged, because I started tanking much later than dealing damage) - this way, there's a stronger sense of accomplishing things together, with everyone being important, and not a competition on who contributes most. Because as a tank, I'm not automatically given an instant pat on the shoulder for job well done, the way DDs are. Don't think it's going to change.

While an intelligent post - I disagree with it on many different levels. Tanks play a very dominate role in the group. They are essentially the group leader and protect everyone from death. I really don't see how you can have a more significant role in a group or why anyone would consider such a role as support or a role that's hard to appreciate. So I don't t believe that's the issue. If anything - I believe more people avoid the role of tanking because it's too stressful for them.

In any case: this isn't a problem unique to ESO. Every MMORPG I have ever played has a shortage of tanks where as they are all overflowing with damage-dealers. This is true even on games where tanks were like mana from Heaven and treated like royalty. So I don't buy this argument that it's because they are hard to appreciate. In fact I would argue a well-played tank is probably one of the most appreciated and easy to quantify role in the group. When you have a bad tank, you will know it.

I believe what might encourage more people to play as tanks on this game is improve upon their blocking mechanisms - which is sloppily implemented, often obscured and difficult to pay attention to at times.